Athiests and Agnostics, your decisive moment

[LuisDantas]

Well about the muslim part it is complicated LoL. I would say that most of muslims will have their eyes wide open when they hear that someone is an atheist. It is like why do you believe that :areyoucra.

That shows a challenge of mutual understanding. Atheism is just so natural and really not worth worrying about.

Well let me speak about my society. I see a lot of people expressing their thoughts and disagreeing with Islam. Reactions differ. But majority see that normal... I don't know if I am making the idea clear

I have on occasion seem people insist to me that Islam is beyond criticism, almost as if by definition, or perhaps literally by definition.

It is difficult to tell, because Islam seems to mean both a perfect ideal and (in most casual speech) simply "Muslim society".

I don't think we Atheists have much of a problem with high ideals, although it will always be a head-scratcher to notice that insistence in rejecting atheism and speaking of belief in God as if it were for certain conductive to moral virtue.

But if what you mean is that Muslims, just like most anyone else, realize that their societies have problems and shortcomings and criticize that, I have no problem whatsoever believing in that. I do however wonder how effective criticism can be in a Muslim society.

And let me ask you, did we have a discussion where I mentioned Gary Miller for you and provided you with a link about his thoughts about Islam or am I mistaken ?

It was him who said that he was converted from Christianity to Islam due to what he found in the Quran, wasn't it? He claims to be impressed by how accurate the predictions of the Quran are.

I don't really know what to say about that. I'm not predisposed to see scriptures as really important, and I am not impressed by Gary Miller's statements.

As for the Quran itself, its language seems to me to be fairly cryptical in most stances, and not particularly informative most of the time. I fear those who expect me to be impressed by it will be forever disappointed.

 

[Sabour]

studying science, history, and religion lead to my atheism.

Well these are broad reasons. Nothing In particular I cant start with Lol

 

[Sabour]

That shows a challenge of mutual understanding. Atheism is just so natural and really not worth worrying about.

Well that stand depends on the society one lives in. It is not an Islamic thing, it is a believer thing. Like any place when there are believers of a certain religion, you won't feel that you have to tell them that you are an atheist. Believe me it is not just about Islam

I have on occasion seem people insist to me that Islam is beyond criticism, almost as if by definition, or perhaps literally by definition.

Well I do believe that Islam is perfect.

It is difficult to tell, because Islam seems to mean both a perfect ideal and (in most casual speech) simply "Muslim society".

To evaluate Islam using a muslim society you have to make sure that the called muslim society does really follow Islam.

Honestly, I think none does. People who live Islam are rare to find. However, I would say if you want to see someone who is really living Islam, take look at people who come from another religion to Islam. These are the people who do know the true value of Islam. As for the "born" muslims, it will be difficult to tell who is really a follower and who is not.

I don't think we Atheists have much of a problem with high ideals, although it will always be a head-scratcher to notice that insistence in rejecting atheism and speaking of belief in God as if it were for certain conductive to moral virtue.

I consider many atheists to have more moral standards than most called "muslims"

But if what you mean is that Muslims, just like most anyone else, realize that their societies have problems and shortcomings and criticize that, I have no problem whatsoever believing in that. I do however wonder how effective criticism can be in a Muslim society.

We do have LOTS of problems. But what did you mean by problems ?

It was him who said that he was converted from Christianity to Islam due to what he found in the Quran, wasn't it? He claims to be impressed by how accurate the predictions of the Quran are.

I don't really know what to say about that. I'm not predisposed to see scriptures as really important, and I am not impressed by Gary Miller's statements.

As for the Quran itself, its language seems to me to be fairly cryptical in most stances, and not particularly informative most of the time. I fear those who expect me to be impressed by it will be forever disappointed.

Yeah on that, did you tell me that you would be more impressed if the writing I provided covered more aspects? Or still I am being mistaken with someone else?

 

[LuisDantas]

That shows a challenge of mutual understanding. Atheism is just so natural and really not worth worrying about.

Well that stand depends on the society one lives in. It is not an Islamic thing, it is a believer thing. Like any place when there are believers of a certain religion, you won't feel that you have to tell them that you are an atheist. Believe me it is not just about Islam

It happens with Christians too, and perhaps to some degree with Hindus, Buddhists and the like, I suppose.

It is still too grave a mistake. We should not just accept that. Atheism must be respected for the natural and harmless happening that it has always been and will always be.

