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Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
You doubt what you are experiencing, and think it may be hallucination or illusion?

Technically, everything I have ever experienced could be an illusion. I can't actually prove any of it is real. The best I can do is reach the conclusion that what I am experiencing is internally self consistent. But I could, after all, be a brain in a jar hooked up to a computer that is providing me with stimulation that I interpret as existing in a body in this world.

Of course, in my day-to-day life, I go with the assumption that what I perceive to be real actually is real, but...
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
I'm not trying to promote an alternative here, I'm just pointing out that certainly is misplaced. The two major hypotheses about quantum gravity are Sting Theory and Loop Quantum Gravity. If you're interested just search for them and black holes. Here are a few articles:

Planck star - Wikipedia
Physics - Black Hole Evolution Traced Out with Loop Quantum Gravity
Fuzzball (string theory) - Wikipedia

As the subject was really cosmology, you might be interested (or not) in these about string theory and loop quantum gravity applied to that subject:

(the second one is missing sound for the first minute or so)

Thanks for the links, I'll have a read through them. As for the rest that I haven't quoted, I'll have a read through of your links before I go back to address them.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Of course, the existence of a specific figure is quite difference to the presence of intent.

I mean, if I drop a cup and break it and then claim it was an accident, could you ever prove I really intended to break it? Even if I really did have the intent to drop it and break it, even if there is video footage of me dropping it, proving that the intent was there is near impossible.

That should have read WITHOUT acknowledgement.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
Technically, everything I have ever experienced could be an illusion. I can't actually prove any of it is real. The best I can do is reach the conclusion that what I am experiencing is internally self consistent. But I could, after all, be a brain in a jar hooked up to a computer that is providing me with stimulation that I interpret as existing in a body in this world.

Of course, in my day-to-day life, I go with the assumption that what I perceive to be real actually is real, but...


So to an extent, everything you assume you know, requires an element of faith?
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
So to an extent, everything you assume you know, requires an element of faith?

Technically, yes.

But for most things, such as my belief I am currently sitting in a chair, or that I am currently in Sydney Australia, the amount of faith I require is extremely low. So low as to be irrelevant for all intents and purposes.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
Technically, yes.

But for most things, such as my belief I am currently sitting in a chair, or that I am currently in Sydney Australia, the amount of faith I require is extremely low. So low as to be irrelevant for all intents and purposes.


Fair enough. But if I was sitting in a chair beside you, and we were both looking, let’s say through the window at the clouds, just a little more faith would be required for us to acknowledge the existence of each other, and of the clouds.

And if we both attempted to describe what we were looking at, the likelihood is that we might quickly establish both similarities and differences in how we perceived what we saw. But we trust in language to effect communication between us, and we have faith in the shared experience, though we acknowledge it’s subjectivity.

Now imagine if one of us was blind, and had to explain to the other what was going on outside the window. How much more faith might be required then, on both parties?
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Okay. But do you have any comments about my response?

Not sure, but will comment on this

1. The prophecy must not be about something that is likely to happen anyway.
2. Where we have verified that the prophecy was written prior to the event that fulfilled it.
3. Where we have verified that the event that fulfilled it really took place in a way that fulfilled the prophecy.
4. The the fulfilling event was not done by someone simply to make the prophecy come true.
5. The prophecy is specific and is not open to interpretation.

Are you referring to biblical prophecy here?
I have one for you -
Jacob, ca 2000 BC in Egypt, gave the follow prophecy concerning Israel and the Messiah.
There will one day be a Hebrew nation under a monarchy and the law. This will last until
the Messiah comes - and the Messia will be believed upon of the nations.

That's one of three of my favorites. And Israel ended witih the coming Messiah who was
believed upon by the Gentiles, but rejected of the Jews.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
God has a nature, God is truth, God is Love. God cannot do the ungodlike thing. He cannot make evil that is good. God cannot create square circles etc.

If god just made you a robot, you wouldn't be a free will, son of God, potentially eternal being.

