Atheism is not a belief, so why would anyone lie that it is?

[Windwalker]

Look... I DO happen to also believe, positively, that there is no God. Okay? And I am not "ashamed" to say it. Far from it. I think the idea is the dumbest thing I have ever come across in my entire life. Hands down. Dumb as all hell. The idea of God is the worst sort of stupid trash I can imagine. Oh teh noes! I am so ashamed! Hahahaha... no.

Then you agree that atheism is a propositional belief. Same as me. We have no disagreement.

But, here's the thing... I am NOT about to go around arguing that "God doesn't exist." Because that is also dumb. I don't know whether or not He/She/It/Stupid exists. And I know that I don't know this. A theist, however, DOES NOT KNOW THAT THEY DON'T KNOW. In fact, they think they DO know.

Not all theists are evangelists either. Glad you're not an atheistic evangelical, trying to convince others your beliefs are the truth.

Besides this... if you don't like the word atheism, then you need to come up with the word for someone who doesn't tentatively believe your claim of God when you make it just based on the fact that you made it.

I don't dislike the word atheist. I called myself an atheist for over 10 years, and had no problem saying I didn't believe it God, or saying that is how I believed. I never got why others were so uncomfortable admitting it themselves, when they were clearly making a propositional statements about the existence of God in the negative. That's a belief when it's a proposition. No getting around that.

Because that's what we're looking at. You make a claim about God, I am going to ask for evidence, and when what you bring to the table is paltry garbage, then I am going to reply with "I don't believe you." Not that I know you're wrong... there's just no reason to believe you.

Actually, I've made no claims whatsoever about God existing in this thread. My only point was that atheism is a propositional belief about the existence of God. Not whether or not its true. That's irrelevant. Saying it's not a belief, when it's a statement about whether or not one propositionally believes God exists or not, is dishonest, in my informed opinion.

Just like if I came to you asking if you wanted to buy a bridge off of me, but when you asked to see the deed, I gave you a piece of Monopoly money.

I'm not making an argument about God existing or not. Just that atheism is an answer to theism, which itself is a belief. BOTH are beliefs.

 

[Lain]

But that is not the belief of atheists. Well not the belief of all atheists.

No, I take that back. It is still wrong for all atheists. And it is also incorrect. There is a difference.

How is it wrong for all atheists and how do you define a belief? One (actually two) great atheist I knew before affirmed as true that it is certain that God does not exist, and not only that, she argued that it was impossible for God to exist. Is that not a belief? If not how do you define it [belief]?

 

[Sheldon]

I understand your point... but I don't think you are the status quo. You sound more like an agnostic at this point. Certainly it doesn't fit into the proper definition of atheism.

entomology:
atheism (n.)
"the doctrine that there is no God;" "disbelief in any regularity in the universe to which man must conform himself under penalties" [J.R. Seeley, "Natural Religion," 1882], 1580s, from French athéisme (16c.), with -ism + Greek atheos "without a god, denying the gods," from a- "without" (see a- (3)) + theos "a god" (from PIE root *dhes-, forming words for religious concepts). A slightly earlier form is represented by atheonism (1530s) which is perhaps from Italian atheo "atheist." The ancient Greek noun was atheotes "ungodliness."

If you quote a definition could you please offer a link as a citation so we know where it has come from, as this is key to the discussion.

Also agnosticism and atheism are not mutually exclusive. Agnosticism is a belief that nothing is known or can be known about the nature or existence of a deity. Now this to me defines all unfalsifiable beliefs and claim, and I must remain agnostic about all unfalsifiable claims, but I would also have to withhold belief, why would I believe a claim that I profess i can know nothing about?

 

[Laika]

Clearly atheism is not a belief, one has only to look it up in any dictionary to see this. So lets see if anyone wants to misrepresent it as a belief in this poll.

I am an atheist and I believe there is no god.

I believe that the absence of god is an objectively knowable quality of the natural and material world.

