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Attitudes to non-human life and how religious belief might affect this

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
I think religious beliefs impact greatly on how humans treat animals and each other. Bible believers e.g. see humans as superior to animals intellectually, creatively and in many other ways....with moral capacity, conscience, empathy, imagination, concept of past, present and future.....we are superior to animals....even those who appear to be similar to ourselves. How we use those qualities however, is another story. :(

The Bible’s narrative places humans as representatives of the Creator here, overseeing the lives of other animals as fellow inhabitants of planet earth, to act as caretakers for them. No other creature displays this capacity. Those in the animal kingdom govern their lives and activities largely by pre-programmed instinct. (which to me is a strong indicator of an Intelligent Programmer) This ensures their survival and man was supposed to be their guardians to make sure that their environment could sustain them and correct anything that got out of balance in some way.

The Bible also explains why humans lost their capacity to represent the Creator in this important role, and why we now treat both animal and human life as expendable if we have a selfish or justifiable motive for mistreating or killing them.

In ancient cultures such as the American Indians, respect for the life of an animal consumed as food was always shown. The Great Spirit was thanked for the provision of food for the tribe and every part of the animal served a purpose...nothing was wasted. The Provider, as well as the animal was always given due respect.

If we treat animals as the Creator intended, then we will co-exist with them and give them the respect they deserve. The videos you provided demonstrate that we have an enormous capacity for peaceful co-existence with animals (even wild animals) and other humans, if we see them as the Creator does. Not as enemies to be hunted down, or killed for sport, or used for experimentation known to deliberately produce suffering for reasons of vanity in the cosmetic industry.

If humans cannot respect human life, how can we expect them to value animal life?

Respect for all life should be the norm......but humans got carried away with their own importance and ruined everything. I have a strong belief that all things will be restored to the way they should be, in the very near future. :)

I can understand how many religions would see it this way, our stewardship over other life, but it seems to me that all the rest of life would get on fine if we never existed. This poem sums it up for me (published in 1920, so shortly after WWI):

There Will Come Soft Rains by Sara Teasdale

There will come soft rains and the smell of the ground,
And swallows circling with their shimmering sound;

And frogs in the pools singing at night,
And wild plum-trees in tremulous light;

Robins will wear their feathery fire
Whistling their whims on a low fence-wire;

And not one will know of the war, not one
Will care at last when it is done.

Not one would mind, neither bird nor tree
If mankind perished utterly;

And Spring herself, when she woke at dawn,
Would scarcely know that we were gone.
 
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Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
The little girl in the bonus segment at the end could have been me. Seriously, I can see myself in that child so clearly. I really don't have words to express the love I feel for animals. They make life worth living, and I owe so much to them (even to the little kitten which, as I type, is trying to climb up my legs to get in my lap an digging her claws into me as she does). When I wake up each morning and look into the six little eyes of my furry kids, my heart absolutely bursts with love for them.

Hard not to see them enriching our live so much is it. :) What I find so intriguing, apart from the various facets of behaviour so much like humans, is the tolerance and cooperation often seen between different animal species. That too is so very endearing. We had a cat when I was very young but I've not had any pets in later life. :(
 
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Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
I'm not an "either/or" type of person. How I treat a dolphin will be different than how I treat a worm. I feel "personhood" is a spectrum, not a concrete thing, much like how life becomes vague and ill-defined when you get to the point of viruses and such. I try not to step on bugs but I won't cry if I do accidentally because I'm bigger than them and sometimes it's unavoidable. I don't prefer getting rid of ant colonies because I figure ant colonies prevent termite colonies, what with territorial-ism and stuff. I think any nonhuman who exhibits a personality or passes the mirror test should be counted as a person, even if we don't give full civil rights (not because I don't think they deserve it, but I wonder why nonhumans would even CARE since they don't participate in our abstract government). I can't stop from killing lifeforms. My immune system kills microscopic lifeforms I'm unaware of. I can only try "damage control".

