Atheists have faith.

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes that's great, and it might even get them to the pearlies, but whether they get let through is another matter.
The bouncer will ask them ONE question- "Are you a Christian?" and if they say "No", he's bound to tell them-

Well I see not one can know that, we an think we know, but I do not see that is even a good faith decision, as it is a judgement we are not authorised to make.

Regards Tony

 

[F1fan]

"But theists employ a type and definition of faith that atheists DON'T use, correct? No atheist comes close to anything like "living in Faith". That is a specifically religious phrase, especially that you capitalize Faith. That means it is a proper and very specific word with a specific meaning. It doesn't apply to atheists. Agree?"

Why would it be so scary to say that many things I do are based on certain levels of faith?

Why are you asking me, and avoiding my questions above?

What we are pointing out is that the word "faith" has numerous definitions, and various applications in language with specific contexts. You are being vague and misleading by blurring these definitions and contexts. It's a poorly designed trap that theists have used, as it only ends up trapping the theist in a bad faith argument.

It is not saying one beleives in a God, but it would be saying some actions are in tune with actions that people of faith have also embraced.

I can have faith in my local football team which happens to be the KC Chiefs. We've had three years of magical performances with two Super Bowl appearances and one win. Our faith has been met with great performances by the players. But we understand these are guys who are real, and can suffer the problems that humans face. They are 2-3 right now and the city is stunned. But we know this can happen. These guys are fallible, not Gods. They don't always win. We hope they will get the magic back. No guarantees, though.

But let's say your child develops Leukemia. It's a nasty cancer and not all children survive. The doctors might say your kid has a 70% chance to survive, so you fall on God to cover the last 30% and save your kid. You believe in God and have faith. You pray through your faith for a year and despite your faith your child dies. How does that happen? God always wins, God always gets the touchdown, God is perfect, God doesn't fail. How do you reconcile that your faith in a perfect being that always wins turned its back on you? Or maybe you worship the wrong God. Maybe God doesn't exist? Life or death, not a football game, how do you reconcile that your faith failed so miserably?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I mentioned to you in a previous post why it was valuable to clearly define what it is you think atheists have that you are calling faith, and you declined. I suggested that the word is used to mean both justified belief and unjustified belief, and that conflating these would lead to confusion as it has.

I do not see I have declined, it was in the opening OP, the quote gives the concept.

"All humanity must obtain a livelihood by sweat of the brow and bodily exertion, at the same time seeking to lift the burden of others, striving to be the source of comfort to souls and facilitating the means of living. This in itself is devotion to God. Bahá’u’lláh has thereby encouraged action and stimulated service."

So it is offered if a person in life lives by that advice, then that in itself is faith based actions, even if that is not acknowledged.

The other option is if this is the way they live their lives, what do the see is the source of that motivation?

Regards Tony

 

[F1fan]

The irony may be that we are not that different, it may be that it is just opinions that have seperated us.

Regards Tony

There's nothing wrong with different opinions. You like Coke, I like Pepsi, but does that separate us?

How far do you want to take uniformity of thought? My first example that sprang to mind was the book/film 1984.

There's no problem with a diversity of thought. The problem is opinions that are not rational nor based on fact. But given your religious beliefs you can't afford to say that sort of thing. You need to use vague wording and misleading statements that aim to absorb others to your way of belief.

A person with a good position with facts, and by using reason, would just argue their case with overwhelming precision. You avoid this approach.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Incidentally, I don't have the same respect for unjustified belief that you do.

What makes you think that I have respect for unjustifiable faith? What you mentioned horrifies me as well.

Regards Tony

 

[Tiberius]

This OP was inspired by a response in another post.

What is it to have Faith?

I see that many that do not have a belief in God or a Religion, still have Faith. I see that many actions are based on morals that transcend this mortal world and are thus undertaken in Faith.

It could be seen that it is naught but a faith to take a stance that there is no God.

Could that be a coping mechanism, that those that choose this path will not be held accountable for their decisions, that they think they are free of the weight of this world, that they will live how they want to, die and that's it?

Does this free a person from considering that there may be deeper moral or ethical responsibilities, when all we have to use as boundaries, are the materialistic trends?

Personally I have faith and I am thankful that I will be accountable for the decisions I make and the weight of the world can be fully experienced and appreciated.

"All humanity must obtain a livelihood by sweat of the brow and bodily exertion, at the same time seeking to lift the burden of others, striving to be the source of comfort to souls and facilitating the means of living. This in itself is devotion to God. Bahá’u’lláh has thereby encouraged action and stimulated service."

‘Abdu’l-Bahá: Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 182

" Every person must have an occupation, a trade or a craft, so that he may carry other people's burdens, and not himself be a burden to others."

‘Abdu’l-Bahá, The Compilation of Compilations vol. I, p. 3

Faith is a service to all we cross paths with, without faith, one can deprive themselves from such service. With Faith our heart longs to be of this service.

So I see an Athiest can have Faith when they too transcend their own desires and serve others in preference of self.

So that is the debate, but is it really a debate?

Do you give of yourself to others?

As this action is a fundamental Faith based moral decision, do you have faith that action leads to better outcomes?

Regards Tony

P/S Edited as the purpose is to explore our actions against faith, it is not to bash an atheist. Sorry it was not well worded.

When you say, "Faith," what do you mean? What makes something faith in your eyes?

From what you say in your post, about Faith being a service to others or something which means you are to be held accountable for your actions, I don't think that counts as religious faith. I'm not sure why you're using the word faith at all, given that there are other words that are better suited.

 

[F1fan]

No, it is something that God told Baha'u'llah.

Presumably.

Remember, no proof for religious belief.

 

[firedragon]

I don't know. Maybe. Just not in deities.

