Athiests and Agnostics, your decisive moment

[Sabour]

Of course I have considered the possibility. But in considering it I saw that the idea had all the qualities of a human invention. And I have found no compelling evidence to suggest that it is anything other than the product of the human mind.

And from that response I need to find an answer to the question I am dying to have an answer to. Please appreciate if you can answer me as clear as possible.

What is a compelling evidence that would be sufficient for that matter?

 

[columbus]

At least the though that something mysterious behind all this ?

What is mysterious is that so many people can't see why they accept only one of the many fictional accounts describing an OMNIMAX god like Allah. If everyone realized that the prophets all have one thing in common, a human source, there wouldn't be any Abrahamic religion.

Tom

 

[Sabour]

My parents never pushed any religion on me, so my upbringing was pretty secular. I always wanted to believe in god, but the older I grew the more I discovered that most of the dogmas I had been told about religion were just that. Being a pessimistic young lad, I just started assuming there was no god once things started to become demystified...and I felt pretty justified in that since in my own personal experience I had never really encountered "god" in any way, shape or form.

Well I see. But what if the set of beliefs were wrong. I mean if what is being taught is wrong, it doesn't mean that God doesn't exist.

Eventually I became religious in my early twenties, giving the whole "faith" thing a try. At first it was wonderful because I actually felt and believed I had made a connection with "god," but that euphoric phase started to wane once I saw how my so called faith was being rewarded/panning out. People kept telling me, "Just keep believing, your time is coming. Don't let all the negative things in your life take hold of you, you're going to win, god is going to come through for you," etc, etc ad nauseam.This was a continuous roller coaster of going back and forth, between faith and losing faith, etc. I would constantly go between identifying as a theist and an agnostic/atheist, though the older I got and the more bad things that happened these waves would be a lot more extended and drawn out.

Well Okay can I conclude that you believe that if God existed, your life would have been better?

Finally, the final nail in the coffin (no pun intended) was my mother passing. I'm not going to go into details about my life over the past decade and I don't want any type of pity-party over it, but it has been nothing short of hell. I could no longer in good conscience intellectually or emotionally defend or argue in favor of a supreme being that cares for his people. And this is not just based off of my own personal experience, it is based on the world and the universe we live in...it is cold, callous and the very definition of unmerciful and uncaring. Take you pick of all the awfulness that goes on daily all around the world and go from there.

Well I see that my question was answer I guess ?

There was always the mantra of "imagine what the world would be like if god took his hand off of it," from my theist friends and family members...I have imagined what a world without god looks like, and it looks very close to this one.

What if what you are looking to comes in the afterlife. I mean like heaven.

Why would you reject that this world is a test for us?

 

[Sabour]

One answer, perhaps it would be interesting if you would share your story with us.

Gladly

Was there ever a time in your life when you didn't believe in "God"?

Well actually the furthest point I got to was what If there God didn't exist. Because I always try to take a look from outside the box once in a while. I started reflecting on everything I observe. As I said, the existence of universe requires intelligence.

What we call science is studying how actually God runs things. I don't believe that by chance things would occur in a precise manner.

If ten rocks were thrown randomly ten times in a row and someone came to study the position of these rocks, he would be absolutely clueless. But if someone came to arrange the rocks according to a certain pattern, than the one studying the positions is more likely to understand what is going on.

Also, everything has a start. Did they start their self? I answered that with a no. Because nothing can start itself when it doesn't exist.

Their must be a Creator who is self sufficient and depends on no one. That would be God.


If not does that mean you have the same belief you had from childhood?

Yes.

That doesn't mean I am not a thinker. Because a no change in one's nature doesn't mean he didn't think properly. It means he had his reasons not to think otherwise.

Islam answers all the questions I need an answer to. It isn't about just faith, it is about faith and reasoning.

If ever Islam was proven wrong to me, ( which I doubt would happen) I will still be a believer of God. This hasn't to do with me being a muslim only. It is about where my thinking lead me

 

[columbus]

Lucky for him he will go to heaven.