Very much like my own beliefs concerning other life - as the clothes moths and mosquitos unfortunately know for the short time we are acquainted. ;)
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
We altered our psychology through culture, but our neurology and psychology remains largely Pleistocene. our civilized behavior is a veneer.
You can dress an ape in a tuxedo and teach it which fork to use, but deep down, it remains an ape.
In fact, historically it's been used to excuse and justify all manner of exploitation and cruelty. We remain tribal. Scratch the surface and we're killer apes.
Ethology does show an innate sense of 'morality' in many animals, but clearly our facility in overriding it when expedient is evidence of its shallowness.

I mostly agree with all this, that we have our evolved nature and we have a brain trying to make sense of ourselves and all other life. Hopefully the latter will tend to make sense of all this before we destroy ourselves. The last sentence though would indicate the origins of moral behaviour in our ancestors rather than in religions probably?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I am well aware of how the Bible believers and other Abrahamic religious believers view animals as superior to humans. :rolleyes: One cannot deny that humans are more intelligent and have other qualities that the non-human animals do not have, but I very much dislike the whole idea that humans are superior. Of course, one of the religious arguments is that only humans can know and love God so that makes them better, and I do not go for that one either. :(

You are free to believe whatever you like. Humans were originally placed here as caretakers.....they were supposed to represent the Creator and were given the necessary qualities to reflect his standard of care. No animals worships the Creator, only we do that. But something went horribly wrong at the beginning and all of this planet's inhabitants are worse off because of it.

Why did (a purportedly benevolent) God create animals only to allow them to suffer and die, sometimes horrible deaths? That is what the Bible believers and all the others who believe what they do need to answer.

The Bible answers that for us. This is not the world that God created for us....this world with all it suffering is the creation of man alienated from his Creator. I though that man's inhumanity to man was all that was needed to prove this. His treatment of animals is sometimes better that his treatment of fellow humans.

Unfortunately, any answers they come up with will be what the nonbelievers call religious apologetics. ;)

I have no need of apologetics....the Bible provides all the answers I need. If they don't for you, then what is left to be said.....? I don't think the Creator has a "Complaints Department". :p

If you value animals more than humans, I can see why this can be the case for some people....but here in Australia feral cats, dogs, pigs, camels, water buffalo and horses are damaging the ecology in ways that are proving to be very detrimental to the native species. All those are introduced animals that have been dumped in bushland or desert regions to run wild and breed, wreaking havoc on the delicate balance of nature. Humans did that too. Aren't we just the best caretakers ever? :rolleyes:
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I can understand how many religions would see it this way, our stewardship over other life, but it seems to me that all the rest of life would get on fine if we never existed.

Probably true, but who would be around to admire the sunsets and the natural beauty of this earth? I have never seen an animal express appreciation for aesthetic beauty...have you? Any reaction to what we see as beautiful in a living things is more like a trigger to perpetuate their species....it is not done consciously or planned.

This poem sums it up for me:

There Will Come Soft Rains by Sara Teasdale

There will come soft rains and the smell of the ground,
And swallows circling with their shimmering sound;

And frogs in the pools singing at night,
And wild plum-trees in tremulous light;

Robins will wear their feathery fire
Whistling their whims on a low fence-wire;

And not one will know of the war, not one
Will care at last when it is done.

Not one would mind, neither bird nor tree
If mankind perished utterly;

And Spring herself, when she woke at dawn,
Would scarcely know that we were gone.

Man in his present state is a menace to himself and everything else.
Humans would be better off without other humans. :confused:
The planet would be better off without humans.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
All animals put their needs above other species' needs, we just have more harmful ways we are able to exercise this I suppose.
True that, but in the case of other animals they have few behavioral options. They aren't true moral agents.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
Probably true, but who would be around to admire the sunsets and the natural beauty of this earth? I have never seen an animal express appreciation for aesthetic beauty...have you? Any reaction to what we see as beautiful in a living things is more like a trigger to perpetuate their species....it is not done consciously or planned.
.

Well, I can't say that I have (seen an animal do so) but I'm hardly qualified here - not being an animal behaviour expert - but I wouldn't rule it out of the question. And anyway, what exactly matters that we seem to be the only ones doing so. Weighing up our culture and success against all animal life is a bit one-sided - and unfair. Why not go back several million years when we did not feel so cocky and ask the question then? We were just another species fighting it out with all the rest - and it seems we got lucky. I truly don't see humans as being that significant in the larger scheme of things - and not a religious one I might add - especially when we do know the extent of the universe, the number of galaxies, the number of stars, and the equally numerous number of planets. Are we really that special? It's taken us an awful long time to get where we are at the moment - if one believes the science.
 
