Ask About Islam - an independent perspective.

[Audie]

As the last couple of AAI threads seemed to be just intended for preaching dogma with no attempt at actually informing, discussing or responding to questions in good faith, I thought I'd start one where there will be no agenda other than to present what the Quran, sunnah and classical tafsir actually say on an issue. No sectarianism. No opinions (apart from those of authoritative classical scholars). Just the 'facts', ma'am.

And I promise not to accuse anyone of hate or bashing or ignorance if they don't agree with my replies. And I won't put anyone on ignore if I can't come up with an answer.

Good change

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Good change

Yeah, good to you. I find it pointless in practice unless for the off chance that an actual Muslim in doubt comes around and learns something. But as most of us are set in our ways, it is just one subjective angle some something which is subjective in the end. And that is not unique to religion.
But yeah, it is good in some subjective sense.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

You seem to misunderstand. I have noticed that Muslims of different sects seem overly concerned with showing that other sects are "Not True Muslims". I don't get involved with that. I maintain that if someone sincerely takes the shahada and follows the five pillars to the best of their ability, they are a Muslim, whichever sect they happen to follow. Do you disagree?

Then why according to the Hadith the majority of people of Muhammad (ummah) are not entering heaven?
Remember, you said, you go with Ibni khatir, because the majority go with him. I just quoted a Hadith that says, the majority of Ummah are not entertaining heaven.
No I disagree, being a Muslim is not as simple as just saying a Shahada.
I brought this up, to point that, the problem with Ummah has been, their following scholars and leaders blindly, just as the Christians and Jews did, according to the Quran and Hadith.
And the fact that, usually the Sunnis don't even look at Shia Hadithes, and vice versa, means in practice they are following their own sect. So, even if one calls himself just a Muslim, their very action shows they are fanatical towards their own sect.

 

[Link]

Then why according to the Hadith the majority of people of Muhammad (ummah) are not entering heaven?
Remember, you said, you go with Ibni khatir, because the majority go with him. I just quoted a Hadith that says, the majority of Ummah are not entertaining heaven.
No I disagree, being a Muslim is not as simple as just saying a Shahada.
I brought this up, to point that, the problem with Ummah has been, their following scholars and leaders blindly, just as the Christians and Jews did, according to the Quran and Hadith.

Much of the Quran is about this, but he's too "scholarly" to know this.

 

[viole]

And I promise not to accuse anyone of hate or bashing or ignorance if they don't agree with my replies. And I won't put anyone on ignore if I can't come up with an answer.

Well, I sort of understand them when they hide behind it. What else have they got?

ciao

- viole

 

[KWED]

Then why according to the Hadith the majority of people of Muhammad (ummah) are not entering heaven?

No idea. Seems a bit unfair, don't you think? Which is why I don't take it on myself to play god and assume which Muslims are "true" and which are going to hell.

No I disagree, being a Muslim is not as simple as just saying a Shahada.

I said "Sincerely saying the shahada and following the five pillars to the best of their abilities". Why did you miss out that essential element of my post?

I brought this up, to point that, the problem with Ummah has been, their following scholars and leaders blindly, just as the Christians and Jews did, according to the Quran and Hadith.
And the fact that, usually the Sunnis don't even look at Shia Hadithes, and vice versa, means in practice they are following their own sect. So, even if one calls himself just a Muslim, their very action shows they are fanatical towards their own sect.

I agree that Islam is rife with sectarianism and many Muslims seem overly concerned with denouncing other Muslims as "Not Muslims".

 

[KWED]

Much of the Quran is about this, but he's too "scholarly" to know this.

So you know which Muslims are "True" and which are going to hell? Cool. Do tell...
Personally, I avoid judgemental sectarianism. It can lead to no good.

 

[Link]

So you know which Muslims are "True" and which are going to hell? Cool. Do tell...
Personally, I avoid judgemental sectarianism. It can lead to no good.

I am talking about avoiding scholars as authorities. But to answer your question. Quran has one thing and one thing it asks us. To be sincere in our Worship of God. Any humans is, will enter paradise. Any human is not, will enter fire.

