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Ask Zardoz Anything...
- Thread starter Zardoz
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Exactly the most important issue facing Messianics today. One does not need to deify Yeshua to be his disciple. Follow his most important teachings, as found most purely in the Sermon on the Mount, and follow his example, even unto death as he did. He points the way, the path of this age. We must be first and foremost Jews and follow Torah which absolutely forbids the worship of Yeshua as any god as the trinitarian theology implies. Yet, at the same time, understand that same trinitarian theology is a permitted path for non-Jews. It's complex, and puts us in an awkward position to defend our beliefs yet refute the charges of idolatry yet again not damage the faith of others who are blessed by the beliefs they hold most dear. I shudder at the thought that, at the final judgment, I should be accused of causing the falling away of any of G-d's children from faith.
Yes, just click my sig, it's a link to the wikki.
Not always. The most accurate label for what you describe is 'Hebrew Christian' even though they also will use the term Messianic Jew sometimes.
I can't speak for every Messianic Jew, please check out Green Gaia's excellent Overview and you will see there are many forms of Messianic Jews, just as there are many denominations of Christianity and branches of Judaism.
For myself:
I am no type or flavor of Christian. I identify with Judaism first and foremost.
I do not believe in the trinity or any other incarnationist doctrine.
I believe Yeshua is one of many messianic individuals, and will not be the last one.
Hope that helps, I've said as much before but it's spread all over this forum.
Unfortunately, there is no other 'label' that describes me. To me it's an ongoing task to educate my fellow Jews that we MJ are not all J4J or some other Christian clones.
I came to my beliefs within the framework of Judaism, with very little outside or Christian influence. My roots are all Jewish, and I approach the one bit of Christianity that I claim as my own, from a Jewish perspective. The 'Sermon on the Mount' is all I need or want of the so-called NT.
So, I'm fairly sure the Shema means the same to me as any other Jew. Plus, I await the same Davidic Messiah. I just have a slightly different understanding of the current situation.
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Breathe
Hostis humani generis
(Since non-Messianics have asked questions, I shall too!)
What is your opinion on those gentiles who act like Messianic Jews (or Messianic Gentiles? lol) yet are not of Jewish origin themselves?
I heard someone once say you have to be born of Jewish roots (and another say, of the Jewish faith prior) to be a 'true MJ', but I'm not sure if the person I was talking to was correct; what is your opinion on this whole thing?
And do you think you can explain the difference between the Davidic Messiah, and the role that Jesus performed in your eyes, if he was a messiah - if so, how?
What is your opinion on those gentiles who act like Messianic Jews (or Messianic Gentiles? lol) yet are not of Jewish origin themselves?
I heard someone once say you have to be born of Jewish roots (and another say, of the Jewish faith prior) to be a 'true MJ', but I'm not sure if the person I was talking to was correct; what is your opinion on this whole thing?
And do you think you can explain the difference between the Davidic Messiah, and the role that Jesus performed in your eyes, if he was a messiah - if so, how?
I rather agree with this for the most part. I have always thought it appropriate to give credit where credit is due so frubals to you.
You're welcome to ask questions. I hope I can provide understandable answers.
More power to them! So long as they don't claim to be actually Jewish (unless they had a conversion) then I welcome their quest to discover the roots of their faith.
To really understand the whole picture, it is true one needs a complete and full understanding of Judaism. However, being born a Jew does not automatically make that so. I have seen many Gerim (converts to Judaism) who are extremely knowledgeable. If they pursue the understanding of Yeshua's teaching, I am confident they will understand as much as a born Jew.
And do you think you can explain the difference between the Davidic Messiah, and the role that Jesus performed in your eyes, if he was a messiah - if so, how?
As my Rebbi used to say, and it took me a long time to understand what he meant:
"Before Messiah ben David, there is Messiah ben Yosef"
Messiah ben Yosef is the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53. Yeshua is a Messiah ben Yosef, in simple meaning of this, and there will be another Messiah ben Yosef. (I am leaving it open in my mind as to if he will be both, I don't know!)
Messiah ben David is the Messiah who brings the final peace, where all the nations beat their swords into plowshares, and learn war no more. May he come soon!
Some helpful Wiki links:
Isaiah 53 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Messiah ben Joseph - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jewish messianism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Wannabe Yogi
Well-Known Member
Were did I leave my keys ?
Welcome!
Which Messiah is the real question! Obviously Yeshua is not the Davidic Messiah with the prophecies you allude to fulfilled. Scroll up to my post #12 in this thread and you will see my short version. I've discussed this in depth in other threads on the forum, if you're curious I can link them for you.
However, one caveat, please keep in mind that my opinions are not universal among MJ and quite likely in the minority, but not really all that small a minority (but a rather silent one).
Evee
Member
I read the article about the Messiah ben Joseph, but I have to admit, I was surprised. Never have I come across the idea of more than one messiah and the book cited is not one I know. (This isn't surprising. My Jewish education is VERY spotty.) I'd be very interested to read your other posts, if you'd link me.
One more, if you don't mind.
Do you think Yeshua is the son of G-d? If so (I can't think of a tactful way to put this), HOW? If not, then why does the Christian Bible make him out to be?
Oh, I thought of another one.
What DO you think of the Gospels? Are they the inspired work of G-d? Do they hold truth at all?
Of course, I presume you are speaking for yourself alone, not for all messianic Jews. Two Jews, three opinions, right?
EV
One more, if you don't mind.
Do you think Yeshua is the son of G-d? If so (I can't think of a tactful way to put this), HOW? If not, then why does the Christian Bible make him out to be?
Oh, I thought of another one.
What DO you think of the Gospels? Are they the inspired work of G-d? Do they hold truth at all?
Of course, I presume you are speaking for yourself alone, not for all messianic Jews. Two Jews, three opinions, right?
EV
Well, on RF you will learn a lot, there's many knowledgeable people here. On Jewish/Christian topics, a good source is Ben Masada. I've participated in many of his threads, I guess this would be one of the longer ones:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/scriptural-debates/79855-replacement-theology.html
No, I do not. However, I feel that the Romans (Edom, Esau) needed him to be thus, and so G-d gave this faith to them, so that they'd have a path to G-d after the Temple would fall. This is the concept of the intermediary. It's involved, but I can elaborate if you need more info on this.
Parts are inspired. The Sermon on the Mount... for sure. The rest... some maybe, some not at all.
Absolutely....