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Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
Considering the real possibility of being mauled or killed. Yes. The human is definitely dumber than the animal.

Obviously the humans in these encounters had a suspicion that the various animals could remember them and still have the same feelings towards them as they did when younger. The interesting thing is that it does appear to be the case across a wide spectrum of species, even the really dangerous animals. We know that most of this is probably down to imprinting, but even so, it must tell us something that this occurs across so many species and that they can suppress any natural tendencies to see us as food.
 
True, it will be slow progress, but I'm wondering about those animals a bit closer to humans. Will we get to understand them better such that we treat them rather differently before possibly wiping them out?

Many of them don't have much time for slow progress unfortunately. I'm very pessimistic on orang-utans surviving. Too much money to be made from timber and palm oil, and no will from the powers that be to stop it.

To drive through Sumatra to their habitat, you drive for several hours of palm oil plantations that used to be pristine rainforest. These plantations have a limited life span so more keep needing to be created.

Orang-utans are killed as pests if they go onto these plantations, others kill the mother to take the baby to sell as a pet.

Some of this is caused by greed, some is caused by poverty. I doubt things will change soon. :(
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
Many of them don't have much time for slow progress unfortunately. I'm very pessimistic on orang-utans surviving. Too much money to be made from timber and palm oil, and no will from the powers that be to stop it.

To drive through Sumatra to their habitat, you drive for several hours of palm oil plantations that used to be pristine rainforest. These plantations have a limited life span so more keep needing to be created.

Orang-utans are killed as pests if they go onto these plantations, others kill the mother to take the baby to sell as a pet.

Some of this is caused by greed, some is caused by poverty. I doubt things will change soon. :(

The treatment of all the primates closer to humans tends to be unfortunate to say the least. There was a TV programme in the UK recently about the presenter (Chris Packham) going back to Sumatra to see how a young girl had fared after 20 years. She apparently was now a victim of the palm oil business.

Chris Packham: In Search of the Lost Girl
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Hard not to see them enriching our live so much is it. :) What I find so intriguing, apart from the various facets of behaviour so much like humans, is the tolerance and cooperation often seen between different animal species. That too is so very endearing.
I know! Seeing videos of animals who are "supposed to" be enemies, but who love one another just gets to me. You know, if they can do it, why can't we humans?

We had a cat when I was very young but I've not had any pets in later life. :(
Well, you've got to do something about that!
 

Ponder This

Well-Known Member
The Moral Status of Animals (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

"Is there something distinctive about humanity that justifies the idea that humans have moral status while non-humans do not? Providing an answer to this question has become increasingly important among philosophers as well as those outside of philosophy who are interested in our treatment of non-human animals. For some, answering this question will enable us to better understand the nature of human beings and the proper scope of our moral obligations. Some argue that there is an answer that can distinguish humans from the rest of the natural world. Many of those who accept this answer are interested in justifying certain human practices towards non-humans — practices that cause pain, discomfort, suffering and death. This latter group expects that in answering the question in a particular way, humans will be justified in granting moral consideration to other humans that is neither required nor justified when considering non-human animals. In contrast to this view, an increasing number of philosophers have argued that while humans are different in a variety of ways from each other and other animals, these differences do not provide a philosophical defense for denying non-human animals moral consideration. What the basis of moral consideration is and what it amounts to has been the source of much disagreement."

As many might have gleaned from my avatar, I do have a particular interest in our attitudes to other life, particularly those closer to humans in many ways. So not just a cheeky monkey then, although if seen this way I wouldn't be too offended! :p

The question then is, to what extent does any religious belief affect how you view other life on Earth, particularly those seemingly displaying many of the things that we tend to take for granted as being in the human realm, such as - intelligence, social bonding, morality, ability to interact meaningfully with other species (not just eating them!), etc., and is there any conflict between what you believe compared with any religious teaching?

