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Featured Atheism doesn't exist?:)

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Rabbi Daniel, Jan 12, 2020.

  1. Heyo

    Heyo Well-Known Member

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    Agnostic, in the meaning that Huxley used when he introduced the concept to the modern philosophy. I.e. not "not knowing about the existence of god" but "not knowing about the existence or nature".
    That's rich. Talking about knowability and not wanting to share your knowledge and so hiding it from critique. That is against science.
    But I won't hold that against you. I applaud your position, in part as it has also been known as agnosticism in the ancient world. But mainly because you can't draw any conclusions from it.
    Because I asked. Look into the archive. There must be several OPs about the nature of god. I did several on the old platform I was on. I had many RL discussions.
    And here we are again. I said you don't understand the Agnostic position and this is another example of that. And you have to tell me what I have to think in order to remain ignorant.
     
  2. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    You could say the same thing about Theists. What theist exists who doesn't have a 0.01% doubt that maybe they are just imagining it, and there is nothing there.
     
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  3. Windwalker

    Windwalker Integralist
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    I have no problem with that language at all. In fact, I believe I used it either in my response to your or Evangelical Humanist, that the theological question is about the existence or nature of the divine or God. Nature is a fine word. The fact that God or that nature of the divine is what one has to look at in order to say, "I don't know about that".

    What is "that"? It's the concept of what God is. And that concept, is a theological perspective, or belief. It is the theological view of God that they are familiar with as defined by traditional Western Christianity, that they don't know about. And the atheist, disbelieves in. Right?

    I'm not hiding anything at all. Just ask me to share how I think about the divine. Happy to. But what on earth does any of that have to do with hiding from scientific critique? Which branch of the sciences are you planning to look at this through, exactly? I'm happy to look at it through that set of eyes too, if it has any value. But it's probably I like like asking me to scientifically critique the taste of an orange to me.

    I wouldn't describe myself as an agnostic. I very much believe in the reality of the divine. It's very much a part of how I relate to myself, others, and the world. But it's not a belief in some wholly separate "being", or entity outside our reality. It's much more 'here and now' in everything that is.

    Basically, I see everything as an expression of this 'all-encompassing (?)" for lack of any real word to describe this, that is the foundational essence of all reality, the "Ground of Being" as some have called it, and that all that is arises from this, and is this in form. That makes you and me expressions of that fundamental reality, in however mentally one could hope to conceive of that. To experience that, is really the only way to know the truth or reality of this. It is seeing what is there the whole time in all that is, but never seen previously. It is a perceptual shift that allows seeing what was already there. And if you want to see what's there, you have to shift that perceptual awareness, experientially. There is no doubt to its reality, to those who see it, just like there is no doubt I have feet attached the end of my legs.

    Now, I'm really not sure what you think science can poke a hole into with that, as everything that science examines, is that. :) It's just that that's not a "scientific" way to talk about it. That's something beyond science. It's the domain of the artist and poet and mystic. It's experiential, tasting the fabric of existence with the tongue. It's energy. It's life itself. It's existence itself.

    That to me, I call God, and all the rest are just a refraction of that light hitting our mental, conceptual realities inside our thought worlds. Hence why I said before, it's the filters you see through that gives you your understanding of what God is. It's not something that is apprehended, through experience. It's conceptual in nature for most, and trying to see God looking through the conceptual frameworks of the mind, is like tying to see the eye you are looking out of with itself.

    Without a mirror held to your face, you cannot see the eye you are looking out of. You cannot see that God is a concept to you, because you are using a concept to see with. Once you open to seeing without that, then truth can enter in. This is true of anything in life. We aren't seeing reality. We are seeing our ideas of reality.

    I have talked with quite a few folks on this forum who share my views, and that is reflective of the larger reality of various schools of thought on this in the world. Once you enter into Eastern thought, you'll find quite of a lot of overlap and agreement with how I believe and they do. So, that they may not all respond to your threads asking about it, or maybe I'm the only one who has, doesn't change that reality. There are a lot of people who believe as I do, basically.

    I know what agnosticism is. You look at what is told you what God is, and you don't see a reason to believe it. Or any number of variants upon that theme. Agnosticism, in all it's shades, is still aware of what God means conceptually. Otherwise, why in the hell call yourself agnostic? That's about God specifically.
     
  4. night912

    night912 Well-Known Member

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    Good, now that you understand how percentage work. If someone doesn't believe in god 100%, that means they don't believe in god. So someone who doesn't believe in god is an atheist, therefore, atheists exist.
     
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  5. Quintessence

    Quintessence Tale Weaver
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    What happens when you don't believe in a particular god, but worship it? What is that person?
     
  6. night912

    night912 Well-Known Member

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    Not an atheist.
     