It seems like you are saying that God had no say in whether man had free will or not, and that if He could and did program your will, he couldn't get you into heaven or eternity.

Incidentally, the robot thing doesn't hold water. It assumes that if our will is determined for us, that that would make life empty, or at least less desirable. I disagree. We're already robots in the sense that we don't determine what we will want. Our urges and desires arise from neural circuitry. The next time you feel thirst, it will be your hypothalamus telling you that your blood is a little too hyperosmotic (concentrated, needing free water added to dilute it), and you will go seek a drink. That's as robotic as what I am describing - God determining what those urges will be rather than neural circuitry. It's no different to the individual - you have an urge or desire, and you fulfill it. But with expert guidance from a deity rather than internal processes, fulfilling the urge will always result in an optimal outcome.

So perhaps you're thinking that you're no slave to your urges, and that if you felt like it, you could deliberately ignore that imperative to drink from the hypothalamus, and that that extricates you from robot status.

But that idea to thwart the thirst relieving command is merely the output of a higher cortical center and its neural circuitry. You no more chose to have that thought than to be thirsty. It was given to you. The mind processes information at different levels and in different manners, often leading to conflicting desires, such as the smoker who is trying to quit experiencing an urge to smoke from lower centers, and an urge to suppress that desire coming from higher centers that understand that smoking is harmful and inform us to not indulge the lower desire and light up. We have an internal conflict, but we didn't choose either the urge or the thought about it, and we don't decide which one will prevail. It's a tug-of-war of sorts, and we don't decide its outcome. Sometimes, the understanding is stronger and prevents the urge from manifesting, and at other times, the urge overpowers the desire to quit.

That individual is no more or less robotic than somebody who receives his will from a god or a hypnotist. He had the same experience in each case - an idea pops into his head that suggests an action, and if he is not prevented from expressing it by higher cortical centers or by physical impediments, then he will act and have the experience of free will, sometimes called the illusion of free will. As long as one has a desire, no matter it's origin, if he can express it without impediment, he feels free. None of those mechanisms feels like being a robot, and if the actions informed by those desires lead to desirable outcomes more often than undesirable ones, then one has led a relatively satisfying life, even if a god was the source of that will.

The use of the word robot is intended to describe a shallow and undesirable experience of life, but there is no reason to think that if a god were able to give us proper urges only that the experience of life would be degraded by that. Au contraire, if all of the urges that led to all the mistakes that lead to pain, regret, shame, guilt, etc. were removed so that we lived our lives as well as possible, that would be a more fulfilling life, not less. A loving god that is able to do that would, just as a loving parent that could foresee and prevent bad outcomes for a child would use whatever means available to determine the child's will and behavior - be polite, control your anger, repay your debts, don't betray people, keep your promises, etc.. If we could just download those instruction into out children, we wouldn't ask them, we'd just do it just as we don't ask them if they want their childhood vaccines. We compel to behave as we instruct because we love them and won't allow their much more flawed decision making to obtain.

Anyway, I see that you continue to acknowledge much less rebut the restricted choice argument. Either you never read it, you read it but didn't understand it, or you understood it but decided it was best ignored. So, I'll make the response myself:

Yes, that was a compelling argument. Yes, I would feel very strongly that if a coin came up tails 100 times in a row, because it never did what fair coins do, namely come up heads, it is very likely that the coin can't come up heads. And I would agree that if a tax return had 20 mistakes in it and they were all in the taxpayer's favor, it is likely that the return was fraudulently prepared. And yes, if in every circumstance we can identify where things could have been different if the universe had an interventionalist god, but must be as we find it it does not, than the same reasoning applies, and the best explanation for that is that no such god exists. It's not a disproof of God, just like 100 consecutive flips of tails doesn't prove that the coin is loaded, but I'm not betting on heads or a god existing for the same reason.

In your case, I would add

I can't find a flaw in the argument or I would have mentioned it already. But I don't like what this argument suggests, so I will just say nothing, no matter how times I am encouraged to respond

Am I correct? If not, how?

