Athiests and Agnostics, your decisive moment

[Sabour]

Yeah, people have a tendency to say all sorts of crazy things.



I never became a theist, but I'd say I officially identified as an atheist some time in my early 20's after putting the pieces together through years of studying and analyzing psychology, history, sociology, and other sciences.

Yeah but what actually makes the idea of believing in God unique is that it is shared by all the children.

For example, I know a child who thought that every one would see the word with the color of his eyes. Did I believe in that? NO. Did anyone else shared this view? maybe little.

I used to think that when I turn off the lights, objects will start moving. Does anyone believe in that? perhaps few.

Do all children believe that there is someone who created the universe and is in control? I think yes.


So you studied psychology, history, sociology, and other sciences. What about religion?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Yeah but what actually makes the idea of believing in God unique is that it is shared by all the children.

But it isn't. I never believed in any god. And many other people I've known never beleived in any god as children either. You seem to be stuck on this idea that children necessarily believe in god, but it is proven incorrect by the number of children who don't or didn't.

For example, I know a child who thought that every one would see the word with the color of his eyes. Did I believe in that? NO. Did anyone else shared this view? maybe little.

I used to think that when I turn off the lights, objects will start moving. Does anyone believe in that? perhaps few.

Do all children believe that there is someone who created the universe and is in control? I think yes.

Then you think wrong.

So you studied psychology, history, sociology, and other sciences. What about religion?

When you study these other things, you understand people. When you understand people, you understand why they invented god and religion.

 

[Revoltingest]

Yeah but what actually makes the idea of believing in God unique is that it is shared by all the children.

Ahem....example to the contrary here.

 

[columbus]

It is said that if a child left to grow alone with his set of beliefs, he would grow up to believe in the existence of God.

This is clearly not true. If a child is left alone s/he will die an ugly death of dehydration within a few hours. There is clearly no God who cares about innocent children. It is only humans who care about humanity.

God, if such exists, can be demonstrated to not care about the most innocent.

Tom

 

[Sabour]

Discussing religion with other kids in the neighborhood some half
a century ago, I discovered my experience wasn't common.

Whaddaya expect with a moniker like mine?
Please don't take offense though.
My perspective isn't the truth or anything.
But you asked, & I answered.


I don't see that....only that the universe exists, &
that stuff happens in it with some predictability.

Okay am not used to someone saying that perhaps his perspective is not the truth.

I know many would think about the possibility they are wrong but no one says it explicitly.

Anyways what was the experience referred to?

 

[fantome profane]

What is the main reason behind that? Did you "consider" that God would exist at any moment? And if nowhat ruled out that possibility ?

Of course I have considered the possibility. But in considering it I saw that the idea had all the qualities of a human invention. And I have found no compelling evidence to suggest that it is anything other than the product of the human mind.

 

[Mister_T]

Hello Guys.

I had a question in mind for atheists and agnostics.

It is said that if a child left to grow alone with his set of beliefs, he would grow up to believe in the existence of God.

In addition, most of your parents weren't atheists nor agnostics.

So my question is, what are the things that made you become atheist/agnostic.

The very first moment that you have decided on this subject, what was before that?

Appreciate your responses.

My parents never pushed any religion on me, so my upbringing was pretty secular. I always wanted to believe in god, but the older I grew the more I discovered that most of the dogmas I had been told about religion were just that. Being a pessimistic young lad, I just started assuming there was no god once things started to become demystified...and I felt pretty justified in that since in my own personal experience I had never really encountered "god" in any way, shape or form.

Eventually I became religious in my early twenties, giving the whole "faith" thing a try. At first it was wonderful because I actually felt and believed I had made a connection with "god," but that euphoric phase started to wane once I saw how my so called faith was being rewarded/panning out. People kept telling me, "Just keep believing, your time is coming. Don't let all the negative things in your life take hold of you, you're going to win, god is going to come through for you," etc, etc ad nauseam.This was a continuous roller coaster of going back and forth, between faith and losing faith, etc. I would constantly go between identifying as a theist and an agnostic/atheist, though the older I got and the more bad things that happened these waves would be a lot more extended and drawn out.

Finally, the final nail in the coffin (no pun intended) was my mother passing. I'm not going to go into details about my life over the past decade and I don't want any type of pity-party over it, but it has been nothing short of hell. I could no longer in good conscience intellectually or emotionally defend or argue in favor of a supreme being that cares for his people. And this is not just based off of my own personal experience, it is based on the world and the universe we live in...it is cold, callous and the very definition of unmerciful and uncaring. Take you pick of all the awfulness that goes on daily all around the world and go from there.