As long as any theist fails to do that, he will be misguided and just plain wrong.

I have on occasion seem people insist to me that Islam is beyond criticism, almost as if by definition, or perhaps literally by definition.

Well I do believe that Islam is perfect.

Islam the concept certainly is.

Not necessarily realistic or even respectful of people as they can truly be, but perfect on its own terms for sure.

It is difficult to tell, because Islam seems to mean both a perfect ideal and (in most casual speech) simply "Muslim society".

To evaluate Islam using a muslim society you have to make sure that the called muslim society does really follow Islam.

Honestly, I think none does. People who live Islam are rare to find. However, I would say if you want to see someone who is really living Islam, take look at people who come from another religion to Islam. These are the people who do know the true value of Islam. As for the "born" muslims, it will be difficult to tell who is really a follower and who is not.

Religiously wise people are by definition quite remarkable, of course.

But I think you are missing the point here. I am bringing to question whether expecting people to believe in the Quran or in God (as opposed to simply accepting that many people will and be better off for that, while others will not) is a good idea, or even respectful.

I don't think we Atheists have much of a problem with high ideals, although it will always be a head-scratcher to notice that insistence in rejecting atheism and speaking of belief in God as if it were for certain conductive to moral virtue.

I consider many atheists to have more moral standards than most called "muslims"

And do you still think they would be better off accepting the Quran? It is hard to tell. Sometimes Muslims seem to sincerely believe that Atheism can only be a defect to be pitied.

But if what you mean is that Muslims, just like most anyone else, realize that their societies have problems and shortcomings and criticize that, I have no problem whatsoever believing in that. I do however wonder how effective criticism can be in a Muslim society.

We do have LOTS of problems. But what did you mean by problems ?

I guess I just don't understood what you meant.

It was him who said that he was converted from Christianity to Islam due to what he found in the Quran, wasn't it? He claims to be impressed by how accurate the predictions of the Quran are.

I don't really know what to say about that. I'm not predisposed to see scriptures as really important, and I am not impressed by Gary Miller's statements.

As for the Quran itself, its language seems to me to be fairly cryptical in most stances, and not particularly informative most of the time. I fear those who expect me to be impressed by it will be forever disappointed.

Yeah on that, did you tell me that you would be more impressed if the writing I provided covered more aspects? Or still I am being mistaken with someone else?

It could well have been. But I am not one to be impressed by scriptures in the best of times. The ones that most impress me (the Bhagavad Gita, the Tao Te Ching) are not even of my own religion. I usually search for religious wisdom outside scripture.

 

[Desert Snake]

I find that strange

Well, I don't think it's strange...anyways, I'm outta this thread, because I'm not an atheist...

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I became Agnostic after I better realized and understood my own senses can deceive me, I actually know very little about anything, and how can I ever hope to even have a clue as to what, if anything, lies beyond the universe when I have such limited senses and we have not even yet seen all of our own universe.

 

[Sabour]

It happens with Christians too, and perhaps to some degree with Hindus, Buddhists and the like, I suppose.

It is still too grave a mistake. We should not just accept that. Atheism must be respected for the natural and harmless happening that it has always been and will always be.

As long as any theist fails to do that, he will be misguided and just plain wrong.

Well I would say the act you are referring too is there. Almost all believer try to talk atheist about the subject. Some do it because they feel it is their responsibility towards you, some do it for personal satisfaction, and other do it just to attack you.

My stand is that having a discussion is always a healthy thing to do for both sides. But no body should cross the line.

Islam the concept certainly is.

Not necessarily realistic or even respectful of people as they can truly be, but perfect on its own terms for sure.

You mean as a theology? But you think that muslims are messing things up ?

Religiously wise people are by definition quite remarkable, of course.

But I think you are missing the point here. I am bringing to question whether expecting people to believe in the Quran or in God (as opposed to simply accepting that many people will and be better off for that, while others will not) is a good idea, or even respectful.

Well my stand on this is that no one should hold any expectations of what others would believe because there will be a trillion variables taking place. Did I answer your question? If not please put it for me in another way. I don't seem very clever today :cover::cover:

And do you still think they would be better off accepting the Quran? It is hard to tell. Sometimes Muslims seem to sincerely believe that Atheism can only be a defect to be pitied.

