Ask Zardoz Anything...

[Zardoz]

Day by day, the more I listen to main-stream Christianity and really pay attention to what they are actually saying, and compare that to the Torah and Tanakh, the clearer it becomes how blind I was to the facts. I just bought all as it that was fed to me over the years, I never truly checked it out for myself. Their stuff astounds me, they have to jump through hoops to make it work.They contradict themselves and then say it isn't so. This is from only little over a year of study. I can't imagine what I will realize after more time with this. I just wanted to say that somewhere. lol

^QFT

I became a Messianic Jew with quite the opposite process than how they operate, as you now see for yourself. I looked at the world, and the history of my People up until this time, and searched the principles of my faith and came to the inescapable conclusion that only the rather obscure prophecy of Messiah ben Yosef matched the truth I saw in the real world. That of course led me to Yeshua, but not the Yeshua of Rome and Paul, but his actual words and teachings.

So I am now a modern Ebionite, poor in spirit and humbled by the impossible task of presenting what I see to a world that has already decided what is true. If only with new eyes they could see.

However, I fear the so-called Messianic movement is stillborn, poisoned to death by the taint of idolatry. The seed will never grow.

 

[Shermana]

However, I fear the so-called Messianic movement is stillborn, poisoned to death by the taint of idolatry. The seed will never grow.

Perhaps, but only because it is the child of an adulterous relationship with idolatrous Antinomians.

The Neo-Ebionite and Nazarene restoration still may have fertile soil, the planting will be VERY difficult and require great skill, discipline, hard work, scholarship, and ability to effectively debate the idolators, but the fruits will be great. It can be done, just not very easily. Perhaps the best way to go about it is reforming the "Messianic" movement, but they can be as stubborn and stuck in gentile tradition as anyone else.

 

[SimoneQuinn]

^QFT


However, I fear the so-called Messianic movement is stillborn, poisoned to death by the taint of idolatry. The seed will never grow.

Perhaps, but only because it is the child of an adulterous relationship with idolatrous Antinomians.

The Neo-Ebionite and Nazarene restoration still may have fertile soil, the planting will be VERY difficult and require great skill, discipline, hard work, scholarship, and ability to effectively debate the idolators, but the fruits will be great. It can be done, just not very easily. Perhaps the best way to go about it is reforming the "Messianic" movement, but they can be as stubborn and stuck in gentile tradition as anyone else.

Thank you Zardoz. Would you gentlemen have any interest in elaborating further on this above?


I have contacted the Reform shul that I spoke of, they asked about my situation and I gave them the overview of my story. The rabbi has responded that I am welcome. He wrote me an inspirational email, it felt wonderful to read. He spoke right out on his own of the possibility of dealing with an identity crisis, which I have already encountered all during the past year, and I think now I am just starting to get past. He was realistic but also optimistically encouraging that it can be done- concerning our household being mixed (with my husband being a non-practicing Baptist). I came away with a sense of awe and hope, in the fact that he already seemed to understand me.

 

[Zardoz]

Thank you Zardoz. Would you gentlemen have any interest in elaborating further on this above?

It's... complicated.

There is just us two who call this DIR ours. In the three years I've been on these forums, there has never been more than two members who identify themselves as such. Notice we both no longer use the exact label 'Messianic Jew'.

As a movement, a Jewish movement, it's an absolute failure. Every Jew we meet, all they can think of when they think of MJ is the J4J types who missionize vulnerable Jews.

And hate MJ therefore hate us without our even saying a word. What's the point, then?

I have contacted the Reform shul that I spoke of, they asked about my situation and I gave them the overview of my story. The rabbi has responded that I am welcome. He wrote me an inspirational email, it felt wonderful to read. He spoke right out on his own of the possibility of dealing with an identity crisis, which I have already encountered all during the past year, and I think now I am just starting to get past. He was realistic but also optimistically encouraging that it can be done- concerning our household being mixed (with my husband being a non-practicing Baptist). I came away with a sense of awe and hope, in the fact that he already seemed to understand me.

