Atheism is not a belief, so why would anyone lie that it is?

[Augustus]

It can be for some. But it is not for all. That is why the blanket statement of "Atheism is a belief" is wrong.

When a word has multiple usages, you can't claim that all except your personal preference are "wrong".

 

[Sheldon]

I can't vote. You did not present an honest legitimate poll. Neither answer is how I would respond.

Add a 3rd choice as an option. "I speak the truth, atheism is a belief". I'll check that one. It's also a position of faith, but I'll just accept saying it is a belief for now.

Well you seem to think belief and disbelief are "identical", so maybe this poll is not for you.

Atheism, in the broadest sense, is an absence of belief in the existence of deities.[1][2][3][4] Less broadly, atheism is a rejection of the belief that any deities exist.[5][6] In an even narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.

 

[Suave]

It is pretty simple, in my view.



It is the assent of the mind of the atheist of a proposition or statement that there is no God, for which their is not complete evidence... it is their belief in general.

I agree with Revoltingest that strong atheism/strong nullifidianism is a belief in the absolute certainty there is no God or gods. Weak atheism/weak nullifidianism is the lack of belief in a god or Gods. Weak atheism/weak nullifidianism does not assert there is no God or gods.

 

[Sheldon]

When a word has multiple usages, you can't claim that all except your personal preference are "wrong".

I agree, but that's not what was asked, we're talking about the primary definition. Some smaller dictionaries seem to differ from the mainstream reference tools, like The Oxford English and Merriam Webster's, some post them in a different order to the mainstream dictionaries, but don't number them, which seems arbitrary to me, as these numbers are supposed to represent common usage. Not many people say they are feeling gay nowadays if they are very happy, but the word still has the definition as well as the more commonly used definition.

 

[Subduction Zone]

When a word has multiple usages, you can't claim that all except your personal preference are "wrong".

<sigh> I am not saying that yours is wrong. What is wrong is an over generalization. Once again, for you it is correct to say that atheism is a belief. It is not correct to use it for all atheists. That is all. Pointing out that it is not a belief for some atheists does not mean that those atheists that do have a belief are wrong. I am saying that the overgeneralization is wrong.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Clearly atheism is not a belief, one has only to look it up in any dictionary to see this................

Isn't atheism the ' belief ' that there is No God/god _____________

 

[Sheldon]

Once again, for you it is correct to say that atheism is a belief. It is not correct to use it for all atheists.

Or for most atheists one would think, since common usage would surely change if that were the case?

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

It is pretty simple, in my view.



It is the assent of the mind of the atheist of a proposition or statement that there is no God, for which their is not complete evidence... it is their belief in general.

But I don't believe that there is no God. I understand that I have no way of knowing one way or the other. I just don't believe your claim that there is one. I don't believe anyone's claim that there is one based on just hearing the claim alone.

Just like you wouldn't believe me if I told you your wife was an alien and needed to die to save the human race just based on hearing me make that claim alone. Except that you may actually be able to provide rock solid evidence to me that your wife is a human being. With the whole "god" proposition, no one has evidence like that. They just have more words. Like 25 people coming to you and telling you that your wife is an alien... but they all answer with different planet names when you ask "Where is she from then?"

 

[Sheldon]

Isn't atheism the ' belief ' that there is No God/god _____________

In its broadest sense no, but that is what is we are trying to discuss. If you Google atheism what definition does it throw up?

 

[Windwalker]

Well you seem to think belief and disbelief are "identical", so maybe this poll is not for you.

Atheism, in the broadest sense, is an absence of belief in the existence of deities.[1][2][3][4] Less broadly, atheism is a rejection of the belief that any deities exist.[5][6] In an even narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.