Now if God didn't care in the first place, why food on earth exists?

Why would "him" go to heaven?

Why doesn't God feed the poor and weak? Of at least take them to heaven or something?


Food is for the strong and ruthless. Muslims who don't support the right government generally die in the street. Because Allah doesn't care. Take a close look at the Islamic world. It's easy to see for those with eyes.

To.

 

[Sabour]

Well, people claim that personal experiences amount to evidence, but it is my submission that if you take a wider view, there are people being persuaded about the truth of a number of contradictory belief systems in the same manner. Muslims, Jews, Christians, Hindus and more are all persuaded of some form of supernatural narrative because of the same emotional/'spiritual' types of experiences. Either they are all correct, or such experiences are not a reliable indicator of truth. I opt for the latter option.

just a minute, how would all be correct if there are major difference between them?

For instance, Christianity says believe Jesus peace be upon him as your savior and you go to heaven. Islam says it is about belief and righteous deeds.

Christianity says trinity and "begotten son", Islam says God is One.

In addition, if someone is forcing another about a concept, it doesn't mean it is wrong.

I think you misunderstood what I mean by compelling, which is persuasive. There are many things that are interesting to think about, but I am not persuaded to believe them because of a lack of compelling evidence. It would be interesting if ghosts existed, but I have yet to come across any evidence that persuades/compels me to believe, for instance.

Still I didn't an answer.

Sorry but let me put it this way, What evidence are you waiting to see that God exists?

So, on the last point Mormons are often warned against reading objective accounts of church history, or any material critical of the church as it might dissuade them from the faith. Being a curious fellow, I entered into online discussions about that kind of thing. I had intended to retain my faith, and persuade others that they were mistaken. However, over time the apologetic narratives became too much of a stretch, and I concluded that on a sort of "balance of probabilities" it seemed more likely that the Mormon church is false than it is true. The sheer number of criticisms one could level against the authenticity of the Mormon church is somewhat overwhelming. Over time, that balance increasingly fell towards the conclusion that the Mormon church isn't true to the degree that I am virtually certain of it now.

So I guess it is the classical "you have to believe" answer Christians give.
In addition to "don't let a little knowledge wreck you faith".

 

[ImmortalFlame]

just a minute, how would all be correct if there are major difference between them?

For instance, Christianity says believe Jesus peace be upon him as your savior and you go to heaven. Islam says it is about belief and righteous deeds.

Christianity says trinity and "begotten son", Islam says God is One.

In addition, if someone is forcing another about a concept, it doesn't mean it is wrong.

That's exactly their point. These people base their beliefs on personal experience, and yet they cannot possibly all be accurate, so the only reasonable conclusion to draw is that personal experience is not a good means to measure objective truth, otherwise personal experience couldn't produce all of these contradicting results.

 

[Sabour]

Why would "him" go to heaven?

Because he didn't reach the age when he is accountable for his actions.

Why doesn't God feed the poor and weak? Of at least take them to heaven or something?

That would be a complex answer.

In brief, this life is a test for us. The harder the test is, the more a person is rewarded. This is how just Allah is. We are accountable for ALL our actions in this world. This including being patient and accepting all that comes from Allah.

This is not the only reason, another reason is that everything is related by cause and effect. It is true that Allah can do what ever He wishes. But does he do it?


Call me crazy, but sometimes I look forward to facing problems for I know that my patience for this problem would be awarded in the hereafter.

Us being on earth is about gong through a test. Hopefully I would go to heaven. I know that every little action no matter how small it was is being taken into account.

 

[fantome profane]

And from that response I need to find an answer to the question I am dying to have an answer to. Please appreciate if you can answer me as clear as possible.

What is a compelling evidence that would be sufficient for that matter?

I have tried to answer this question before, and it is difficult. But I will give it my best shot. But before I even do that I want to say that this is not a case of an atheist demanding unreasonable evidence. I am not demanding that theists or anyone prove anything to me. Nor am I demanding that "God" prove his (or her or it's ) existence to me.