I'm so glad you have been blessed with such a warm response, he sounds like a loving Rabbi who understands

 

[SimoneQuinn]

Thank you Zardoz, I was so thankful and so needed such a response from the Rabbi.

I have been reading what I can find on this subject, and I think I am becoming informed. It looks like the Ebionite term could be a fairly accurate description of what I consider myself to be. Like you have mentioned Z, not completely, but it looks like the closest one I have found.
Just from the bit I know, I would agree, I cannot see the other group altering to fit the different views. I know I stand out in that crowd because of those differing parts of my belief.

 

[Zardoz]

Thank you Zardoz, I was so thankful and so needed such a response from the Rabbi.

I have been reading what I can find on this subject, and I think I am becoming informed. It looks like the Ebionite term could be a fairly accurate description of what I consider myself to be. Like you have mentioned Z, not completely, but it looks like the closest one I have found.
Just from the bit I know, I would agree, I cannot see the other group altering to fit the different views. I know I stand out in that crowd because of those differing parts of my belief.

Yes, I would recommend from sad, personal experience that it's MUCH better to be an Ebionite in a Reform community than to be an Ebionite in a 'MJ' or 'J4J' community. The Reform community might consider you a bit odd, but so long as the Rabbi understands where you are coming from, and shows you acceptance, the community will too.

By contrast, the so-called MJ community, hated me for my Ebioniite stance and the rich Evangelicals who held the purse-strings, made sure I was constantly made to feel like an outsider and unwanted. Such was the ill will I felt, that I resigned as an Elder and left the community. I will never go back.

 

[SageTree]

Shalom Zardos,

I've sure appreciated the conversation via PMs and really enjoyed the link you sent as well. I'm still plucking away at it.

• Could I ask, in your opinion, why aren't Ebionites aren't posting in the Jewish DIR? Is it that Ebionites are a kind Messianic Jew, so it's more appropriate to post in here?

• From what I've read so far, there is a lot of 'reactionary'-ism, in my opinion. Could you talk more on if you believe that to be true on not?

• Are any of the Gospel or Christian writings 'okay' with Ebionites? It seems like James got the thumbs up, so I'm curious.

Again... I've really enjoyed the encounter and in some talks with Levite, he said that I sounded like I ought to talk to you.... and I always was


Thanks man


Blessings,
SageTree

 

[SimoneQuinn]

Yes, I would recommend from sad, personal experience that it's MUCH better to be an Ebionite in a Reform community than to be an Ebionite in a 'MJ' or 'J4J' community. The Reform community might consider you a bit odd, but so long as the Rabbi understands where you are coming from, and shows you acceptance, the community will too.

By contrast, the so-called MJ community, hated me for my Ebioniite stance and the rich Evangelicals who held the purse-strings, made sure I was constantly made to feel like an outsider and unwanted. Such was the ill will I felt, that I resigned as an Elder and left the community. I will never go back.

I can understand what you are saying, and I am sorry to hear that, I imagine it was a devastating experience. I am continuing on with reading and listening to about everything I can get my hands on.
I wondered briefly about the same question as Sagetree...if perhaps I should be posting in the other section of the forum. I'm not exactly sure where I stand right now, although I am feeling much more stable and secure in it than I was just a few months ago. I feel I am really getting some solid footing under me now, which feels so good.

 

[Zardoz]

Shalom Zardos,

I've sure appreciated the conversation via PMs and really enjoyed the link you sent as well. I'm still plucking away at it.

Could I ask, in your opinion, why aren't Ebionites aren't posting in the Jewish DIR? Is it that Ebionites are a kind Messianic Jew, so it's more appropriate to post in here?

I can and do post in the Judaism DIR, but not about some things. Anything about Yeshua, no I won't post it there only here.

You must understand just how rare an Ebionite is. An Ebionite is a minority within a minority within a minority. Of course, we have to fit ourselves in around existing classifications.