What is meant by sincere, is simply not worshiping others. However, Quran says Christians and Jews worshiped their scholars. What does it mean by this. Sunni and Shiite hadiths agree, that it was their scholars made halal haram and vice versa and people knew this, but yet followed them.

This is the state of majority Sunni and Shiites, they worship scholars and love them more then God. They attribute God falsehood for the sake of their idols among humans.

And idols in form of gods whether Jesus or other gods of the past, per Quran, usually were taken as a means of love among themselves (about social cohesion) and really was about loving their leaders.

Jinn worshipers are somewhat like that too, it's all about following their passions and lust, and they use Jinn who they call Angels or daughters/sons of God or gods, to justify following their ignorant ways.

Jinn worshipers can simply say we call them gods, but deem creator way higher and so it becomes semantic issue.

But Quran shows even if with these semantics (we only worship them to worship God and get closer to him), the fact remains, when you follow leaders or guides or seek enlightenment from who has no proof. Then your intention is not to know God or the truth or go towards light.

Your intention is to justify running away from him and lying to yourself.

"Muslim" and "Shahada" can't do away with this.

God says to not attribute him what we don't know. We fallen into same traps as lead astray nations of the past.

The solution is always same. Be sincere in worship of God and rely on his rope (recitation from him in form of scripture + guides he appoints).

 

[KWED]

Quran has one thing and one thing it asks us. To be sincere in our Worship of God. Any humans is, will enter paradise. Any human is not, will enter fire.

So if every "Muslim" is sincere in their worship? (I assume most if not all are), according to you they must all go to Jannah. Yet Allah says that most of the ummah will not. So, either you are wrong or Allah is wrong (or possibly both).

 

[Link]

So if every "Muslim" is sincere in their worship? (I assume most if not all are), according to you they must all go to Jannah. Yet Allah says that most of the ummah will not. So, either you are wrong or Allah is wrong (or possibly both).

Anyone who worships God without partners or just fears and respects his position, will enter paradise. Of course, it's a sign we aren't doing that (worshiping God without partners) when we rejected Messengers (Ahlulbayt) and follow scholars who lead us astray.

That's a sign we love our leaders we picked more then God and a sign of worshiping God sincerely is to rely on his rope and nothing else.

And if we fear God, we won't rely on those who lead astray but rather on his proofs.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

So if every "Muslim" is sincere in their worship? (I assume most if not all are), according to you they must all go to Jannah. Yet Allah says that most of the ummah will not. So, either you are wrong or Allah is wrong (or possibly both).

Are those wrongs absolute or relative? And are they related to some kind of truth?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

No idea. Seems a bit unfair, don't you think? Which is why I don't take it on myself to play god and assume which Muslims are "true" and which are going to hell.

I said "Sincerely saying the shahada and following the five pillars to the best of their abilities". Why did you miss out that essential element of my post?

I agree that Islam is rife with sectarianism and many Muslims seem overly concerned with denouncing other Muslims as "Not Muslims".

This idea that if someone only do the five pillars is over simplification of Islam.
The Quran has far more teachings to be followed.
If one follows the 5 pillars and still be a follower of a sect, according to Quran, he is committing Shirk:



"Turn ye back in repentance to Him, and fear Him: establish regular prayers, and be not ye among those who join gods with Allah, Those who split up their Religion, and become (mere) Sects,- each party rejoicing in that which is with itself" 3:32-33

As for those who divide their religion and break up into sects, thou hast no part in them in the least: their affair is with Allah: He will in the end tell them the truth of all that they did" 6:159

Now, in practice, most of the Muslims, are dividing themselves. The Sunnis separate themselves from Shia, and like wise Shia separate from Sunni. It is not as simple as claiming "I am just a Muslim". Some came up with another sect called Quranism, which is just another separation.


Or for example according to Quran, we are not supposed to differentiate between God and His Messengers, or we will be considered as disbelievers:

"Truly those who disbelieve in God and His messengers, and seek to make a distinction between God and His messengers, and say, “We believe in some and disbelieve in others,” and seek to take a way between they are indeed the true disbelievers. And We have prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating punishment"4:150-151

Almost all Muslims differentiate between God and His messengers.
These teachings of Quran are forgotten, and most Muslims think they are supposed to differentiate between God and Messengers, whereas originally Quran taught otherwise.


