Ask About Islam - an independent perspective.

[KWED]

anyone can interpret it, but only the ones who are given knowledge by God can and know its correct interpretation.

How do we know who has been given knowledge by god (apart from them claiming they have, or course)?

For example, God is the most kind, is a clear verse. No need for interpretation.

Not at all. "God is most kind" requires interpretation.
"Most" means "greatest in amount", "unable to be more of", then it means that god cannot be more kind than he is, and no one else could be more kind. He has the greatest amount of kindness possible. But god clearly could be more kind, in many ways. He could not torture disbelievers for eternity, for example. So either the Quran is wrong, or "most" doesn't mean what it usually means. Then there is the context. Is it referring to god being kind to everyone, or only to believers?

Other verses says, God burns disbelievers in Hell. Now, when we compare this with the Standard which says God is the most kind, we see this contradicts.

Yes it does. And it appears just as "clear" as the other verse at first sight.

We say this verse that says God burns disbelievers is a Mutishabihat, and we must not follow it.

Hold on. Why are you claiming that the second example is not clear? Why not the first one? The second actually seems clearer. So perhaps you should not follow the first.
BTW, isn't rejecting verses from the Quran an act of kufr?

Only God knows its interpretation and those who are Well-grounded in knowledge.

Are you claiming you are "Well-grounded in knowledge"?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Why do you insist on attacking straw men. I never claimed that Islam is "only following the 5 pillars".

OK, if you also say, 5 pillars is not enough then, great, we are in agreement.

Define "sect".
If they sincerely take the shahada and follow the 5 pillars, they are not committing shirk. The shahada avows only one god

A sect is defined in Quran. It is when there are different groups in a religion and each is happy with their own portion.

Jews also believe there is only one God. Why then other prophets came later, if just believing there is only one God was the main reason Proohets come.

According to all the tafsir I have consulted, that is referring to those who have left Islam for a new belief in one way or another. It is not referring to Muslims who have differences over theological details.
Remember that to some other Muslims, you are in a "sect".

But as you agreed, a Tafseer is simply idea of a person. We must see what Quran and Sunnah says.
Either way, dividing into sects is considered terrible in Quran.

In what way?

Good question. For example says God is Light of thr World. It also says Jesus is light of world.
Or for example, God is the first and last. Jesus is first and last, and also all Messengers. In these ways...and whatever else we see in the Book.

So, which sect do you follow, and why is it the correct one?

I am a Baha'i. I don't believe any sect is a true sect. But, I am open to any good teaching found in any sources. Could be Bible, Quran, Suffi Hadithes, Sunni Hadithes, Buddha's words,...etc.

 

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The second actually seems clearer. So perhaps you should not follow the first.
Are you claiming you are "Well-grounded in knowledge"?

Tell me about it. Bahai interpretation of Quran is very annoying. They don't believe in day of judgment like Muslims, they interpret as referring to some other concept and related to the period their Prophet is to be a Prophet for humanity.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The author of Behar Al-Anwar collected all Sunni hadiths he can too including ones that praise Abu Bakr and Umar. So Majlisi for example tried to collect hadiths from all sects and whatever he can retrieve. And then let people decide by their own means which is true.

Behar Al-Anwar has section that is about collection of hadiths that praise Abu Bakr and Umar though the author made it clear he does not believe in these hadiths.

Right, so, we need to compare Hadithes with the Muhkamaat of Quran. Whatever agrees we follow, regardless if it came from Sunni or Shia or Suffi.

 

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Right, so, we need to compare Hadithes with the Muhkamaat of Quran. Whatever agrees we follow, regardless if it came from Sunni or Shia or Suffi.

Then you are making the purpose of Ahlulbayt (a) coming useless.

We can't understand all of Quran, so some of it we have to delegate to tawatur level hadiths regardless if we see it in Quran or not.

 

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That is to say, Quran forbids over-relying on it too. What I mean by that, is to declare something to be of an interpretation of Quran without explanation of Ahlulbayt (a) is forbidden. Likewise following what is attributed in the Sunnah that is against clear signs of Quran is forbidden.

If we hold on to what is only clear to us, we won't be able to follow Islam for a very long time. Islam takes two things:

Time to download it's insights and practice to perceive it's wisdom.
And following and proving what you know through clear proofs from Quran and Sunnah.

We have to delegate trust to hadiths in the mean time, we can't get to understanding without practice.

This means, while we must reject what we know is false, and follow what we know is true, in the mean time, there is a lot of delegation to hadiths and Quranic interpretation we aren't sure of.

But God promises he will guide believers, so it's a matter of time and patience. As long as we aren't stubborn and our intention is for God, guidance will occur through Quran and Ahlulbayt (a).