You doubt what you are experiencing, and think it may be hallucination or illusion?

Technically, everything I have ever experienced could be an illusion. I can't actually prove any of it is real. The best I can do is reach the conclusion that what I am experiencing is internally self consistent. But I could, after all, be a brain in a jar hooked up to a computer that is providing me with stimulation that I interpret as existing in a body in this world. Of course, in my day-to-day life, I go with the assumption that what I perceive to be real actually is real, but...

Agreed. We can never really know what the metaphysical reality is. It is reasonable to assume that there is a material world existing outside of our minds, but we can't know that for certain as Descartes argued. We have no way of getting outside of our minds to see what's out there if anything. As has been mentioned, perhaps we are brains-in-a-vat or in a matrix-like dream state. We have no reason to believe that, but no way to rule it out, either.

But here's the interesting part, which you probably already understand: it doesn't matter. Even if we knew for a fact that our experiences were the product of Descartes demon and not the result of experiencing an objectively existing material world, we're still stuck in that world, and as long as the rules continue to work (why wouldn't they if they had before?), we go on as before, exercising our wills in a way that results in desired outcomes. It doesn't matter that that flame isn't actually there if we feel pain when we behave as if it is not. Even if we had ironclad proof that it was all a dream, if touching a dream flame leads to the pain of burning, we don't touch it. Nothing changes. And we go on acting as if there were a physical world out there, because it works even if it's wrong.

for most things, such as my belief I am currently sitting in a chair, or that I am currently in Sydney Australia, the amount of faith I require is extremely low. So low as to be irrelevant for all intents and purposes.

Agree again, but I would say that no faith is required to believe that you are sitting in a chair in Sydney if that's what your senses and intellect tell you, as long as you include philosophical doubt, which is understood and not felt, and which reduces your belief from certitude to near certitude. I only use the word faith to refer to unjustified belief. The belief that my car will start the next time I crank it like it did the last 200 times it was tested is not faith. It is a belief supported by evidence, therefore justified, therefore not faith as I define it. Others use the word faith to describe the justified belief that the car will probably start when tested next
 

infrabenji

Active Member
Agree again, but I would say that no faith is required to believe that you are sitting in a chair in Sydney if that's what your senses and intellect tell you, as long as you include philosophical doubt, which is understood and not felt, and which reduces your belief from certitude to near certitude. I only use the word faith to refer to unjustified belief. The belief that my car will start the next time I crank it like it did the last 200 times it was tested is not faith. It is a belief supported by evidence, therefore justified, therefore not faith as I define it. Others use the word faith to describe the justified belief that the car will probably start when tested next[/QUOTE]

Genuine question. Why is it so important for religious people to prove that people use faith with no mention to the extent of the claim. Sitting in a chair is sitting in a chair believing there is an all powerful universe creating wizard is another thing all together. Is it because if they can prove someone needs faith to prove they are sitting in a chair then they are justified in using faith to believe in extraordinary things like gods or the supernatural?
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Why is it so important for religious people to prove that people use faith with no mention to the extent of the claim. Sitting in a chair is sitting in a chair believing there is an all powerful universe creating wizard is another thing all together. Is it because if they can prove someone needs faith to prove they are sitting in a chair then they are justified in using faith to believe in extraordinary things like gods or the supernatural?

Yes.

The religious are attempting to level the playing field between themselves and the rational skeptics. They do this in two ways: Try to elevate religion to the level of thinking based on evidence and reason with specious apologetics that fool the unsophisticated into believing that there are strong scientific reasons to reject evolution, for example, and also by trying to portray science and critical thought as faith based through equivocation fallacies that depend on conflating different meanings of faith: "We're just as scientific and rational as you are as you can see from our arguments about 747s and junkyards, and you're just as faith-based as we are, because you believe evolution despite having no supporting evidence, so your opinions are no better than ours."