So, No, it is not unfair that Muhammad said majority of Muslims will not end up in heaven. It just seems, Muslims made a new religion that ignores many important things in Quran, and simply focuses on the 5 pillars, which are easy to do. Anyone can say the Salah. Most people can fast. But these are the sufficient essential things. These are outward acts. What is important is within.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

So you know which Muslims are "True" and which are going to hell? Cool. Do tell...
Personally, I avoid judgemental sectarianism. It can lead to no good.

The Hadith is clear. The ones who are not part of any sect. It means someone who knows the truth is in all sects. Each sect has a portion of knowledge and truth. So, it is like dividing a picture into pieces. Only when you can put all pieces together you see the whole picture. So, if one is able to find the portion of truth in each sect, and puts them together, in a united way, will be able to see the truth. But, most Muslims, if you tell them a correct info which is found in another sect, they automatically reject it, simply because it is not from their own sect. This fanaticism is a main problem, which in addition to following scholars blindly, adds more problems, as seen today.
Moreover, according to verse of Quran and many Hadithes, Ummah have a lifespan, which is 1000 years, and when this end comes, the truth is vanished from the ummah and leaders are all false leaders. This time is already passed. Some Muslims interpreted that lifespan is 1500 years. I believe This is false, because that's not what Quran says, but even if it was 1500 years, already about 1450 years passed. Obviously the diviation from truth does not happen overnight. It has been a gradual process, which most of it passed.

 

[Link]

The Hadith is clear. The ones who are not part of any sect. It means someone who knows the truth is in all sects. Each sect has a portion of knowledge and truth. So, it is like dividing a picture into pieces. Only when you can put all pieces together you see the whole picture. So, if one is able to find the portion of truth in each sect, and puts them together, in a united way, will be able to see the truth. But, most Muslims, if you tell them a correct info which is found in another sect, they automatically reject it, simply because it is not from their own sect. This fanaticism is a main problem, which in addition to following scholars blindly, adds more problems, as seen today.
Moreover, according to verse of Quran and many Hadithes, Ummah have a lifespan, which is 1000 years, and when this end comes, the truth is vanished from the ummah and leaders are all false leaders. This time is already passed. Some Muslims interpreted that lifespan is 1500 years. I believe This is false, because that's not what Quran says, but even if it was 1500 years, already about 1450 years passed. Obviously the diviation from truth does not happen overnight. It has been a gradual process, which most of it passed.

The hadiths don't talk about what you call yourself sectarian wise, except that it does say Bani-Israel were also called Rafidis for rejecting Pharaoh and so we should take the title as a honor from our enemies. (Rawafid).

Sects not clinging to handhold of God are those who take the affair of God's chosen for themselves. They distribute God's Authority in his chosen among themselves (ie. scholars claiming position of representing Quran and Sunnah).

 

[KWED]

Anyone who worships God without partners or just fears and respects his position, will enter paradise. Of course, it's a sign we aren't doing that (worshiping God without partners) when we rejected Messengers (Ahlulbayt) and follow scholars who lead us astray.

That's a sign we love our leaders we picked more then God and a sign of worshiping God sincerely is to rely on his rope and nothing else.

And if we fear God, we won't rely on those who lead astray but rather on his proofs.

So every Muslim who is sincere in their worship will see paradise, regardless of which sect they follow.

 

[Link]

So every Muslim who is sincere in their worship will see paradise, regardless of which sect they follow.

Yes correct, it's the way to get to the right sect as well, so yes a Muslim or Jew or Christian or Hindu or human in general who becomes sincere to God will find the right sect/religion and enter paradise regardless of what sect/religion they started from.

This is God's words "so God guided those who believed from what they differed..." and said "whoever believes in God, God guides his heart...".

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Are you saying that only people who claim they are chosen by god can interpret the Quran?

anyone can interpret it, but only the ones who are given knowledge by God can and know its correct interpretation.
There are several Hadithes from Myhammad that He was very concerned with misinterpretation of Quran. He basically said, just as leaders of Jews and Christians interpreted the Books according to their own wishes and mislead people, this will happen in Islam as well.