From what I've read so far, there is a lot of 'reactionary'-ism, in my opinion. Could you talk more on if you believe that to be true on not?

Yes, we do tend to define ourselves by what we are not rather than by what we are. The division between Jew and Christian is wide, if one takes a middle ground, like any flavor of MJ, one seems like an outsider in some regards, to both.

Are any of the Gospel or Christian writings 'okay' with Ebionites? It seems like James got the thumbs up, so I'm curious.Again... I've really enjoyed the encounter and in some talks with Levite, he said that I sounded like I ought to talk to you.... and I always was

No book of the NT is taken at face value whole. Of course they are the only source for teachings of Yeshua, but these must be mined like gems from a mountain of rocks. The winners always write the history books, those on the losing side may recognize some facts and events recorded as being true, but also think a lot is fabrication.

Levite knows my position quite well, and while he may disagree he understands that much of my beliefs are rooted in viewpoints that can be found in Jewish beliefs which are not from MJ origins.

Shalom

 

[SageTree]

All loud and clear Zardos.

I particularly understand what you mean about the victors and the NT...

It's one reason I've engaged the topic recently as I've been seeing a lot of my Self in Judaic understanding/philosophy, and at the same time, seeking to find a group that understands Yeshua and the Jewishness that is seemingly over looked or brushed aside.

Also, I think it's unfair how the Hebrew Bible has been appropriated from the Jewish community.

:namaste
SageTree

 

[SimoneQuinn]

Hello group, I am still around, reading posts as they come up. I feel I am still progressing, still moving, and I know I am moving even further away from ties with Christianity. A friend mentioned that just 'grazing' the edges of Judaism in real study with an open mind would just open the floodgate, and he is so right. All the other feels like a House of Cards that just started toppling once I really looked at things. I know I am on the verge of leaving behind all notion of Y'eshua being diety. Nearly there now. I've worked not to rush things and let understanding come as it may.
I have another question, I mentioned about my family bloodline which is part Levite on my mother's side of the family, and that the only place I have available is a Reform Synagogue (they have been wonderful to me) and it is approx. 30 miles away. Do you feel, living in this country (good ole USA) that I need to formally convert in any way? Being that I am such a distance from any community to speak of and my family is either non-practicing or some Christian. I have no plans to relocate to Israel, that would be incredible, but we will never leave here. Would there be any purpose in me formally converting? Or is it that my turning and cleaving to HaShem, and working to walk in His ways, sufficient?


Also, would I be accepted posting in the Judaism section?

 

[Bob Dixon]

Ever read the Gospel of Thomas?
If you have, what do you think of it?

 

[Zardoz]

Hello group, I am still around, reading posts as they come up. I feel I am still progressing, still moving, and I know I am moving even further away from ties with Christianity. A friend mentioned that just 'grazing' the edges of Judaism in real study with an open mind would just open the floodgate, and he is so right. All the other feels like a House of Cards that just started toppling once I really looked at things. I know I am on the verge of leaving behind all notion of Y'eshua being diety. Nearly there now. I've worked not to rush things and let understanding come as it may.
I have another question, I mentioned about my family bloodline which is part Levite on my mother's side of the family, and that the only place I have available is a Reform Synagogue (they have been wonderful to me) and it is approx. 30 miles away. Do you feel, living in this country (good ole USA) that I need to formally convert in any way? Being that I am such a distance from any community to speak of and my family is either non-practicing or some Christian. I have no plans to relocate to Israel, that would be incredible, but we will never leave here. Would there be any purpose in me formally converting? Or is it that my turning and cleaving to HaShem, and working to walk in His ways, sufficient?

As an Orthodox Jew, I'd say that the process of conversion could be a beautiful experience, and have deep meaning in your life. However, this is a decision that only you can make, and it need not be rushed. You may find you have a Jewish soul in any case, or you may find you need a formal declaration.