I believe that god is a superstition and an illusion created by man. The belief in god has been widely held and perpetuated by the church and the clergy throughout history as a false belief due to errors in reasoning where we project human qualities on to nature, such as consciousness, intention and design.

And, based on recognising how a similar error may affect our moral reasoning so that we attribute the source of morals to god or as a property of nature or the soul (i.e. “human nature”), when it in fact comes from man, yes, I am willing to associate with Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot as representatives of Marxist Atheism and with Fredrich Nietzsche and the Marquis De Sade as ammoral representatives of atheism too.

and the willingness to question the meaning and purpose of existence and the possibility of moral and existential nihilism can be depressing or a lot of fun depending how you use it.

so I voted “I lie that atheism is a belief” because I believe there is no god and many of the implications or criticisms people have of atheism do apply to me. I do appear to be the exception to the “lack of belief” definition of atheism on the forums though…

I just occasionally want to do this during Christmas because I don’t really want to celebrate the birth of a two thousand year old cult leader. I’m not wrong, just different.

 

[Suave]

Well no, common usage is reflected in mainstream dictionaries, one could cite a dictionary that offers a definition that differs from the commonly understood definition, someone already has linked several, but the primary definition remains the same, unless common usage or understanding demands it is altered.

So I am to assume all atheists simply lack belief in gods or God in contrast to considering some atheists believe there is an absolute zero chance of any gods or Gods actually existing? Sheldon, you know what likely happens when I assume.

 

[Altfish]

Clearly atheism is not a belief, one has only to look it up in any dictionary to see this. So lets see if anyone wants to misrepresent it as a belief in this poll.

It is Not a belief, it is a lack of belief.
A bit like not playing football is not a hobby.

 

[Sheldon]

Then you agree that atheism is a propositional belief. Same as me. We have no disagreement.

No, that's not what he said at all, his personal opinion doesn't change common usage of a word, that's why I started this thread, because people keep making this rather bizarre assertion.

 

[Lain]

atheism noun - Definition, pictures, pronunciation and usage notes | Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary at OxfordLearnersDictionaries.com

OED still defines it as the lack or absence of belief in any deity or deities, and that's what I get from Google. I wonder if some US sources are reflecting common usage in their country primarily? It is one of the most religious countries, certainly among western democracies anyway.

Merriam Webster
a lack of belief or a strong disbelief in the existence of a god or any gods.

Interestingly Collins gives a separate definition for UK English.

NOUN
1. a person who does not believe in God or gods

So perhaps we're getting a feel here for why this conflict of opinion is arising. A lot of US religious apologists Lane Craig for instance has been actively trying to portray atheism as a belief that requires faith for some time.

In the UK atheism is no big deal at all, as with many European democracies.

The conflict of opinion also has to do with the varieties of atheism and how one defines "belief." Some equate it to what I see as the supernatural infused virtue of faith, and I do not think all atheists have that, probably not even most (I don't know who has it or not). Some just equate it with thinking a proposition is true, for instance "I exist" would be a belief, "God does not exist" would be a belief, "human blood is usually red" would also be a belief, etc. And the middle of those is what some atheists hold.

Like I said initially, no vote because it depends on how one defines atheism and belief.

 

[Windwalker]

Well no, common usage is reflected in mainstream dictionaries, one could cite a dictionary that offers a definition that differs from the commonly understood definition, someone already has linked several, but the primary definition remains the same, unless common usage or understanding demands it is altered.

A dictionary is the worst place to get a real understanding of the philosophical meanings of words. If you want to understand "faith" for instance you don't turn to a dictionary. You turn to experts who spend their lives on the subjects. That is true with any subject. The dictionary, is not the Bible.

 

[Windwalker]

No, that's not what he said at all, his personal opinion doesn't change common usage of a word, that's why I started this thread, because people keep making this rather bizarre assertion.