 

[InvestigateTruth]

How do we know who has been given knowledge by god (apart from them claiming they have, or course)?

Not at all. "God is most kind" requires interpretation.
"Most" means "greatest in amount", "unable to be more of", then it means that god cannot be more kind than he is, and no one else could be more kind. He has the greatest amount of kindness possible. But god clearly could be more kind, in many ways. He could not torture disbelievers for eternity, for example. So either the Quran is wrong, or "most" doesn't mean what it usually means. Then there is the context. Is it referring to god being kind to everyone, or only to believers?

Yes it does. And it appears just as "clear" as the other verse at first sight.

Hold on. Why are you claiming that the second example is not clear? Why not the first one? The second actually seems clearer. So perhaps you should not follow the first.
BTW, isn't rejecting verses from the Quran an act of kufr?

I am referring to this verse:

"He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding" 3:7

You see. The Quran says those verses that are unclear are not to be followed. We must believe they are also from God. But we are instructed not to follow them!

So, it is a test. The Quran says, God gave this Book to test. So, if we think about its verses and correctly follow the instructions we can be guided. This is a test, for those who read it carefully, and think about its verses. This is what God expected.

Are you claiming you are "Well-grounded in knowledge"?

No, I am not. This is why I say, everything must be based on the Quran itself and the Sunnah. The Sunnah or Hadithes must be weighed against the Quran to ensure they are authentic.

 

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Hell-fire verses are unclear to to you InvesitgateTruth? Maybe, you should try to make Quran clear since it's a book of clear signs instead of making unclear what is clear.

Clarity and unclarity is relative, to Ahlulbayt (a) all of Quran is clear.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Then you are making the purpose of Ahlulbayt (a) coming useless.

We can't understand all of Quran, so some of it we have to delegate to tawatur level hadiths regardless if we see it in Quran or not.

The Ahlulbayt have said themselves, that whenever someone narrated a Hadith attributing it to the Ahlulbayt, we must weighed against the Quran and the Hadithes of Muhammad. Whatever agrees follow. If they don't agree with Sunnah of Prophet and Quran, reject it. This is what they said.
So, just because a Hadith from Imams or Muhammad is Mutiwatir is not a proof that it is authentic. It must ve weighed against Quran.
But, I believe those Mutiwatir Hadithes you are saying have their origin in the Quran. So, they are good.

 

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The Ahlulbayt have said themselves, that whenever someone narrated a Hadith attributing it to the Ahlulbayt, we must weighed against the Quran and the Hadithes of Muhammad. Whatever agrees follow. If they don't agree with Sunnah of Prophet and Quran, reject it. This is what they said.
So, just because a Hadith from Imams or Muhammad is Mutiwatir is not a proof that it is authentic. It must ve weighed against Quran.
But, I believe those Mutiwatir Hadithes you are saying have their origin in the Quran. So, they are good.

So at what age are we supposed to follow Shariah? At what point? Most of our lives we have to delegate we don't know Quran and Sunnah enough, and have to delegate trust to what is accepted by community.

In time, we can gain insights and know where they are wrong or right.

I'm saying this is not what Quran and hadiths teach either. They also teach precaution (ihteyat) as a possible measure when you don't know.

Anyways, the truth is, we can't say anything about God what we don't know and so disputes in community should send alarm bells that our approach is wrong. Still, you are going to have delegate some to unknown.

For example, do I know for sure the form of Salah? I don't verify every piece in Quran without doubt and in clear signs way. So the words said at every component takes a delegation of trust.

In time, in practice, their wisdom with respect to Quran can be unveiled.

So you have part of the equation but it's impractical. We can study our whole lives and not see all of Salah in Quran, are we to not perform Salah?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Hell-fire verses are unclear to to you InvesitgateTruth? Maybe, you should try to make Quran clear since it's a book of clear signs instead of making unclear what is clear.

Clarity and unclarity is relative, to Ahlulbayt (a) all of Quran is clear.

Ahlulbayt such as Imam Riza, said, the Mutishabihat verses must be weighed against the Muhkamaat.
So, I just gave an example.
If you think a loving and kind God, will burn people simply because they were unable to recognize there is a God, then how do you explain the obvious contradiction?
So, I am saying let's follow the instruction of Ahlulbayt.
When it says God is the most kind, this is Muhkamaat verse. How could God lie about Himself?
So, when it says God burns in fire, one must see if this Mutishabih or Muhkam. If we compare it with Muhkam, we see, this contradicts, so, we say this is Mutishabih. We then must not seek to interpret it, but we must learn from those who are Well-grounded in knowledge.

