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Atheism is not a belief, so why would anyone lie that it is?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Sheldon, Nov 8, 2021.

?
  1. Yes I accept the fact that atheism is not a belief.

    80.6%
  2. No, I lie that atheism is a belief.

    19.4%
  1. Snow White

    Snow White Veteran Member

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    I've wrapped my head around what's being discussed a few posts back. My only further statements are that I see atheists using the definition of atheism as a defense sometimes in debates, and it looks bad if they themselves use that definition after saying things like "There is no God.", to excuse having a burden of proof to such positive statements. The problem with them further citing the definition, is statements like "There is no God." kind of go against the definition of atheism, in my opinion. Better to say "I lack belief in God."
     
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  2. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    There are two aspects of how we use the word "atheist" that I find useful when considering proposed definitions for the word:

    1. Theists aren't atheists. Anyone who believes in any sort of god is not an atheist.

    2. Atheists exist. They aren't some hypothetical thing that people speculate might exist; they really do exist, and in significant numbers.

    I think that both of these criteria reflect usage... do you - or anyone else reading this - agree?
     
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  3. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    I am sure that there are some Muslim ones that will give it a run for the money. You should not be so jealous.
     
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  4. A Vestigial Mote

    A Vestigial Mote Well-Known Member

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    Bullcrap. The only option I see missing is something for people who are ignorant of the facts when they talk about atheism as a belief. Someone who doesn't know (yet) that they are lying, in other words.

    Please DESCRIBE the options you see as missing.

    The two options are a dichotomy, if you take out the word "lie." As in:

    1. I accept the fact that atheism is not a belief
    2. No, I do not accept the fact that atheism is not a belief
    Because there has already been plenty of discussion surrounding the idea that the word "FACT" in those sentences is correct (i.e. that atheism is not a belief). So, when you add back in the word "lie", the only thing that means is missing at that point is an option for someone who does not accept that atheism is not a belief, but doesn't know that they are lying when they say that it is. For, to be sure, once you KNOW that it is not a belief, to say that it is IS LYING. Of course, this all almost makes the inclusion of the word "lie" moot at that point - because to accept the fact is to then automatically be lying when you speak against what you know to be facts.

    Of course... I am pretty sure that @firedragon has blocked me, due to my being extremely combative with him over many of the claims (and quasi-claims - as in, claims he knows he can't make outright, but hints strongly at anyway) he makes in various posts and threads. So it is likely he won't even be able to read this. Pity. I always enjoy smashing his posts to bits.
     
  5. Lain

    Lain Well-Known Member

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    Whether or not I agree or disagree depends on a great many things I am too deficient to grasp currently. I don't know, it's beyond my strength. Thanks for asking me though.
     
  6. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    I didn't know they had bacon flavored parmesan. Learn sumpin new every day.
     
  7. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    I don't think it's that they lie, but that they can't comprehend basic logic.
     
  8. Suave

    Suave Simulated character

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    Seems to me, atheism has a strong negative connotation among many theists who might likely consider denial of God's existence as being blasphemous. To avoid such negative stigma, I'd like to suggest the word nulliifidianism be used in place of the word atheism, so that nobody gets irked by the word of atheism. Sheldon, would you prefer to be labeled as an atheist or as a nullifidianist? I'd like to pose this question also to all atheists. Would you prefer to be labeled as an atheist or as a nullifidianist?

    Never mind, I can't spell nullifidian!
     
    #48 Suave, Nov 8, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2021
  9. Sheldon

    Sheldon Well-Known Member

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    atheism noun - Definition, pictures, pronunciation and usage notes | Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary at OxfordLearnersDictionaries.com

    OED still defines it as the lack or absence of belief in any deity or deities, and that's what I get from Google. I wonder if some US sources are reflecting common usage in their country primarily? It is one of the most religious countries, certainly among western democracies anyway.

    Merriam Webster
    a lack of belief or a strong disbelief in the existence of a god or any gods.

    Interestingly Collins gives a separate definition for UK English.

    NOUN
    1. a person who does not believe in God or gods

    So perhaps we're getting a feel here for why this conflict of opinion is arising. A lot of US religious apologists Lane Craig for instance has been actively trying to portray atheism as a belief that requires faith for some time.

    In the UK atheism is no big deal at all, as with many European democracies.
     
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  10. Sheldon

    Sheldon Well-Known Member

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    OK interesting, but this poll is about the definition of atheism rather than what an individual atheists claims or believes.
     
  11. Windwalker

    Windwalker Veteran Member
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    Cleary it is. "I believe God does not exist" is identical with saying, "I do not believe God exists". No difference.
     
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  12. Sheldon

    Sheldon Well-Known Member

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    Well I was looking primarily at the definition of atheism, but clearly atheists can be subcategorised, as some go farther than disbelief. So if all you have is the fact someone is an atheist, I'd say all you can honestly say is that they don't believe in any deity or deities. Unless they specifically offer more of course.
     
  13. AlexanderG

    AlexanderG Active Member

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    The way I see it, there's a set of people who are convinced a god or gods exist. Then there's the set of everyone else, and that's the atheists.
     
  14. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    But that is not the belief of atheists. Well not the belief of all atheists.

    No, I take that back. It is still wrong for all atheists. And it is also incorrect. There is a difference.
     
  15. Sheldon

    Sheldon Well-Known Member

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    Can you explain why we have different words then, belief and disbelief or unbelief. If your absurd claim were true, then 2 of those words seem to have no meaning. Believing a deity exists is a claim, as are all beliefs, disbelieving a deity exists is not a claim, that's the difference.
     
    #55 Sheldon, Nov 8, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2021
  16. Windwalker

    Windwalker Veteran Member
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    I can't vote. You did not present an honest legitimate poll. Neither answer is how I would respond.

    Add a 3rd choice as an option. "I speak the truth, atheism is a belief". I'll check that one. It's also a position of faith, but I'll just accept saying it is a belief for now. ;)
     
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  17. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    My atheism is a belief.

    Don't need a dictionary to tell me that.
     
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  18. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    It can be for some. But it is not for all. That is why the blanket statement of "Atheism is a belief" is wrong.
     
  19. Suave

    Suave Simulated character

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    So you are a nullifidianist? Do you absolutely reject the notion of there possibly being a sims controller, a virtual reality programmer of human consciousness?
     
  20. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    It is pretty simple, in my view.

    It is the assent of the mind of the atheist of a proposition or statement that there is no God, for which their is not complete evidence... it is their belief in general.
     
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