As a Reform Jew, I'd say that conversion is for those who have no Jewish roots, and you clearly do have some. You should simply begin to walk the walk and talk the talk. In other words, self-identify as a Jew. Be a Jew. Go to Shul. Celebrate the holidays and observe the mitzvot. Be Jew, and you will find out if you are.

As a Ebionite Jew I say, read the Sermon on the Mount. It's all there. Yeshua asks the question; 'where is your heart?' Kevanah (Intent) is everything. Acquire a heart of flesh and toss out the useless heart of stone that we get from the world.

Also, would I be accepted posting in the Judaism section?

To do so, you would have to wear the label:

Religion: Judaism

And of course, not discuss Yeshua. or Messiah there, only here.

Ever read the Gospel of Thomas?
If you have, what do you think of it?

I have to assume you're asking SimoneQuinn since you already asked me in the Grafting thread. But just in case, no I have not had time yet.

 

[flame93]

I'm not MJ, but I'm intrested If you are using Qabalah and in which form?

 

[Bob Dixon]

I have to assume you're asking SimoneQuinn since you already asked me in the Grafting thread. But just in case, no I have not had time yet.

No, I was asking you again, in hopes that you'd've had time!

 

[SimoneQuinn]

Thank you Zardoz, I always look forward to reading your replies, they are always a comfort and a help to me. I will elaborate just a little more on my story to give some backdrop. About a year and a half ago, after finding paperwork about our family genelology in our grandmother's house, life went on sort of as usual. Then, out of the blue, I had somewhat of a mystical experience in a bookstore (sounds corny, but it was), I felt like I was told to buy a certain book I passed in this bookstore. I walked on by after feeling it the first time, and as I went out and passed the book again, I felt it again. I reached back and grabbed it. LOL Anyway, I took the book home and felt like I should immediately read it, the urge was intense. It was written by an American Jew who traveled to the Holy Lands. I knew literally nothing about what I was at this point. Things felt like they almost started jumping off the page at me. I wondered what in the world was happening.

It was summer and I began thinking about things like Rosh HaShanah. Crazy, but I didn't even know what that day was about, not a clue. Why was I thinking about this? I kept feeling like I was supposed to learn. So I started to read what I could find on the net. I felt like I had to do it. Fall arrived and that day came and in the morning I was still wavering. What was I doing? Why was I doing this? I just did it. I baked my very first challah that day. LOL I like to call it a wing and a prayer, I had no idea what I was doing, but my kids and I observed. It was incredible. For days and days afterward I felt like I was literally walking on air. I could not stop singing praises.
Then came Yom Kippur, and then we did our best to observe Sukkot, again winging it all the way. I felt incredibly blessed.
Then December came and we decided to try our first Hanukkah. It was wonderful and felt like just what we were supposed to be doing. About the same time as Rosh HaShanah, I kept feeling the calling to observe shabbat. I didnt' know what I was doing with that any more so than all the other. Some of my HR friends gave me pointers and I went for it. I have been enjoying a blessed shabbat ever since, for about 8 months or so, now. We just had our first Pesach, winging it again. Incredible.
But the thing that has made me feel the most centered in my heart, if that is how to explain it, is letting go of all that other bit by bit. Like I had to clear out the junk and make some space to put the new, right, good stuff.

I am working to study Torah, and trying to walk in His ways, I have so much to learn but the journey so far has been out of this world. The very first time I heard a Rabbi speak I literally sat bolt upright and said in my mind- 'what was that!!'. Some of the things he said just went through me like a lightning bolt, I am not kidding. Like I was hearing the truth for the first time and I could see something that I knew had been there, but couldn't see it before. That happened to me quite a few times LOL, as I began listening to Rabbis on a regular basis. Their words just went through me like truth that I had been denied all my life. Several times I just sat and cried.

Thank you so much for your advice, just what I needed to know, thank you. The Reform shul is the only place within about 70 miles I would say. I am in the sticks. I also feel that is just what I should do, wait to see what happens. I think I am Orthodox in my heart. I will see how He leads me.