 

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Ahlulbayt such as Imam Riza, said, the Mutishabihat verses must be weighed against the Muhkamaat.
So, I just gave an example.
If you think a loving and kind God, will burn people simply because they were unable to recognize there is a God, then how do you explain the obvious contradiction?
So, I am saying let's follow the instruction of Ahlulbayt.
When it says God is the most kind, this is Muhkamaat verse. How could God lie about Himself?
So, when it says God burns in fire, one must see if this Mutishabih or Muhkam. If we compare it with Muhkam, we see, this contradicts, so, we say this is Mutishabih. We then must not seek to interpret it, but we must learn from those who are Well-grounded in knowledge.

The Quran has explained why God despite his mercy, will punish disbelievers. The hadiths are not needed in this case, since Quran is explicit in this regard and interprets itself.

And Ahlulbayt (a) taught God "is most compassionate and merciful in proper place of pardon and mercy and most severe in punishment in proper place of vengeance and punishment" same as Quran. Quran emphasizes God's forgiving but his punishment is the severe punishment.

It also has emphasized God is pardoning yet quick in retribution.

Imam Ali (a) says "Glory to be who's compassion for his friends doesn't prevent his punishment for his enemies". This is the middle station that is scary but true.

 

[Kooky]

BTW (as I keep having to repeat), I do not make any claims of truth or interpretation.

You literally claimed that your view on the meaning of the Quran is objective.
How else am I supposed to interpret that, than as a claim to objective truth?

I am merely answering questions based on the contents of scripture. Any interpretations provided are those of classical scholars.

I'm sorry, if you are simply quoting the Quran verbatim without adding any interpretation of your own - be it based on classical scholarship or whatever - then what's the point of asking you these questions, when I could simply look up the answers for myself? What value are you adding here?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

How do we know who has been given knowledge by god (apart from them claiming they have, or course)?

Good question.
1.One way, is similar question as saying how do you know who is a true Prophet.
2. Another way, is, if we already in agreement that Quran is a word of God, we can see, if there are hints and allusions to that.
So, if we go with number two, there are hints and allusions, that for example Ali is one of them as hinted in the Quran. Also, the Family of Prophet, meaning Ali, Hassan and Hussein... as Hinted in the Quran.
But, my suggestion is, this is worthy of another thread if you want to to go to its details.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Not at all. "God is most kind" requires interpretation.
"Most" means "greatest in amount", "unable to be more of", then it means that god cannot be more kind than he is, and no one else could be more kind. He has the greatest amount of kindness possible. But god clearly could be more kind, in many ways. He could not torture disbelievers for eternity, for example. So either the Quran is wrong, or "most" doesn't mean what it usually means. Then there is the context. Is it referring to god being kind to everyone, or only to believers?
?

Good points.

Are there examples in Quran, of something God said, and it required interpretation, because it was unclear?
An example I remember is in the Surrah of Joseph. He saw a dream. Stars, moon and Sun prostrate to Him. At the end, its interpretation was stars were brothers sun and moon were father and mother.

So, Fire, can have another meaning. We don't know. Only God knows what He meant by that. It could be allegorical. In that case only a person who is given knowledge can tell.
But when it says God is the most kind there is nothing allegorical about it.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

So at what age are we supposed to follow Shariah? At what point? Most of our lives we have to delegate we don't know Quran and Sunnah enough, and have to delegate trust to what is accepted by community.

In time, we can gain insights and know where they are wrong or right.

I'm saying this is not what Quran and hadiths teach either. They also teach precaution (ihteyat) as a possible measure when you don't know.

Anyways, the truth is, we can't say anything about God what we don't know and so disputes in community should send alarm bells that our approach is wrong. Still, you are going to have delegate some to unknown.

For example, do I know for sure the form of Salah? I don't verify every piece in Quran without doubt and in clear signs way. So the words said at every component takes a delegation of trust.

In time, in practice, their wisdom with respect to Quran can be unveiled.

So you have part of the equation but it's impractical. We can study our whole lives and not see all of Salah in Quran, are we to not perform Salah?

I believe what Quran says, is, if we make an effort for God He will guide us to the Right path in His own ways. This can happen at any age, but the end of each person is what matters. So, hopefully each person before he or she passes, is guided to do things as God wills. It is in a way Taqdeer, Qismat, Qaza... or whatever God has willed. It is not all upto us. God make a person Messenger, and gives Him such a high station. It is His Taqdeer. God makes a person like Ali, and gives him such a station. He also creates a person like Feroun, vs Moses. It is like, God creates the Sun, Moon, starts, and even smal planets. He created us, in the same way. He created us different. Just as there must have been a Moses, there must have been a Pharaoh. All of it was written in His Tablet, just a predestination. Just as a story that was pre-written and then happend. So, is all of us.