If "God" were to show up, not just in one manifestation and disappear again, but show up and stick around. And if this "God" actually did something to make it worthy of the title "God". Like feed the hungry, protect the innocent, actually help mankind. And stick around and keep doing this, opening and not in some secret or covert way. Then I would be forced to admit that "God" exists.

Please don't bother giving me the standard apologetics as to why "God" does not do this.

 

[Sabour]

That's exactly their point. These people base their beliefs on personal experience, and yet they cannot possibly all be accurate, so the only reasonable conclusion to draw is that personal experience is not a good means to measure objective truth, otherwise personal experience couldn't produce all of these contradicting results.

What do you mean by personal experience? Do you mean each person's experience with a certain religion?

Okay so based on the assumption you have put, all people are wrong.

God exists and doesn't exist in the same time.

Some people believe God exists from their personal experience and some believe God doesn't exist from their personal experience.

Applying your approach this means that both are wrong. God exists and doesn't exist at the same time.

 

[Sabour]

I have tried to answer this question before, and it is difficult. But I will give it my best shot. But before I even do that I want to say that this is not a case of an atheist demanding unreasonable evidence. I am not demanding that theists or anyone prove anything to me. Nor am I demanding that "God" prove his (or her or it's ) existence to me.

If "God" were to show up, not just in one manifestation and disappear again, but show up and stick around. And if this "God" actually did something to make it worthy of the title "God". Like feed the hungry, protect the innocent, actually help mankind. And stick around and keep doing this, opening and not in some secret or covert way. Then I would be forced to admit that "God" exists.

Please don't bother giving me the standard apologetics as to why "God" does not do this.

Well okay I can't help and match that you are not demanding unreasonable proof and than giving the proof you wanted.

It is true that God can do everything, but he doesn't do any thing.

Would your proof be part of the plan God has for us?

If your proof was to happen, all people would come believers. Therefore this is no purpose on this life.

 

[Mister_T]

Well I see. But what if the set of beliefs were wrong. I mean if what is being taught is wrong, it doesn't mean that God doesn't exist.

Not sure if you understand the concept of "secular." My parents had their own personal beliefs, they just never belonged to any specific organization and they never pushed any beliefs on me, thus nothing was being taught.

Well Okay can I conclude that you believe that if God existed, your life would have been better?

More along the lines of if a personal god existed, there wouldn't be all the suffering and injustice happening to good people and people that have faith in him.

Well I see that my question was answer I guess ?

No. That is only one piece of the puzzle that just happens to personally resonate in me as of late.

What if what you are looking to comes in the afterlife. I mean like heaven.

Why would you reject that this world is a test for us?

I suddenly feel that this is now becoming proselytizing....

If god can't deliver on the small things here on earth, in this life that I know is reality, then I have 0-reason believe in something as big as an afterlife (which as of right now, is not proven) when I am dead. Simple as that. There is no need to "test" someone if they already believe, which I one point I did.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

What do you mean by personal experience? Do you mean each person's experience with a certain religion?

From what I understand, "personal experience" in this context boils down to "something an individual experiences on a deep, personal level that cannot be shared, demonstrated or directly or indirectly objectively verified or experienced by anyone other than the individual who had the initial experience".

People who say that they hear God's voice, for example, cannot then "share" what experience with others - whether their experience is actually true or not. It is a personal experience. Of course, one could always argue that every experience is a personal one, but such arguments tend to fall headlong into the world of solipsism and trying to get out of that philosophical mire is usually fruitless and always pointless.

Okay so based on the assumption you have put, all people are wrong.

No. One or more of them could be correct. We'd just have no way of knowing, and therefore rationally concluding, that they are.

God exists and doesn't exist in the same time.

Er, no. God could go one way or the other. Possibly both, for all I know. He could exist in a superstate.