There was always the mantra of "imagine what the world would be like if god took his hand off of it," from my theist friends and family members...I have imagined what a world without god looks like, and it looks very close to this one.

 

[fantome profane]

Hello Guys.

I had a question in mind for atheists and agnostics.

It is said that if a child left to grow alone with his set of beliefs, he would grow up to believe in the existence of God.

In addition, most of your parents weren't atheists nor agnostics.

So my question is, what are the things that made you become atheist/agnostic.

The very first moment that you have decided on this subject, what was before that?

Appreciate your responses.

One answer, perhaps it would be interesting if you would share your story with us. Was there ever a time in your life when you didn't believe in "God"? If so what brought you to that point?

If not does that mean you have the same belief you had from childhood?

 

[misanthropic_clown]

So it is because of your religion being solely dependent on faith without a strong evidence right ?

Isn't the idea of what happens after we die compelling or something to think about ?

Can you emphasize how you read your way out?

Well, people claim that personal experiences amount to evidence, but it is my submission that if you take a wider view, there are people being persuaded about the truth of a number of contradictory belief systems in the same manner. Muslims, Jews, Christians, Hindus and more are all persuaded of some form of supernatural narrative because of the same emotional/'spiritual' types of experiences. Either they are all correct, or such experiences are not a reliable indicator of truth. I opt for the latter option.

I think you misunderstood what I mean by compelling, which is persuasive. There are many things that are interesting to think about, but I am not persuaded to believe them because of a lack of compelling evidence. It would be interesting if ghosts existed, but I have yet to come across any evidence that persuades/compels me to believe, for instance.

So, on the last point Mormons are often warned against reading objective accounts of church history, or any material critical of the church as it might dissuade them from the faith. Being a curious fellow, I entered into online discussions about that kind of thing. I had intended to retain my faith, and persuade others that they were mistaken. However, over time the apologetic narratives became too much of a stretch, and I concluded that on a sort of "balance of probabilities" it seemed more likely that the Mormon church is false than it is true. The sheer number of criticisms one could level against the authenticity of the Mormon church is somewhat overwhelming. Over time, that balance increasingly fell towards the conclusion that the Mormon church isn't true to the degree that I am virtually certain of it now.

 

[Sabour]

Firstly, I think the quotation you use simply isn't true. While human history indicates that people have a tendency to believe in God, and studies have suggested that our brains kind of lean upon the notion of God as an explanatory framework in lieu of better explanation, I don't think it is true to say that a person, left to their own devices, will always grow up to believe in a God. It's certainly not true these days.

I am not saying that they will remain believers. I am saying it the human nature. This will begin changing when he begins asking questions,analyzing and observing.

The stand he would take will be influenced by the actions and answers he takes.

That was my point. I think we agree on that no?

For me personally, I was raised by a father from a Catholic family and a mother from a Protestant family, but both of my parents grew up to reject both systems of belief and came to be atheists. However, they did not "raise" me as an atheist. In fact, they sent me to a series of Christian nurseries and schools (mostly Catholic), and never really talked to me about what I should or shouldn't believe with regards to the spiritual world. As such, I'm not sure that there is a particular moment where I suddenly decided upon being an atheist rather than something else. I never really felt like I held an opposing view; I was just always an atheist, and eventually grew into referring to myself that way.

Well I think you were influenced by the fact that both of your parents believed in neither systems.

I do remember perhaps one of my earliest encounters with religious belief, however. I was attending a Christian nursery, so I must have been very, very young at the time, and I remember vaguely one of the teachers talking to us about various Christian beliefs - in particular about the afterlife and miracles. I don't remember my immediate reaction, but I remember going to my mum after nursery that day with a head full of all these amazing and bizarre teachings and asking her: "Mum, are we Christians?" She simply answered, "No."

Then I walked away, with a distinct feeling of relief.

So basically I think you followed your parents' beliefs.

True?

Had the answer been yes, many things would have changed, I guess

 

[Ouroboros]

In addition, most of your parents weren't atheists nor agnostics.

Correct. My family was (is) quite religious.

So my question is, what are the things that made you become atheist/agnostic.

Struggles and unfairness in life. I realized my image of God was wrong.

The very first moment that you have decided on this subject, what was before that?