For myself, I think we will possibly be at a turning point over the next decades, since we are continually discovering much about animal behaviour and life so as to challenge any previous thinking and how we should treat other species, especially those showing very human-like traits and/or behaviour. There is even the possibility, for example, that AI might be the breakthrough into animal communication, with us perhaps be able to do this with some of the species displaying language skills quite similar to our own. And of course there are huge implications as to how we should treat other life when we do discover so much more about them.

Moral consideration of the animal kingdom are not new, but people today like to think that it is new.
This is because people today like to think that they are superior to people who came before them, whether it be technologically or morally.

If philosophers are struggling so hard with the question, it just means they are playing catch up. I think that religious tenets generally back the proposition that people ought to take their interactions with the animal kingdom under some moral consideration.
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
Probably true, but who would be around to admire the sunsets and the natural beauty of this earth?
The other life forms. Plants in particular get a lot out of sunshine. :)

I have never seen an animal express appreciation for aesthetic beauty...have you?
I live on a hill. My dogs like to go up the hill in the backyard and stare at the surroundings in the valley below.

Any reaction to what we see as beautiful in a living things is more like a trigger to perpetuate their species....it is not done consciously or planned.
How would being human be any different? I'm sure pretty sunsets get some people in the mood.

Many of them don't have much time for slow progress unfortunately. I'm very pessimistic on orang-utans surviving. Too much money to be made from timber and palm oil, and no will from the powers that be to stop it.
So am I. However, I think it would be interesting to see if teaching them how to cook and stuff and see if that speeds up evolution a bit.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Obviously the humans in these encounters had a suspicion that the various animals could remember them and still have the same feelings towards them as they did when younger. The interesting thing is that it does appear to be the case across a wide spectrum of species, even the really dangerous animals. We know that most of this is probably down to imprinting, but even so, it must tell us something that this occurs across so many species and that they can suppress any natural tendencies to see us as food.
All I can say is the Darwin Awards awaits new nominees.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
You are free to believe whatever you like. Humans were originally placed here as caretakers.....they were supposed to represent the Creator and were given the necessary qualities to reflect his standard of care. No animals worships the Creator, only we do that. But something went horribly wrong at the beginning and all of this planet's inhabitants are worse off because of it.
I believe in evolution, so since animals were on earth long before humans I do not see how humans could have been the original caretakers... I do agree that we are their caretakers or we should be when that is necessary, and since we have a higher intelligence that is why we have been entrusted to do so.

“Briefly, it is not only their fellow human beings that the beloved of God must treat with mercy and compassion, rather must they show forth the utmost loving-kindness to every living creature. For in all physical respects, and where the animal spirit is concerned, the selfsame feelings are shared by animal and man. Man hath not grasped this truth, however, and he believeth that physical sensations are confined to human beings, wherefore is he unjust to the animals, and cruel.

And yet in truth, what difference is there when it cometh to physical sensations? The feelings are one and the same, whether ye inflict pain on man or on beast. There is no difference here whatever. And indeed ye do worse to harm an animal, for man hath a language, he can lodge a complaint, he can cry out and moan; if injured he can have recourse to the authorities and these will protect him from his aggressor. But the hapless beast is mute, able neither to express its hurt nor take its case to the authorities. If a man inflict a thousand ills upon a beast, it can neither ward him off with speech nor hale him into court. Therefore is it essential that ye show forth the utmost consideration to the animal, and that ye be even kinder to him than to your fellow man.

Train your children from their earliest days to be infinitely tender and loving to animals. If an animal be sick, let the children try to heal it, if it be hungry, let them feed it, if thirsty, let them quench its thirst, if weary, let them see that it rests.”
Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, pp. 158-159

I do not believe that anything went horribly wrong since I do not believe in “The Fall” but I rather believe that humans are born good, with the ability to reflect all the attributes of God. After we are born we are able to choose between good and evil and we become differentiated by the free will choices they make which are based upon a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. That is when can and often do go wrong, often horribly wrong. Nevertheless, the world is full of good people who reflect the attributes of God.
Trailblazer said: Why did (a purportedly benevolent) God create animals only to allow them to suffer and die, sometimes horrible deaths? That is what the Bible believers and all the others who believe what they do need to answer.