Well, that is also probably not true. Some even believe in some higher power.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So although I don't know what it is you mean by faith, I did want to rebut the idea that atheists must live by faith, to let you know what that word means to much of your atheist audience, and why some might consider it offensive or naive for a theist to tell an atheist he indulges in unjustified belief. If that's not what you meant, then I suggest being more clear in defining your terms. You garnered a lot of hostility in this thread, and it's a good bet it's because you were misunderstood.

Maybe that is the issue, I do not see a lot of faith as unjustifiable.

Many people have made it look that way by rejecting good science, but that is not my position.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

When you say, "Faith," what do you mean? What makes something faith in your eyes?

From what you say in your post, about Faith being a service to others or something which means you are to be held accountable for your actions, I don't think that counts as religious faith. I'm not sure why you're using the word faith at all, given that there are other words that are better suited.

The original OP offers why I would see it as Faith in this quote.

"All humanity must obtain a livelihood by sweat of the brow and bodily exertion, at the same time seeking to lift the burden of others, striving to be the source of comfort to souls and facilitating the means of living. This in itself is devotion to God. Bahá’u’lláh has thereby encouraged action and stimulated service."

That is my aim in my faith of God.

So what is being explored is, as that is my faiths purpose, what would another person see that goal as, if they do not subscribe to a faith, but practice those same goals?

There could be many out there that practice exactly that far better than I can, but still do not subscribe to a faith, so what are they using as a source, what do they see is the source of those activities?

It has been hard to clarify this, but I have tried over many posts to different people.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

A person with a good position with facts, and by using reason, would just argue their case with overwhelming precision. You avoid this approach.

There is good reason to avoid that approach, as facts and reason are relative and many people may reject what I see as strong facts and reason. Such as this post, I see many people show and have strong faith in actions, but would not want to call it faith.

"The Essence of Faith is fewness of words and abundance of deeds". Baha'u'llah

That will be the definition I use now.

Sourced here Bahá'í Reference Library - Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh Revealed After the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 155-157

Regards Tony

 

[F1fan]

There is good reason to avoid that approach, as facts and reason are relative ...

Facts and reason are objective and precise if properly used.

...and many people may reject what I see as strong facts and reason.

If you have facts and use proper reason then the only ones who may reject it are other theists. Objective minds respect facts and proper use of reason. Above you minimized the power of facts and reason, only then to further render these useless because others might reject it. You don't seem to value facts or reason, and are pussyfooting with excuses about it. So without facts and reason what do you have left? Propaganda? If you are going to argue for ideas you need to value the very things that give it power. Your negative attitude about facts and reason is like cutting off your foot to prepare for a marathon.

Such as this post, I see many people show and have strong faith in actions, but would not want to call it faith.

You seem to use the word "faith" liberally as synonymous with many other similar words. You could say strong drive in actions, or strong commitment in actions, etc. But these aren't synonymous with the religious faith meaning.

"Faith is fewness of words and abundance of deeds".

That will be the definition I use now.

It's clever advice, not a definition.

 

[Tiberius]

The original OP offers why I would see it as Faith in this quote.

"All humanity must obtain a livelihood by sweat of the brow and bodily exertion, at the same time seeking to lift the burden of others, striving to be the source of comfort to souls and facilitating the means of living. This in itself is devotion to God. Bahá’u’lláh has thereby encouraged action and stimulated service."

That is my aim in my faith of God.

So what is being explored is, as that is my faiths purpose, what would another person see that goal as, if they do not subscribe to a faith, but practice those same goals?

There could be many out there that practice exactly that far better than I can, but still do not subscribe to a faith, so what are they using as a source, what do they see is the source of those activities?

It has been hard to clarify this, but I have tried over many posts to different people.

Regards Tony

But why do you claim this should be the definition of faith? We already have words for this. Faith implies a religious belief (which is not required for what you described).

 

[lukethethird]

Ah. So you have a group with the person I asked the question from thus you have a religious affinity to answer for him? So who else are in this group?

All that know the secret handshake.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But why do you claim this should be the definition of faith? We already have words for this. Faith implies a religious belief (which is not required for what you described).

I see words are often and can be redefined and in the end what is being explored is where those abundance of deeds come from, what it it that motivates us it it based in a level of faith?

Maybe faith was always supposed to be defined by deeds, but over time men have changed the meaning so it does not include deeds, I know many Christians that see it that way, so that might be the issue?

Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

All that know the secret handshake.

Great.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Well, that is also probably not true. Some even believe in some higher power.

There's so many vague definitions of god that when I think of deities I think Zues, Athena, Jehovah, and things like that not higher power, incarnation, and personified profound version of love.

 

[RestlessSoul]

I see words are often and can be redefined and in the end what is being explored is where those abundance of deeds come from, what it it that motivates us it it based in a level of faith?

Maybe faith was always supposed to be defined by deeds, but over time men have changed the meaning so it does not include deeds, I know many Christians that see it that way, so that might be the issue?

Regards Tony

Perhaps this passage illustrates the point you are trying to make?

James 2:17-26

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Perhaps this passage illustrates the point you are trying to make?

James 2:17-26

Yes they are the verses I see in all scriptures that show faith is manifested in deeds.

I do not see any one is practising their faith, unless that have the deeds. That is why I also suggest that those who have these deeds show a strong faith, even when it is not realised, that what they do, is an essential part of faith.

Hope that was not word salad.

Regards Tony

 

[RestlessSoul]

Yes they are the verses I see in all scriptures that show faith is manifested in deeds.

I do not see any one is practising their faith, unless that have the deeds. That is why I also suggest that those who have these deeds show a strong faith, even when it is not realised, that what they do, is an essential part of faith.

Hope that was not word salad.

Regards Tony

Your words make perfect sense to me mate.

Even when I don’t agree with something you say, I know you always post in good faith.