I didn't decide. I just realized over time that my view of God had to change, and while doing so I couldn't find a God-image that fit my experiences, so the doubt built until one day I look in the mirror and it dawned on me that I didn't believe in God at all. It was essentially a progress of many years of struggle to keep faith in a God, but failed. I even prayed to God to show himself or prove himself to me. Now I know that God isn't a person, but God is Everything. The whole. The All. God doesn't dictated out lives or tell us how to live. It is up to us, humanity, to find what is good and honorable.

 

[averageJOE]

Hello Guys.

It is said that if a child left to grow alone with his set of beliefs, he would grow up to believe in the existence of God.

I remember when I was a kid I believed vampires were real.

 

[LuisDantas]

Hello Guys.

I had a question in mind for atheists and agnostics.

It is said that if a child left to grow alone with his set of beliefs, he would grow up to believe in the existence of God.

In addition, most of your parents weren't atheists nor agnostics.

So my question is, what are the things that made you become atheist/agnostic.

The very first moment that you have decided on this subject, what was before that?

Appreciate your responses.

When I learned of the concept of God and found it weird, I guess.

I don't think I have ever been a theist, although I may have half-heartedly attempted to at some point. My childhood was replete with attempts at attaining acceptance by unhealthy means.

 

[Sabour]

But it isn't. I never believed in any god. And many other people I've known never beleived in any god as children either. You seem to be stuck on this idea that children necessarily believe in god, but it is proven incorrect by the number of children who don't or didn't.

I think the problem is with the labeling.

The idea is that they believed that the world is created by someone you can't see.

I think the argument you are putting is not labeling it.

Then you think wrong.

Well let's drop that. It will lead us nowhere.

When you study these other things, you understand people. When you understand people, you understand why they invented god and religion.

That doesn't make sense.

If I know you are a killer and see someone killed, it doesn't automatically mean that you are the killer of that person.

If we know that someone imagines somethings that don't happen and told us that there was a car accident, this doesn't automatically mean that if he said it, than it is false

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I am not saying that they will remain believers. I am saying it the human nature. This will begin changing when he begins asking questions,analyzing and observing.

The stand he would take will be influenced by the actions and answers he takes.

That was my point. I think we agree on that no?

I'm really not sure that anything you've just said is anything even remotely related to what I was responding to earlier. I don't think it is "human nature" to believe in God - I think it can be a bias of our minds to reach for theistic conclusions when there is a lack of anything more credible to hold on to. It's a tendency, but not something that is universal, nor the default position.

Well I think you were influenced by the fact that both of your parents believed in neither systems.

I'd be surprised if I wasn't, but I cannot recall them ever really telling me what to believe or what I should think about the concept of God. It was less like being raised by two atheists and far more, from my memory, like being raised in a place where religion was simply never mentioned - except in school. If they influenced me to be anything, it was to be skeptical.

So basically I think you followed your parents' beliefs.

True?

I'm not sure. The fact that they and I are atheists has little to do with me following their beliefs since, as I said, we never really discussed their beliefs. It was a case of receiving information, processing it, and when bringing it to my parents being met with nothing but silence and neutrality on the issue, so I kind of had to fend for myself in that regard.

Had the answer been yes, many things would have changed, I guess

Again, the point of the story was the sense of relief I remember feeling. If my parents had told me that we were, in fact, a Christian family, I probably would have not gone along with it. But, that's a different me, so who's to say?

 

[Sabour]

Ahem....example to the contrary here.

At least the though that something mysterious behind all this ?

 

[Revoltingest]

At least the though that something mysterious behind all this ?

The more I learn, the more mysterious it all gets.

Hey, I suspected, & verified that you haven't started an introductory thread.
Well.....get crack'n!

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Well let's drop that. It will lead us nowhere.

It could lead us to you admitting that not all children believe in a divine creator, if you're willing to listen to people who state that they never held such a belief.

That doesn't make sense.

It makes sense when you're trying to determine whether it's more likely that people created gods as a result of the vagaries of their psychology and sociology, or that such a being actually exists.

I certainly do not know, nor claim to know, whether such a being exists. All I can say is that all human-created concepts of such entities are clearly a result of human needs and the human imagination, and that no empirical evidence exists which allows one to reliably conclude that such a being exists. So, unless the situation changes, my position will remain that I do not hold the belief that such a being exists.

 

[Sabour]

This is clearly not true. If a child is left alone s/he will die an ugly death of dehydration within a few hours. There is clearly no God who cares about innocent children. It is only humans who care about humanity.

Lucky for him he will go to heaven.

Now if God didn't care in the first place, why food on earth exists?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Lucky for him he will go to heaven.

Now if God didn't care in the first place, why food on earth exists?

You might want to go back as start with studying some basic biology.