 

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I believe what Quran says, is, if we make an effort for God He will guide us to the Right path in His own ways. This can happen at any age, but the end of each person is what matters. So, hopefully each person before he or she passes, is guided to do things as God wills. It is in a way Taqdeer, Qismat, Qaza... or whatever God has willed. It is not all upto us. God make a person Messenger, and gives Him such a high station. It is His Taqdeer. God makes a person like Ali, and gives him such a station. He also creates a person like Feroun, vs Moses. It is like, God creates the Sun, Moon, starts, and even smal planets. He created us, in the same way. He created us different. Just as there must have been a Moses, there must have been a Pharaoh. All of it was written in His Tablet, just a predestination. Just as a story that was pre-written and then happend. So, is all of us.

I believe it's simple. God always puts a leader in all time. If he is in public, then seek his guidance. If he is hidden, ask God to guide you by him.

Allah (swt) will guide by his leader for those who see no helper other then God and who God suffices as a Guide and Guardian and no one else suffices but God.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The Quran has explained why God despite his mercy, will punish disbelievers. The hadiths are not needed in this case, since Quran is explicit in this regard and interprets itself.

And Ahlulbayt (a) taught God "is most compassionate and merciful in proper place of pardon and mercy and most severe in punishment in proper place of vengeance and punishment" same as Quran. Quran emphasizes God's forgiving but his punishment is the severe punishment.

It also has emphasized God is pardoning yet quick in retribution.

Imam Ali (a) says "Glory to be who's compassion for his friends doesn't prevent his punishment for his enemies". This is the middle station that is scary but true.

Right. But God punishes a misguided people, not to make them just suffer, but, to cause them to return to God.
But punishment must be in proportion of what is done.
If we imagine, there is a physical hell with fire, burning people who were not believers, what benefit does it have? How would this punishment be in proportion with their inability to believe? Is God an angry God? Is God mad to make people suffer because they could not see Him and believe He exists?
I don't think this is logical.
But, in Hadithes and Quran, it is said, whenever a people rejected a Messenger, God punished them here on earth. But, the punishment has a purpose. It is meant to make them a better human. It is like a teacher who punishes to give them a lesson. This is why, it is written, this world is like a school.

 

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Right. But God punishes a misguided people, not to make them just suffer, but, to cause them to return to God.
But punishment must be in proportion of what is done.
If we imagine, there is a physical hell with fire, burning people who were not believers, what benefit does it have? How would this punishment be in proportion with their inability to believe? Is God an angry God? Is God mad to make people suffer because they could not see Him and believe He exists?
I don't think this is logical.
But, in Hadithes and Quran, it is said, whenever a people rejected a Measenger, God punished them here on earth. But, the punishment has a purpose. It is meant to make them a better human. It is like a teacher who punishes to give them a lesson.

Good and evil is not about limited actions but in fact, eternal actions that are infinite, the infinities are just about speed. The different levels of amplification of paradise rewards or hell punishment, is about the pace of good deeds or evil deeds.

They are all perpetual as they are connected to God in some unseen way we don't perceive. I've witnessed a vision of hell already. You can say it's part of my madness - and often I use to believe it was, but I know what it is.

I see hell and paradise, related to us, can sense both energies. The eternal light has two responses from us when he mixed his light with that of time, either submit and embrace or rebel and run. The Dunya is intoxication of Iblis and makes avoiding God and paradise fun, but later as we grow, we know it's vain, and hence must fear God and run away from hell towards God's light.

We have to enter the door of light. All deeds are forever and infinite in nature but the hour has been hidden to that effect, the accounting veiled. But I see it. I know it's true because I witness the reality of energies, Iblis forces, dark magic, light from God and Baqiyatallah (af) is my refuge and connection to Mohammad (a), Ali (a), Fatima (a), etc.

Every deed takes infinite form, this is why God says "to all is a doubling (amplifying) but you didn't know".

 

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It's how we place our bets. Placing the bet, there is no hell, no heaven, and choosing temporary gains over perpetual gains, is such that, it's insolence towards God and is unforgivable unless we repent and enter God's doors and empower ourselves with his sustenance and light.

To run away from God and let Iblis defeat us, enjoying the process, and not even giving a Satan any fight, is a choice directly related to forever fate. It's precisely the bet that we won't be accounted forever for temporary pleasure but with no certainty there is no hell, that suffices, ironically, that hell becomes our forever recompense.

God is the refuge through those who are his name. To have not sought God's guidance and proofs had consequences. This life was not a vain test and justice will be served and we are responsible over the direction we took and what we strove for.