Of course, that is for the benefit of the believers, as is the case with all such apologetics. The apologists seldom recognize that what is effective in a Sunday school full of people who really don't know the science or how to reason without fallacy, is counterproductive when presented to people who can properly evaluate such arguments, and who just have their belief that they are dealing with people who really can't process evidence or come to sound conclusions reinforced.
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
It seems like you are saying that God had no say in whether man had free will or not, and that if He could and did program your will, he couldn't get you into heaven or eternity.

Incidentally, the robot thing doesn't hold water. It assumes that if our will is determined for us, that that would make life empty, or at least less desirable. I disagree. We're already robots in the sense that we don't determine what we will want. Our urges and desires arise from neural circuitry. The next time you feel thirst, it will be your hypothalamus telling you that your blood is a little too hyperosmotic (concentrated, needing free water added to dilute it), and you will go seek a drink. That's as robotic as what I am describing - God determining what those urges will be rather than neural circuitry. It's no different to the individual - you have an urge or desire, and you fulfill it. But with expert guidance from a deity rather than internal processes, fulfilling the urge will always result in an optimal outcome.

So perhaps you're thinking that you're no slave to your urges, and that if you felt like it, you could deliberately ignore that imperative to drink from the hypothalamus, and that that extricates you from robot status.

But that idea to thwart the thirst relieving command is merely the output of a higher cortical center and its neural circuitry. You no more chose to have that thought than to be thirsty. It was given to you. The mind processes information at different levels and in different manners, often leading to conflicting desires, such as the smoker who is trying to quit experiencing an urge to smoke from lower centers, and an urge to suppress that desire coming from higher centers that understand that smoking is harmful and inform us to not indulge the lower desire and light up. We have an internal conflict, but we didn't choose either the urge or the thought about it, and we don't decide which one will prevail. It's a tug-of-war of sorts, and we don't decide its outcome. Sometimes, the understanding is stronger and prevents the urge from manifesting, and at other times, the urge overpowers the desire to quit.

That individual is no more or less robotic than somebody who receives his will from a god or a hypnotist. He had the same experience in each case - an idea pops into his head that suggests an action, and if he is not prevented from expressing it by higher cortical centers or by physical impediments, then he will act and have the experience of free will, sometimes called the illusion of free will. As long as one has a desire, no matter it's origin, if he can express it without impediment, he feels free. None of those mechanisms feels like being a robot, and if the actions informed by those desires lead to desirable outcomes more often than undesirable ones, then one has led a relatively satisfying life, even if a god was the source of that will.

The use of the word robot is intended to describe a shallow and undesirable experience of life, but there is no reason to think that if a god were able to give us proper urges only that the experience of life would be degraded by that. Au contraire, if all of the urges that led to all the mistakes that lead to pain, regret, shame, guilt, etc. were removed so that we lived our lives as well as possible, that would be a more fulfilling life, not less. A loving god that is able to do that would, just as a loving parent that could foresee and prevent bad outcomes for a child would use whatever means available to determine the child's will and behavior - be polite, control your anger, repay your debts, don't betray people, keep your promises, etc.. If we could just download those instruction into out children, we wouldn't ask them, we'd just do it just as we don't ask them if they want their childhood vaccines. We compel to behave as we instruct because we love them and won't allow their much more flawed decision making to obtain.

Anyway, I see that you continue to acknowledge much less rebut the restricted choice argument. Either you never read it, you read it but didn't understand it, or you understood it but decided it was best ignored. So, I'll make the response myself:

Yes, that was a compelling argument. Yes, I would feel very strongly that if a coin came up tails 100 times in a row, because it never did what fair coins do, namely come up heads, it is very likely that the coin can't come up heads. And I would agree that if a tax return had 20 mistakes in it and they were all in the taxpayer's favor, it is likely that the return was fraudulently prepared. And yes, if in every circumstance we can identify where things could have been different if the universe had an interventionalist god, but must be as we find it it does not, than the same reasoning applies, and the best explanation for that is that no such god exists. It's not a disproof of God, just like 100 consecutive flips of tails doesn't prove that the coin is loaded, but I'm not betting on heads or a god existing for the same reason.