Well frankly I do believe that coming to the true side of Islam will make people's life better for our belief is that Allah is perfect. Quraan is the Word of God and Islam is from God. So Quraan and Islam are perfect and suitable for everyone.

I guess I just don't understood what you meant.

But if what you mean is that Muslims, just like most anyone else, realize that their societies have problems and shortcomings and criticize that, I have no problem whatsoever believing in that

What did you mean by problems? What kind of problems? Do you mean in the Islam itself?

It could well have been. But I am not one to be impressed by scriptures in the best of times. The ones that most impress me (the Bhagavad Gita, the Tao Te Ching) are not even of my own religion. I usually search for religious wisdom outside scripture.

Well okay I thought you asked me for something beyond what I provided.

 

[Sabour]

Well, I don't think it's strange...anyways, I'm outta this thread, because I'm not an atheist...

You are very committed.

In that case see you around

 

[Sabour]

I became Agnostic after I better realized and understood my own senses can deceive me, I actually know very little about anything, and how can I ever hope to even have a clue as to what, if anything, lies beyond the universe when I have such limited senses and we have not even yet seen all of our own universe.

You don't have to know everything, you just have to evaluate things.

Don't underestimate the power of mind and logical thinking

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You don't have to know everything, you just have to evaluate things.

Don't underestimate the power of mind and logical thinking

I don't. I also realize that logical thinking is not objective, but very subjective and is something that changes quite often.
And how can you really properly evaluate things (especially when we are talking about as something as large as the universe) with just a very small glimpse of it? We can usually figure things out this way, but many times we are very wrong.

 

[Sabour]

I don't. I also realize that logical thinking is not objective, but very subjective and is something that changes quite often.
And how can you really properly evaluate things (especially when we are talking about as something as large as the universe) with just a very small glimpse of it? We can usually figure things out this way, but many times we are very wrong.

Well there is always something to start with in such journey. However, each person is a unique case.

Am not saying much am I ?

 

[LuisDantas]

Coming from another thread:

Most of us know far more of the subject than we need.

This means that people who think that must not be approached by the subject and believers should respect their opinion and not discuss that matter.

Not really. Generally speaking, I don't think avoidance is a very respectful stance.

Avoiding the subject of belief in God when talking to atheists is proper in some situations, of course.

But actual acknowledgement of disbelief is necessary for true respect to exist.

Better yet is to attempt to understand how an atheist's head works, and what he bases his ethics on.

You seem to believe that it is for everyone's benefit to have belief in God, even if for whatever reason some people do not want it and even claim to be incompatible with it.

What do you mean by, "for everyone's benefit"? If you mean it is better for the society if all were believers than I would say no for many reasons.

That sure surprises me, particularly coming from a Muslim and from you specifically.

I thought, from previous posts, that you sincerely believed that each and every person would be better off if they found it on them to believe in God.

It is not a matter of presenting the matter in a skilled enough way, pal. Or of overcoming obstacles. Theism itself is the obstacle. It is just not for everyone.

How about we carry this discussion to my thread "agnositcs and atheists, your decisive moment" because I think we are going away from what this thread is addressing?

As you wish.

 

[Sabour]

Not really. Generally speaking, I don't think avoidance is a very respectful stance.

It is not avoidance. It is respecting the will of the atheist who doesn't want to be approached by this subject. I don't get it, do you mean that the believer should still address the matter whether you want to or not?

But actual acknowledgement of disbelief is necessary for true respect to exist.

Actual acknowledgment means ... ?

Better yet is to attempt to understand how an atheist's head works, and what he bases his ethics on.

I do understand that many people don't need religion to tell them what is moral and what is not. But this is not the case for all people around the world. And religion isn't just about morality.

But yes I 100 % agree with what you said.

That sure surprises me, particularly coming from a Muslim and from you specifically.

This is our original context

You seem to believe that it is for everyone's benefit to have belief in God, even if for whatever reason some people do not want it and even claim to be incompatible with it.

What do you mean by, "for everyone's benefit"? If you mean it is better for the society if all were believers than I would say no for many reasons.

My point is that if one is not convinced, than he must not be forced to or must not be put under pressure to do it.

I thought, from previous posts, that you sincerely believed that each and every person would be better off if they found it on them to believe in God.

"If they found" those are the key words here

As you wish.

Thank you.

I just didn't want to to comment on other matters than the thread was addressing. I am not to "loved" on this forums lol