Deeje said: The Bible answers that for us. This is not the world that God created for us....this world with all it suffering is the creation of man alienated from his Creator. I though that man's inhumanity to man was all that was needed to prove this. His treatment of animals is sometimes better that his treatment of fellow humans.
I agree with that in part. One reason we suffer in this world is because we are alienated from God, but it is also the nature of the material world to cause suffering. Moreover, this world was created for us to live in temporarily, but it certainly is not our permanent home, and it is just a small part of our total existence. In that sense many of my religion say we should not complain and rather endure, but clearly some have to endure more than others. I could go on and on about that but this thread is about animals, not humans. :rolleyes: Suffice to say, animals are one reason I am able to endure this world, although that is a double-edged sword because whet we love we lose eventually. The only solution to that is to live in the present and take things as they come.
I have no need of apologetics....the Bible provides all the answers I need. If they don't for you, then what is left to be said.....? I don't think the Creator has a "Complaints Department".
I know. That is my line when I talk to nonbelievers. It makes no logical sense for an All-Knowing and All-Powerful God to have a complaint department. :D

But that does not mean we cannot complain sometimes... Here in America we call it venting... God hears us even if He does not make any alterations. :)
If you value animals more than humans, I can see why this can be the case for some people....but here in Australia feral cats, dogs, pigs, camels, water buffalo and horses are damaging the ecology in ways that are proving to be very detrimental to the native species. All those are introduced animals that have been dumped in bushland or desert regions to run wild and breed, wreaking havoc on the delicate balance of nature. Humans did that too. Aren't we just the best caretakers ever?
I do not value animals more than humans, although I usually prefer their company. But I like the company of humans on forums, so I can have my cats and humans simultaneously, given my cats are right here all the time. I often have to move my laptop and mouse around to accommodate my Ellie because she insists on getting on my table. :)

But I was not talking about valuing animals, I was talking about animal suffering and why God allows it. One could argue that if humans were always kind to animals then there would be no animal suffering, but that does not solve the problem of animals in the wild. It is through no fault of theirs that those animals were dumped in bush land and desert regions and animals over-breed and thereby affect the balance of nature, because animals are driven by instinct... Some humans should know better than to breed just because they want to, especially when they do not have the emotional or financial means to take care of them. Humans in some countries also overpopulate the planet by having way too many children.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
The other life forms. Plants in particular get a lot out of sunshine. :)

But do they consciously appreciate it? :shrug:

I live on a hill. My dogs like to go up the hill in the backyard and stare at the surroundings in the valley below.

Animals are curious about anything that moves. It might be food on the move. Or for dogs, something to alert humans to.

I think it would be interesting to see if teaching them how to cook and stuff and see if that speeds up evolution a bit.

Monkey see....monkey do. :rolleyes: Apes are great mimics.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I believe in evolution, so since animals were on earth long before humans I do not see how humans could have been the original caretakers... I do agree that we are their caretakers or we should be when that is necessary, and since we have a higher intelligence that is why we have been entrusted to do so.

All creation exhibits a certain degree of self-sufficiency, so just because humans were created last, is of no real consequence when we consider the overall picture of the Creator selecting one planet out of countless billions to begin habitation of material life forms. In the big picture, I see this selection as one of many in the future. There is no reason for him to stop populating this vast universe if he so desires. But all projects have to have a beginning....I believe that we are just the beginning, and that all contingencies had to be covered here first so that future plans can be accomplished, incident free. It is unrealistic to assume that this one insignificant speck is all there is to God's purpose for his material universe.
That is purely speculative of course.
89.gif


I do not believe that anything went horribly wrong since I do not believe in “The Fall” but I rather believe that humans are born good, with the ability to reflect all the attributes of God.