In your case, I would add

I can't find a flaw in the argument or I would have mentioned it already. But I don't like what this argument suggests, so I will just say nothing, no matter how times I am encouraged to respond

Am I correct? If not, how?





Agreed. We can never really know what the metaphysical reality is. It is reasonable to assume that there is a material world existing outside of our minds, but we can't know that for certain as Descartes argued. We have no way of getting outside of our minds to see what's out there if anything. As has been mentioned, perhaps we are brains-in-a-vat or in a matrix-like dream state. We have no reason to believe that, but no way to rule it out, either.

But here's the interesting part, which you probably already understand: it doesn't matter. Even if we knew for a fact that our experiences were the product of Descartes demon and not the result of experiencing an objectively existing material world, we're still stuck in that world, and as long as the rules continue to work (why wouldn't they if they had before?), we go on as before, exercising our wills in a way that results in desired outcomes. It doesn't matter that that flame isn't actually there if we feel pain when we behave as if it is not. Even if we had ironclad proof that it was all a dream, if touching a dream flame leads to the pain of burning, we don't touch it. Nothing changes. And we go on acting as if there were a physical world out there, because it works even if it's wrong.



Agree again, but I would say that no faith is required to believe that you are sitting in a chair in Sydney if that's what your senses and intellect tell you, as long as you include philosophical doubt, which is understood and not felt, and which reduces your belief from certitude to near certitude. I only use the word faith to refer to unjustified belief. The belief that my car will start the next time I crank it like it did the last 200 times it was tested is not faith. It is a belief supported by evidence, therefore justified, therefore not faith as I define it. Others use the word faith to describe the justified belief that the car will probably start when tested next

It seems you want God that has the events of your life all planned out for you through some software program.. That's a robot.

We do have instincts that seek satisfaction and by necessity we have to serve our bodies. There are obviously limitations to our freedoms within the sphere of our existence.
 

infrabenji

Active Member
Are you referring to biblical prophecy here?
I have one for you -
Jacob, ca 2000 BC in Egypt, gave the follow prophecy concerning Israel and the Messiah.
There will one day be a Hebrew nation under a monarchy and the law. This will last until
the Messiah comes - and the Messia will be believed upon of the nations.[/QUOTE]


Is this real? Do people really believe this? Isn’t that like reading a book about Donald Trump written by Donald Trump and his family and friends?
 
Agree again, but I would say that no faith is required to believe that you are sitting in a chair in Sydney if that's what your senses and intellect tell you, as long as you include philosophical doubt, which is understood and not felt, and which reduces your belief from certitude to near certitude. I only use the word faith to refer to unjustified belief. The belief that my car will start the next time I crank it like it did the last 200 times it was tested is not faith. It is a belief supported by evidence, therefore justified, therefore not faith as I define it. Others use the word faith to describe the justified belief that the car will probably start when tested next

Some good points here, I don’t think people have the same meaning of what faith is. For example I have faith that when I die I will be in Heaven with God forever because that is what He promised. What’s my evidence? My evidence is that when someone shared the Gospel with me that Jesus died for my sins, was buried and rose from the dead the 3rd day, I believed that and submitted my life to Jesus Christ that day. What happened next was I was born again, I couldn’t tell you at the time that’s what happened but I was changed that day, I saw things different and had a hunger to read the Bible and for the first time really understood it. I was so full of joy I couldn’t jump high enough to get the joy out. I was changed. I had a different appetite and didn’t desire the old life anymore, I wanted to know God more. That was 30 years ago. So faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God, God speaks and a person has to hear, at that point you can have faith (trust that God will do what He said) and act or not. That’s what happens now, God speaks and I continue to trust Him and follow Him. I have eternal life and have been given the Holy Spirit as a guarantee of the inheritance God has for me in Heaven.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
Not sure, but will comment on this

1. The prophecy must not be about something that is likely to happen anyway.
2. Where we have verified that the prophecy was written prior to the event that fulfilled it.
3. Where we have verified that the event that fulfilled it really took place in a way that fulfilled the prophecy.
4. The the fulfilling event was not done by someone simply to make the prophecy come true.
5. The prophecy is specific and is not open to interpretation.