Let's try something a little meatier than some entry in Wikipedia. From Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy entry on Atheism and Agnosticism:

“Atheism” is typically defined in terms of “theism”. Theism, in turn, is best understood as a proposition—something that is either true or false. It is often defined as “the belief that God exists”, but here “belief” means “something believed”. It refers to the propositional content of belief, not to the attitude or psychological state of believing. This is why it makes sense to say that theism is true or false and to argue for or against theism. If, however, “atheism” is defined in terms of theism and theism is the proposition that God exists and not the psychological condition of believing that there is a God, then it follows that atheism is not the absence of the psychological condition of believing that God exists (more on this below). The “a-” in “atheism” must be understood as negation instead of absence, as “not” instead of “without”. Therefore, in philosophy at least, atheism should be construed as the proposition that God does not exist (or, more broadly, the proposition that there are no gods).
​

Well, there you go. "I believe God does not exist" is a propositional belief. Everything I have been saying all along, even during the years I self-identified as an atheist. I speak the truth. There is nothing wrong in calling it a belief. Why are you ashamed to say that?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

In its broadest sense no, but that is what is we are trying to discuss. If you Google atheism what definition does it throw up?

Thank you for your reply.
Since it can Not be proven that there is No God, then atheism can be the 'exercise of faith' (belief) in the non-existence of God/god _______

 

[Secret Chief]

atheism noun - Definition, pictures, pronunciation and usage notes | Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary at OxfordLearnersDictionaries.com

OED still defines it as the lack or absence of belief in any deity or deities, and that's what I get from Google. I wonder if some US sources are reflecting common usage in their country primarily? It is one of the most religious countries, certainly among western democracies anyway.

Merriam Webster
a lack of belief or a strong disbelief in the existence of a god or any gods.

Interestingly Collins gives a separate definition for UK English.

NOUN
1. a person who does not believe in God or gods

So perhaps we're getting a feel here for why this conflict of opinion is arising. A lot of US religious apologists Lane Craig for instance has been actively trying to portray atheism as a belief that requires faith for some time.

In the UK atheism is no big deal at all, as with many European democracies.

So this thread seems to reflect which dictionary/reference definitions one considers to be "correct" ?

 

[Sheldon]

It is the assent of the mind of the atheist of a proposition or statement that there is no God, for which their is not complete evidence... it is their belief in general.

That does not describe my atheism, nor many of the atheists here, what's more the primary dictionary definition, at least in mainstream dictionaries does not define it as a belief. If I google it this is how it is defined...

Atheism
noun

1. disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

Synonyms non-belief non-theism disbelief unbelief scepticism doubt

So what does Google define it as when you search for the definition?

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Let's try something a little meatier than some entry in Wikipedia. From Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy entry on Atheism and Agnosticism:

“Atheism” is typically defined in terms of “theism”. Theism, in turn, is best understood as a proposition—something that is either true or false. It is often defined as “the belief that God exists”, but here “belief” means “something believed”. It refers to the propositional content of belief, not to the attitude or psychological state of believing. This is why it makes sense to say that theism is true or false and to argue for or against theism. If, however, “atheism” is defined in terms of theism and theism is the proposition that God exists and not the psychological condition of believing that there is a God, then it follows that atheism is not the absence of the psychological condition of believing that God exists (more on this below). The “a-” in “atheism” must be understood as negation instead of absence, as “not” instead of “without”. Therefore, in philosophy at least, atheism should be construed as the proposition that God does not exist (or, more broadly, the proposition that there are no gods).
​

Well, there you go. "I believe God does not exist" is a propositional belief. Everything I have been saying all along, even during the years I self-identified as an atheist. I speak the truth. There is nothing wrong in calling it a belief. Why are you ashamed to say that?

Look... I DO happen to also believe, positively, that there is no God. Okay? And I am not "ashamed" to say it. Far from it. I think the idea is the dumbest thing I have ever come across in my entire life. Hands down. Dumb as all hell. The idea of God is the worst sort of stupid trash I can imagine. Oh teh noes! I am so ashamed! Hahahaha... no.

But, here's the thing... I am NOT about to go around arguing that "God doesn't exist." Because that is also dumb. I don't know whether or not He/She/It/Stupid exists. And I know that I don't know this. A theist, however, DOES NOT KNOW THAT THEY DON'T KNOW. In fact, they think they DO know.

Besides this... if you don't like the word atheism, then you need to come up with the word for someone who doesn't tentatively believe your claim of God when you make it just based on the fact that you made it. Because that's what we're looking at. You make a claim about God, I am going to ask for evidence, and when what you bring to the table is paltry garbage, then I am going to reply with "I don't believe you." Not that I know you're wrong... there's just no reason to believe you.