Shalom friends and thank you for your help.

 

[Zardoz]

Shalom,

(I will post as much as I can, I don't post on Shabbat so it may be a while before I post again)

So much of your post reminds me of my Rebbi, and what he told us. Indeed your reaction to hearing Torah is a sign that you are called to it. My Rebbi told us this secret, that if you hear words of Torah for the first time and especially the words of Rashi and the hairs of the back of your neck stand upright (a similar reaction as you describe) then your soul is attuned to Torah for truly every soul that ever was to be a Jew was there at Sinai as the Torah says:

"I am making this covenant both with you who stand here today in the presence of the Lord our G-d, and also with the future generations who are not standing here today." (Kabbalah tells us all the Jewish souls were there, all were created at that instant and brought there to witness!)

Your encounter with the book reminds me of my own encounter with a book, as I was not raised in a very observant home. ('twice-a-year' kind of observance applies to many households both Christian and Jew)

My book was a book by Gershom Sholem on the Kabbalah.

As to the type of shul, I live in the sticks as well, and I would not have bought the house I did if it was not within an easy walk of a Shul and it didn't matter to me that it was Reform. Jews are Jews and if you feel at home there then it's for you, it's your community and if you wish to be more observant at home (like I do) then by all means do so. But do as I do and don't get into the whole 'Reform Vs. Orthodox' mishigas just love your fellow Jew and your community that you find yourself in. Makes sense, Nu?

 

[Zardoz]

I'm not MJ, but I'm intrested If you are using Qabalah and in which form?

Yes, as you see above Kabbalah is part of my faith on a daily basis. The term 'using' is a interesting point, I know that some 'use' Kabbalah in rituals and such, but for me it's a wealth of knowledge that enhances every aspect of my faith, we don't 'use' it alone. Of course, I follow Jewish Kabbalah.

 

[flame93]

Yes, as you see above Kabbalah is part of my faith on a daily basis. The term 'using' is a interesting point, I know that some 'use' Kabbalah in rituals and such, but for me it's a wealth of knowledge that enhances every aspect of my faith, we don't 'use' it alone. Of course, I follow Jewish Kabbalah.

Thank you, yes It is very interesting because western esoterics are using Qabalah as a tool in a form of tree of life, more like a classification tool (hope this is not offending your faith). Do you also use graphical representation of Qabalah through tree of life?

 

[SimoneQuinn]

Shalom,

(I will post as much as I can, I don't post on Shabbat so it may be a while before I post again)

So much of your post reminds me of my Rebbi, and what he told us. Indeed your reaction to hearing Torah is a sign that you are called to it. My Rebbi told us this secret, that if you hear words of Torah for the first time and especially the words of Rashi and the hairs of the back of your neck stand upright (a similar reaction as you describe) then your soul is attuned to Torah for truly every soul that ever was to be a Jew was there at Sinai as the Torah says:

"I am making this covenant both with you who stand here today in the presence of the Lord our G-d, and also with the future generations who are not standing here today." (Kabbalah tells us all the Jewish souls were there, all were created at that instant and brought there to witness!)

Your encounter with the book reminds me of my own encounter with a book, as I was not raised in a very observant home. ('twice-a-year' kind of observance applies to many households both Christian and Jew)

My book was a book by Gershom Sholem on the Kabbalah.

As to the type of shul, I live in the sticks as well, and I would not have bought the house I did if it was not within an easy walk of a Shul and it didn't matter to me that it was Reform. Jews are Jews and if you feel at home there then it's for you, it's your community and if you wish to be more observant at home (like I do) then by all means do so. But do as I do and don't get into the whole 'Reform Vs. Orthodox' mishigas just love your fellow Jew and your community that you find yourself in. Makes sense, Nu?

Thank you Zardoz for your fantastic advice all. Makes perfect sense, wonderful!

I will check out that book, also. Do you have any recommendations for study online- Torah & Kabbalah?

It is so nice to have people understand what I am talking about.