Are you referring to biblical prophecy here?
I have one for you -
Jacob, ca 2000 BC in Egypt, gave the follow prophecy concerning Israel and the Messiah.
There will one day be a Hebrew nation under a monarchy and the law. This will last until
the Messiah comes - and the Messia will be believed upon of the nations.

That's one of three of my favorites. And Israel ended witih the coming Messiah who was
believed upon by the Gentiles, but rejected of the Jews.

Actually, they were guidelines I developed for another thread about prophecies regarding the Bahai faith. But they work well for any prophecy, I suppose. If you'd like to discuss my views on prophecy, please feel free to start a thread and send me a link, I'll be happy to participate.

In any case, do you have any evidence that there is some intent behind our existence in this universe, that were were placed here for some specific purpose? I ask because you appeared to have a problem with me saying there was no evidence we were here for a purpose back in post 497.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Actually, they were guidelines I developed for another thread about prophecies regarding the Bahai faith. But they work well for any prophecy, I suppose. If you'd like to discuss my views on prophecy, please feel free to start a thread and send me a link, I'll be happy to participate.

In any case, do you have any evidence that there is some intent behind our existence in this universe, that were were placed here for some specific purpose? I ask because you appeared to have a problem with me saying there was no evidence we were here for a purpose back in post 497.

Saying 'There's no evidence' carries with it the implication of 'it doesn't exist.'
You know the saying, 'Absense of evidence is not evidence for absense.'
By its very nature Gould's 'non-overlapping magisteria' applies here. Thus
there is exists absolutely no evidence for a spiritual realm.

But sometimes you get hints of things for which there's no evidence. Two
days ago I was on a two hour trip and I began to worry if I had my car jack,
wrench and spare tire. Sure enough I blew a tire - I suspected it would happen
because I get premonitions. But not always. How can I 'prove' this? I can't. Lots
won't even believe me. But that's ok - the premonition is for me.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Actually, they were guidelines I developed for another thread about prophecies regarding the Bahai faith. But they work well for any prophecy, I suppose. If you'd like to discuss my views on prophecy, please feel free to start a thread and send me a link, I'll be happy to participate.

In any case, do you have any evidence that there is some intent behind our existence in this universe, that were were placed here for some specific purpose? I ask because you appeared to have a problem with me saying there was no evidence we were here for a purpose back in post 497.

Liked this thought from Jordan Peterson just now, "To what extent is sublime religious experience subjective"?
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
Saying 'There's no evidence' carries with it the implication of 'it doesn't exist.'
You know the saying, 'Absense of evidence is not evidence for absense.'
By its very nature Gould's 'non-overlapping magisteria' applies here. Thus
there is exists absolutely no evidence for a spiritual realm.

But sometimes you get hints of things for which there's no evidence. Two
days ago I was on a two hour trip and I began to worry if I had my car jack,
wrench and spare tire. Sure enough I blew a tire - I suspected it would happen
because I get premonitions. But not always. How can I 'prove' this? I can't. Lots
won't even believe me. But that's ok - the premonition is for me.

Two things.

First of all, absence iof evidence IS evidence of absence if that evidence should be there. For example, if I want to know if there is water in the bath, I don't need to check the entire volume of the bath. I can check just the lowest part of the bath, and if there is no water there, I can conclude that the bath is empty. After all, if there's no water on the bottom of the bath, I know there won't be any higher up.

Secondly, your premonitions may be an example of confirmation bias. Of course, you will remember when you have a premonition about something going wrong and then that thing goes wrong. But what about all the times you have a premonition about something going wrong, but then nothing happens? And what about the times when things go wrong and you have no premonition at all? Those are easily forgotten, and you end up remembering only the times when your premonitions were correct. This makes it seem like they happen more often than they really do.
 
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