The only sources of Islam are the Quran and sunnah. Everything else is interpretation of those two sources.

Yes. Exactly.

How do you suggest we "compare their knowledge and judge fairly"? By what independent method do we decide which it correct?

Very good question.
Short answer, interpretation must agree with the Quran.
It all comes from verse 3:7.
There are two kind of verses. One type is clear (Muhkamat). This is the foundation. It means, these clear verses are the standard that everything else must be compared with. These verse are easy to understand and does not need any interpretation.

The other type of verses, are unclear (Mutishabihat).
It is these verses that are difficult to understand. It is them that only God (and His chose ones know their interpretation).

So, we must recognize which verses are Mutishabihat and not follow them, as Quran says those whose heart have Fitna will follow them, and crave for interpretation.

How can we recognize the Mutishabihat is by comparing with Muhkamaat.
For example, God is the most kind, is a clear verse. No need for interpretation. This is a standard as an example.
Other verses says, God burns disbelievers in Hell. Now, when we compare this with the Standard which says God is the most kind, we see this contradicts. We say this verse that says God burns disbelievers is a Mutishabihat, and we must not follow it. Only God knows its interpretation and those who are Well-grounded in knowledge.

 

[KWED]

This idea that if someone only do the five pillars is over simplification of Islam.
The Quran has far more teachings to be followed.

Why do you insist on attacking straw men. I never claimed that Islam is "only following the 5 pillars".

If one follows the 5 pillars and still be a follower of a sect, according to Quran, he is committing Shirk:

Define "sect".
If they sincerely take the shahada and follow the 5 pillars, they are not committing shirk. The shahada avows only one god.

"Turn ye back in repentance to Him, and fear Him: establish regular prayers, and be not ye among those who join gods with Allah, Those who split up their Religion, and become (mere) Sects,- each party rejoicing in that which is with itself" 3:32-33

According to all the tafsir I have consulted, that is referring to those who have left Islam for a new belief in one way or another. It is not referring to Muslims who have differences over theological details.
Remember that to some other Muslims, you are in a "sect".

Almost all Muslims differentiate between God and His messengers.

In what way?

So, No, it is not unfair that Muhammad said majority of Muslims will not end up in heaven. It just seems, Muslims made a new religion that ignores many important things in Quran, and simply focuses on the 5 pillars, which are easy to do. Anyone can say the Salah. Most people can fast. But these are the sufficient essential things. These are outward acts. What is important is within.

So, which sect do you follow, and why is it the correct one?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The hadiths don't talk about what you call yourself sectarian wise, except that it does say Bani-Israel were also called Rafidis for rejecting Pharaoh and so we should take the title as a honor from our enemies. (Rawafid).

Sects not clinging to handhold of God are those who take the affair of God's chosen for themselves. They distribute God's Authority in his chosen among themselves (ie. scholars claiming position of representing Quran and Sunnah).

That too.
But if we read the idea of why dividing religion is forbidden in Quran, we see, it says, each sect is happy with their own portion. It means, portion of of truth or knowledge. Because for example Sunnis have many good Hadithes, Shia have many good Hadithes, and Suffi also. If we limit ourself to only a portion in a sect, we won't be knowing all. There are many Hadithes from Prophet that is in other sects, which are important in order to understand Islam and follow it correctly.

 

[Link]

That too.
But if we read the idea of why dividing religion is forbidden in Quran, we see, it says, each sect is happy with their own portion. It means, portion of of truth or knowledge. Because for example Sunnis have many good Hadithes, Shia have many good Hadithes, and Suffi also. If we limit ourself to only a portion in a sect, we won't be knowing all. There are many Hadithes from Prophet that is in other sects, which are important in order to understand Islam and follow it correctly.

The author of Behar Al-Anwar collected all Sunni hadiths he can too including ones that praise Abu Bakr and Umar. So Majlisi for example tried to collect hadiths from all sects and whatever he can retrieve. And then let people decide by their own means which is true.

Behar Al-Anwar has section that is about collection of hadiths that praise Abu Bakr and Umar though the author made it clear he does not believe in these hadiths.