Just like if I came to you asking if you wanted to buy a bridge off of me, but when you asked to see the deed, I gave you a piece of Monopoly money.

Now, do you literally KNOW that I don't own the bridge? DO YOU??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? No. But do you BELIEVE that I own the bridge? Hahahahahaha... NO!!!!!!!!!!!! This concept is SO SIMPLE. What the hell is going on here?

 

[Sheldon]

Since it can Not be proven that there is No God, then atheism can be the 'exercise of faith' (belief) in the non-existence of God/god _______

Well that depends how you are defining the diety and what claims you are making. So no, not atheism per se, but an atheist can hold such a belief theoretically based on faith. I don't believe I ever remember an atheist claiming this, but I imagine there must be at least one out there. Some deities might be a falsifiable concept, and some can be falsified, at least using rational argument. Since no theists appears to be able to demsonrate objective evidence for any deity, then falsifying them is only possible in the abstract, since that is how they are offered, at least that has been my experience.

 

[Kenny]

I agree with Revoltingest that strong atheism/strong nullifidianism is a belief in the absolute certainty there is no God or gods. Weak atheism/weak nullifidianism is the lack of belief in a god or Gods. Weak atheism/weak nullifidianism does not assert there is no God or gods.

I will have to add a Christian "Amen"! to that.

 

[Kenny]

But I don't believe that there is no God. I understand that I have no way of knowing one way or the other. I just don't believe your claim that there is one. I don't believe anyone's claim that there is one based on just hearing the claim alone.

Just like you wouldn't believe me if I told you your wife was an alien and needed to die to save the human race just based on hearing me make that claim alone. Except that you may actually be able to provide rock solid evidence to me that your wife is a human being. With the whole "god" proposition, no one has evidence like that. They just have more words. Like 25 people coming to you and telling you that your wife is an alien... but they all answer with different planet names when you ask "Where is she from then?"

I understand your point... but I don't think you are the status quo. You sound more like an agnostic at this point. Certainly it doesn't fit into the proper definition of atheism.

entomology:
atheism (n.)
"the doctrine that there is no God;" "disbelief in any regularity in the universe to which man must conform himself under penalties" [J.R. Seeley, "Natural Religion," 1882], 1580s, from French athéisme (16c.), with -ism + Greek atheos "without a god, denying the gods," from a- "without" (see a- (3)) + theos "a god" (from PIE root *dhes-, forming words for religious concepts). A slightly earlier form is represented by atheonism (1530s) which is perhaps from Italian atheo "atheist." The ancient Greek noun was atheotes "ungodliness."

 

[Sheldon]

So this thread seems to reflect which dictionary definitions one considers to be "correct" ?

Well no, common usage is reflected in mainstream dictionaries, one could cite a dictionary that offers a definition that differs from the commonly understood definition, someone already has linked several, but the primary definition remains the same, unless common usage or understanding demands it is altered.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I understand your point... but I don't think you are the status quo. You sound more like an agnostic at this point. Certainly it doesn't fit into the proper definition of atheism.

entomology:
atheism (n.)
"the doctrine that there is no God;" "disbelief in any regularity in the universe to which man must conform himself under penalties" [J.R. Seeley, "Natural Religion," 1882], 1580s, from French athéisme (16c.), with -ism + Greek atheos "without a god, denying the gods," from a- "without" (see a- (3)) + theos "a god" (from PIE root *dhes-, forming words for religious concepts). A slightly earlier form is represented by atheonism (1530s) which is perhaps from Italian atheo "atheist." The ancient Greek noun was atheotes "ungodliness."

What do insects have to do with the discussion?

 

[Kenny]

That does not describe my atheism, nor many of the atheists here, what's more the primary dictionary definition, at least in mainstream dictionaries does not define it as a belief. If I google it this is how it is defined...

Atheism
noun

1. disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

Synonyms non-belief non-theism disbelief unbelief scepticism doubt

So what does Google define it as when you search for the definition?

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