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Ask a Mormon! (Part Two)

FFH

Veteran Member
Emu said:
Do you believe in a rapture?
The "rapture," as it was coined, by an early Christian woman, I forget her name at the moment, is just a term to describe an event in which we will be "caught up" to meet the Lord in the air at his coming.

This event is in our LDS scriptures as well as the Bible and is referred to as being "caught up" or a "catching away" of the saints.

It's there it's just not discussed in LDS meetings at all for some reason....

I'll post the scriptures and let you decide what you think or make of it....

And yes we do believe we will literally disappear, as the LDS scriptures state....
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
There are certain times when the Prophet is not wrong, but there are some qualifiers for that.
Do you know what they are? Such as the Pope speaking ex Catherdra?

You know what? I'm not even 100% positive of what that means. It's a word I have never once heard in an LDS worship service.
That God will call all of His followers up to heaven, ostensibly before all or some of the bad things happen as foretold in their interpretation of Revelation.
 

Bishka

Veteran Member
Mister Emu said:
Do you know what they are? Such as the Pope speaking ex Catherdra?

In a way yes....I'll let Kathryn speak a bit more on this one, as I'm not exactly sure on the qualifers.
 

Comprehend

Res Ipsa Loquitur
Mister Emu said:
Do you believe in a rapture?

No. We believe what mainstream christians (MSC) call the rapture is actually the resurrection and it will not happen when MSC believe it will. They view it as Christ taking them off the earth before the bad stuff happens, we believe we will be here for that but will be taken up to meet Christ at the first resurrection.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Mister Emu said:
Do you know what they are? Such as the Pope speaking ex Catherdra?
It would be quite similar, actually. The Prophet gives us guidance and counsel virtually ever time he speaks. But in terms of new revelation, for instance, he would have to declare that such-and-such has been revealed to him as the word of God. The Quorum of the Twelve Apostles would also have to give their sustaining vote that the Lord has spoken and confirmed His message to them. The prophet is, however, a fallible being like the rest of us. He may hold opinions that are his own that we are free to disagree with.

I heard a saying once that really made me laugh. It was: "In Catholicism, the Pope's infallible, but nobody believes it. In Mormonism, the Prophet's fallible, but nobody believes it."

That God will call all of His followers up to heaven, ostensibly before all or some of the bad things happen as foretold in their interpretation of Revelation.
Unless I'm mistaken, we do have a doctrine something along those lines, but I would have to do some research into it to give you any definitive information on it. As I said, this isn't something we really focus all that much on.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
comprehend said:
No. We believe what mainstream christians (MSC) call the rapture is actually the resurrection and it will not happen when MSC believe it will. They view it as Christ taking them off the earth before the bad stuff happens, we believe we will be here for that but will be taken up to meet Christ at the first resurrection.
That's exactly the doctrine I was thinking about, but I didn't know where to find it. Do you?
 

FFH

Veteran Member
Here is an LDS canonized scripture about being "caught up" or "raptured" to meet the Lord in the air....

Doctrine and Covenants 88: 96-98

96 And the saints that are upon the earth, who are alive, shall be quickened and be caught up to meet him.

97 And they who have slept in their graves shall come forth, for their graves shall be opened; and they also shall be caught up to meet him in the midst of the pillar of heaven—

98 They are Christ’s, the first fruits, they who shall descend with him first, and they who are on the earth and in their graves, who are first caught up to meet him; and all this by the voice of the sounding of the trump of the angel of God.

The reason this scripture states we will descend with the Lord, when he sets up his kingdom, is because we will have been "caught up" or taken off the earth/disappear prior to the Lord setting up His kingdom on the earth, so that the Lord, in his mercy, can spare the righteous, by removing them from off the earth, before he destroys the wicked in the last days...
 

FFH

Veteran Member
This event will happen prior to the destruction of the wicked in the last days.

1 Thessalonian 4: 17

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Revelation 12: 5

And she brought forth a man child,who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron (which is the word of God or scripture): and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
 

DeepShadow

White Crow
Since we appear to have a contradiction here, with FFH saying "yes" and comprehend "no," it appears we need clarification. Part of the reason this is a tricky question is because the specifics are not mentioned in scripture; much of what could be said on this topic would be someone's opinion.

First, though, let's go through some scriptures that deal with the rapture. Luke 17, among others, states that people standing side-by-side will share different fates: one taken, the other left. This is part of the inspiration for the MSC "rapture" image of people vanishing, but there's nothing there about people vanishing. Most LDS take this scripture to mean that one will be chosen, while the other will not; the mechanics of what happens when one is chosen are not specified.

In 1 Thessalonians 4: 17 we read that those "which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." The time frame is the question: when is this coming in the chronology of the end times? MSC's claim that it comes before the "tribulations" mentioned in Revelations, but it's hard to say.
 

Comprehend

Res Ipsa Loquitur
FFH said:
Here is an LDS canonized scripture about being "caught up" or "raptured" to meet the Lord in the air....