Some people believe God exists from their personal experience and some believe God doesn't exist from their personal experience.

Applying your approach this means that both are wrong. God exists and doesn't exist at the same time.

Again, no. I never said that personal experience is always wrong, just that there is no good reason to believe that it is accurate.

 

[fantome profane]

Would your proof be part of the plan God has for us?

If your proof was to happen, all people would come believers. Therefore this is no purpose on this life.

That is exactly the kind of appologetics I am not interested in. And again I want you to understand I am not demanding or expecting "God" to do anything. You asked me what would convince me, and this would convince me.

 

[outhouse]

It is said that if a child left to grow alone with his set of beliefs, he would grow up to believe in the existence of God.


.

Sources please. I dont buy it.


People generally beleive what they do to geographic location alone, more then anything else.


A child left on a island to survive, would not know the abrahamic god in any sense as written.

And if it was an isolated island, he would be like primitive men, and possibly have smoke spirits, valcanos and thunder and lightning deities.

But not the god as you think you know it.

 

[Alceste]

Hello Guys.

I had a question in mind for atheists and agnostics.

It is said that if a child left to grow alone with his set of beliefs, he would grow up to believe in the existence of God.

In addition, most of your parents weren't atheists nor agnostics.

So my question is, what are the things that made you become atheist/agnostic.

The very first moment that you have decided on this subject, what was before that?

Appreciate your responses.

I was never really a believer, but I was raised going to Christian church, like nearly everybody else I knew. I just wasn't convinced, since the stories are not all that believable, really.

When I was 18 I traveled a lot and ended up in a more pluralistic city, where people had a much wider variety of spiritual beliefs than the city where I grew up. For a rational kid like myself, that presented an intriguing puzzle, since all of them seemed equally convinced their beliefs were true, but many of them were contradictory. Yet all claimed to have had direct personal experiences that affirmed their beliefs, some of which I witnessed in person.

Fast forward a few months later, after several sessions of sitting on a nice little private patch of beach I'd found, watching the tide going in and out and thinking of nothing, I had an epiphany. Like a little explosion in my head, where a bunch of preconditioned ideas from my childhood that I'd never really thought about were obliterated and for one incredible moment I saw the world around me with no preconceptions about it at all.

Then as the pieces fell back together, it was crystal clear to me how the whole belief -> evidence -> belief circle spins, and what it spins upon, which is intention. When it comes to spirituality, we see and experience more or less what we intend (or expect) to see and experience, and those intentions can either be established by unexamined conditioning or fully engaged, purposeful cultivation.

I then spent several years mucking about with the purposeful cultivation of intention for my personal exploration, had some extremely bizarre experiences, became satisfied with my conclusions and moved on.

 

[fantome profane]

A child left on a island to survive, would not know the abrahamic god in any sense as written.

If an infant was left alone on an island it would not survive. If the child was old enough to have even a chance of survival left alone on an island it would also be old enough to have absorbed some of its parents beliefs.

The whole question of the natural state of a child just doesn't work. I remember reading about experiments from the 18th century where they actually tried to raise children in isolation, without talking to them or interacting with them in any significant way. The would give the child food and water and make some arrangements for basic hygiene etc, but no communication. As strange as it may seem the point was to see what language the child naturally developed. As you might imagine the child did not naturally develop language. These children were severely mentally retarded, incapable of speech. And they certainly didn't develop any religion or culture. These things have to come from other people, they would not develop in isolation.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Hello Guys.

I had a question in mind for atheists and agnostics.

It is said that if a child left to grow alone with his set of beliefs, he would grow up to believe in the existence of God.

In addition, most of your parents weren't atheists nor agnostics.

So my question is, what are the things that made you become atheist/agnostic.

The very first moment that you have decided on this subject, what was before that?

Appreciate your responses.

Were all born that way.

 

[Gordian Knot]

I see atheists everywhere!!!!!

 

[LuisDantas]

Is it that difficult for some people to accept atheism as the very natural occurrence that it is?