How do you explain an all powerful being, capable of doing whatever he sets his mind to, creating living things with the propensity to go so horribly wrong? Man's inhumanity to man is monumental.....we humans are designed to reflect the Creator's attributes, but no one is born "good". Try not disciplining a toddler and see how much "good" they display. If we do not teach our children right from wrong at a very young age, then we have a recipe for anarchy. If there is no respect for authority...be that of parents, teachers, law enforcement or governments, what hope is there for turning out responsible adults capable of moral decisions and unselfishness? Think of the current generation as tomorrow's world leaders....:eek:

After we are born we are able to choose between good and evil and we become differentiated by the free will choices they make which are based upon a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. That is when can and often do go wrong, often horribly wrong. Nevertheless, the world is full of good people who reflect the attributes of God.

There are indeed many factors that contribute to a child's development, and who they will become as adults, but when you see those who fail at every level to demonstrate even a small amount of basic humanity.....what possible purpose could there be to their existence? What use does God have for them?

this world was created for us to live in temporarily, but it certainly is not our permanent home, and it is just a small part of our total existence.

I totally disagree. There is nothing in Genesis to indicate a natural cause of death or an afterlife of any description.
The Bible offers only a choice between life and death......obey and live...disobey and die. God has no room in his purpose for rebels. If you cannot obey him, you will have no future in his plans. There is nowhere else to go. I think that is the very simple message from the scriptures.

I do not believe that the Creator is the 'all-forgiving sop' that most people want to believe he is. :rolleyes:

Suffice to say, animals are one reason I am able to endure this world, although that is a double-edged sword because whet we love we lose eventually. The only solution to that is to live in the present and take things as they come.

Death seems so wrong...even for our cherished pets. But it is inevitable. There was no everlasting life in God's plan for them. When humans were created, God made them different from the animals, in that they had an expectation to go on living indefinitely....death is not programmed into humankind because we were not created to die.
When Adam and his wife succumbed to temptation in the garden, the one thing God provided to keep them alive forever, was withdrawn from them (Genesis 3:22-24).....they now had no superiority over the animals, as it says in Ecclesiastes 3:19-20....
"for there is an outcome for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit. So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile. All are going to the same place. They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust."

So just as all living creatures breathe the same air, so all go to the same place once breathing stops.

But that does not mean we cannot complain sometimes... Here in America we call it venting... God hears us even if He does not make any alterations. :)

What is the point of God hearing if he makes no alteration? We might as well be venting to the wall.
2mo5pow.gif

When we understand what is happening and what God is actively doing right now, it leaves no room for complaint. (Deuteronomy 32:4) God is doing exactly what he said he would do.

One could argue that if humans were always kind to animals then there would be no animal suffering, but that does not solve the problem of animals in the wild.

My favorite prophesy is in Isaiah....speaking about the rulership of the one who was sent by God to redeem obedient mankind, and to judge the world, it says.....

"And he will find delight in the fear of Jehovah
He will not judge by what appears to his eyes,
Nor reprove simply according to what his ears hear.


4 He will judge the lowly with fairness,

And with uprightness he will give reproof in behalf of the meek ones of the earth.

He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth
And put the wicked to death with the breath of his lips.



5 Righteousness will be the belt around his waist,
And faithfulness the belt of his hips.


6 The wolf will reside for a while with the lamb,

And with the young goat the leopard will lie down,
And the calf and the lion and the fattened animal will all be together;
And a little boy will lead them.


7 The cow and the bear will feed together,
And their young will lie down together.

The lion will eat straw like the bull.


8 The nursing child will play over the lair of a cobra,
And a weaned child will put his hand over the den of a poisonous snake.


9 They will not cause any harm
Or any ruin in all my holy mountain,
Because the earth will certainly be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah

As the waters cover the sea." (Isaiah 11:3-9)

This is what I believe a world ruled by God will mean.

Some humans should know better than to breed just because they want to, especially when they do not have the emotional or financial means to take care of them. Humans in some countries also overpopulate the planet by having way too many children.

In many such countries, poverty drives them to have as many children as they can because there is a chance that some of them may survive to support their parents in their old age. Poor nations do not care for the aged....families have to do that. We in the West do not understand that level of poverty, or what drives the survival instinct in creatures that were not designed for old age, sickness or death. None of that was ever in God's first purpose for humankind. :(

I believe it will all be remedied according to the plan implemented back in Eden. All things will go back to the beginning, with lessons learned and precedents set for all time to come.
We have much to look forward to.
bliss.gif
 
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