Atheism and Agnosticism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

 

[Kenny]

If you quote a definition could you please offer a link as a citation so we know where it has come from, as this is key to the discussion.

Also agnosticism and atheism are not mutually exclusive. Agnosticism is a belief that nothing is known or can be known about the nature or existence of a deity. Now this to me defines all unfalsifiable beliefs and claim, and I must remain agnostic about all unfalsifiable claims, but I would also have to withhold belief, why would I believe a claim that I profess i can know nothing about?

atheism | Etymology, origin and meaning of atheism by etymonline

And, according to the etymology, atheism is a faith since it holds a position without empirical and verifiable evidence.

 

[Sheldon]

So I am to assume all atheists simply lack belief in gods or God in contrast to considering some atheists believe there is an absolute zero chance of any gods or Gods actually existing? Sheldon, you know what likely happens when I assume.

OK all atheist lack belief in any deity or deities, that's correct, and that is the primary definition of atheism.

However, some atheists also hold a belief that no deity exists.

It would be dishonest however to misrepresent the common usage of the word atheism as involving a belief.

All thumbs are fingers, but not all fingers are thumbs.

 

[Sheldon]

Atheism and Agnosticism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

That is not a mainstream dictionary, and this is what I mean by dishonestly misrepresenting the primary definition, as that is not what it offers. Just because you can find a reference tool offering definitions that differ from the primary definition, does not change that primary definition.

 

[Windwalker]

That is not a mainstream dictionary, and this is what I mean by dishonestly misrepresenting the primary definition.

It's way, way better than a dictionary! Do you think a dictionary is superior to an article written by scholars specializing in these topics?? Do you not understand how dictionaries are made, and why they are not authoritative primary sources? Dictionaries are not encyclopedias.

You cannot quote them like scripture, which is how you are trying to use them.

 

[Secret Chief]

Well no, common usage is reflected in mainstream dictionaries, one could cite a dictionary that offers a definition that differs from the commonly understood definition, someone already has linked several, but the primary definition remains the same, unless common usage or understanding demands it is altered.

The links don't exactly seem to be outliers though?

 

[Sheldon]

atheism | Etymology, origin and meaning of atheism by etymonline

And, according to the etymology, atheism is a faith since it holds a position without empirical and verifiable evidence.

The first christians were called atheists, what's your point? Etymology is fascinating no doubt, but I am talking about the primary definition derived through common usage. maybe you think mainstream dictionaries are not the best reference tools for common usage? I'm inclined to disagree but by all means if that's your position you could explain why in this instance we should deviate from that standard? We don't seem to do it for other words.

 

[Sheldon]

The links don't exactly seem to be outliers though?

I don't believe I claimed they were? In fact I'm not sure what you mean by outliers? Words change over time that is a fact, and if that happens I may have to stop calling myself an atheist, or qualify what I mean by it. However I would still lack any belief in any deity or deities, and it still wouldn't be a positive claim or belief.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

......... Weak atheism/weak nullifidianism does not assert there is no God or gods.

Back in the 60's my high school English teacher said she was an Agnostic ( Not sure if there is a God )

 

[Laika]

The first christians were called atheists, what's your point? Etymology is fascinating no doubt, but I am talking about the primary definition derived through common usage. maybe you think mainstream dictionaries are not the best reference tools for common usage? I'm inclined to disagree but by all means if that's your position you could explain why in this instance we should deviate from that standard? We don't seem to do it for other words.

the concept of “god” has evolved over thousands of years, going through dramatic transformations according to different cultures, philosophies, traditions and periods in history.

wouldn’t you agree that defining how we reject the God concept in atheism may be more complex and philosophically nuanced than a dictionary definition would allow?

 

[Sheldon]

Let's try something a little meatier than some entry in Wikipedia. From Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy entry on

Is that a dictionary?

I'm not talking about philosophical terms, and from one US university reference tool?

Common usage is what we are discussing here, no one is disputing there are other definitions people apply.