  7. Windwalker

    Windwalker Integralist
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    Ooh, a trick question? A Christian? :)
     
  8. Quintessence

    Quintessence Tale Weaver
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    It's not intended as a trick question as much as it is intended to remind folks that the question "do you believe in X" is often not the relevant question. In polytheistic religions in particular, the relevance of "believing in" the gods is nothing compared to actually paying them due respects with your behavior. This is a perspective that is typically lost in the course of discussion about religion in the West as most dialogues center around the Protestant Christian idea that emphasizes faith and belief as central to religion and especially theistic religion.

    In any case, I find the dichotomy of atheist-theist to be almost entirely useless outside of very specific contexts. When gods can literally be anything - and when "belief in" said gods isn't even the relevant factor when we get right down to it - the descriptors "atheist" and "theist" are just not that useful in actually getting at what people do and value in their lives. Both atheists and theists might as well not exist for how useless the terms are.
     
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  9. Link

    Link Well-Known Member

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    This is because Abrahamic faiths such as Judaism, Islam, and Christianity, have proofs from God in form of scripture to the guides they rely on, while those who choose their own gods and who to worship, have no proof from their Lord.

    To us, faith is important, because proofs from God are meant to be relied upon and accepted.
     
  10. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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    Now that is an awful lot of mental gymnastics just to contradict yourself.

    You really need to make up your mind as.
    Are strong atheists atheists or not?


    Yes, because when someone says "until Christians..." they really mean "until all theists..."
    You really should work on your reading comprehension skills.

    No I haven't.
    That is YOUR strawman.

    Unless of course you can show how "until Christians..." actually means "until all theists..."

    Since I never said you did make any such claim one wonders why you feel the need to state that you haven't...?

    That may have been what you meant to say, but it is not what you said and I never once made any claim that strong atheists are not atheists.
     
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  11. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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    Wow.
    just...
    wow.

    Noun. willful ignorance (uncountable) (idiomatic, law) A decision in bad faith to avoid becoming informed about something so as to avoid having to make undesirable decisions that such information might prompt. Synonyms: vincible ignorance, willful blindness.​


    wow.
    just...
    wow.
     
  12. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member

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    Yes, someone can affirm, someone can believe with 100% certainty that no gods exist. I think they'd be wrong in that certainty but your question is about a belief position and that belief position can definitely exist. Some people affirm with 100% certainly that a God does exist and I think they're wrong too. :cool:

    Regardless, that still isn't the only common usage of the word atheist but the argument and personal attacks it often generates means it's usually more trouble than it's worth to use, as your thread has proven. If you want to discuss particular belief philosophies and concepts, just describe what you're talking about. Labels are generally only of use for negative stereotypes and very much hope that isn't what you're here for.
     
  13. night912

    night912 Well-Known Member

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    Just a reminder, key word here is, "context," because just about anything can be useless if taken out of context.
     
  14. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...
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    What interests me most about this debate is why? Why do so many theists care about quibbling around various notions of atheism? Can they not be satisfied when somebody just says, "sorry, don't believe in God?"

    Remember the poor fellow out on the town in Belfast, being asked whether he was Protestant or Catholic (so they could know whether to beat him up) replying -- "no lads, I'm an atheist." Ah, says one of the hoodlums, but is it the Catholic god or the Protestant god you don't believe in?"
     
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  15. Bob the Unbeliever

    Bob the Unbeliever Well-Known Member

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    No, it's not-- evolution deniers are willfully ignorant, for example. There is ample evidence proving evolution not only happened, but the theory is the best explanation so far.

    Yet, they stick proverbial fingers into virtual ears, and cry "isnotisnotisnot" which is being willfully ignorant.
     
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  16. dianaiad

    dianaiad Well-Known Member

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    Y'know, I've heard the 'don't confuse me with facts' quote being used by people making fun of their opponents, but I've NEVER heard anything like it said of THEMSELVES by either side of this particular debate. Would you mind, if you put something in quotes. let me know whether you are actually quoting someone, .....or doing your own paraphrase of something you think the other guy REALLY means, but didn't actually say?
     
  17. dianaiad

    dianaiad Well-Known Member

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    They are. I'm not the one arguing that they aren't. I think that's you.



    Seriously?

    You are equatiing the set 'Christian' with the set "Theist?" no wonder you are confused.


    Is it? Tell me. are Strong Atheists atheists or not?

    That was your fallacy, Not mine.
     
  18. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member

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    How did you determine an infant believes in all this stuff?
     
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  19. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    Good for you. Why?
     
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  20. Heyo

    Heyo Well-Known Member

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    There are rules for quoting. If it's a true quote, I put the author behind the quote or something like "X said" before. If there is no speaker indicated, it is an imaginary dialogue.
     
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