Doctrine and Covenants 88: 96-98

96 And the saints that are upon the earth, who are alive, shall be quickened and be caught up to meet him.

97 And they who have slept in their graves shall come forth, for their graves shall be opened; and they also shall be caught up to meet him in the midst of the pillar of heaven—

98 They are Christ’s, the first fruits, they who shall descend with him first, and they who are on the earth and in their graves, who are first caught up to meet him; and all this by the voice of the sounding of the trump of the angel of God.

The reason this scripture states we will descend with the Lord, when he sets up his kingdom, is because we will have been "caught up" or taken off the earth/disappear prior to the Lord setting up His kingdom on the earth, so that the Lord, in his mercy, can spare the righteous, by removing them from off the earth, before he destroys the wicked in the last days...

Get it ????

uh. no. that is the rapture doctrine. LDS doctrine is that we will be here.
 

Comprehend

Res Ipsa Loquitur
Encyclopedia of Mormonism:

In a general sense, the Resurrection may be divided into the resurrection of the just, also called the first resurrection, and the resurrection of the unjust, or the last resurrection. The first resurrection commenced with the resurrection of Christ and with those who immediately thereafter came forth from their graves. In much larger numbers, it will precede the thousand-year millennial reign, inaugurated by the "second coming" of the Savior (D&C 45:44-45; cf. 1 Thes. 4:16-17). At that time, some will be brought forth to meet him, as he descends in glory. This first resurrection will continue in proper order through the Millennium. The righteous who live on earth and die during the Millennium will experience immediate resurrection. Their transformation will take place in the "twinkling of an eye" (D&C 63:51). The first resurrection includes the celestial and terrestrial glories.


We will not go away anywhere. Some will be taken up to meet him "AS HE DESCENDS", which means we end up right back where we started. This isn't my opinion. I can dig up a bunch of LDS doctrine saying this. (and I am sure I will have to so I will).
 

FFH

Veteran Member
comprehend said:
uh. no. that is the rapture doctrine. LDS doctrine is that we will be here.
I respect this and just as there are debates about the timing of the "first resurrection" or "rapture" in other Christian groups, so are there debates about the timing of the "first resurrection" amongst LDS members. I happen to believe it is before the final destruction of the wicked....and just as you have stated you believe it's after the destruction of the wicked....

It's all the same, it's just the timing that most Christians debate about. There are many Christians who believe it will happen after the destruction of the wicked, just as many LDS do, but that's for another thread....;)
 

DeepShadow

White Crow
Again, it's the timeline that's speculative. I could clear it up a little if I could find the section I need in the CES study manual, but even that wouldn't be a definitive statement.

In situations like these, it's good to remember Alma 12: 9
"And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him."
 

Comprehend

Res Ipsa Loquitur
Encyclopedia of Mormonism - Last Days (in pertinent part)

In contrast to these preparatory events, the prophecies state that in the last days gross wickedness will cover the earth (2 Tim. 3:1-7). Ancient and modern prophets have written that the world's latter-day inhabitants will "defile the earth" (Isa. 24:5) and become as wicked as Sodom and Gomorrah (Wilford Woodruff in Ludlow, p. 224) and as those of the time of Noah (DS 3:20), and that if Jesus "were here to-day, and should preach the same doctrine He did then, they would put Him to death" (HC 6:58).

This wickedness will result in wars of unprecedented destruction (George A. Smith, CR, Oct. 1946, p. 149), parents and children seeking each other's lives (Mark 13:12; HC 3:391), great increases in crime (Wilford Woodruff in Ludlow, p. 228), the destruction of many cities (Brigham Young in Ludlow, p. 223), and a "desolating scourge" that will reach plague proportions (D&C 29:19).

As the end nears, the earth will be in commotion (D&C 45:26; cf. Joel 2:30-32). There will be severe lightnings and thunderings (D&C 87:6). The waves of the sea will heave themselves beyond their bounds (D&C 88:90). The earth will "reel to and fro as a drunken man" (D&C 49:23). A devastating hailstorm will destroy the crops of the earth (D&C 29:16), causing widespread famine (Brigham Young in Ludlow, p. 223). These judgments and wars will ultimately result in the "full end" of all nations (D&C 87:6).

Immediately preceding the Second Coming, unmistakable signs will appear in the heavens. The sun will be darkened, the moon will turn to blood, the stars will fall, and the powers of heaven will be shaken (D&C 45:42). In addition, the rainbow will be taken from the sky (HC 6:254). Finally, a great sign will be seen having the appearance of "seven golden lamps set in the heavens representing the various dispensations of God to man" (Wilford Woodruff in Ludlow, pp. 233-34). There will then be silence in heaven for half an hour, and "immediately after shall the curtain of heaven be unfolded as a scroll is unfolded after it is rolled up, and the face of the Lord shall be unveiled" (D&C 88:95).

As the earth becomes increasingly full of violence and immorality, the righteous will be watching the signs of the times and will call upon the Lord and seek to be worthy to abide the day of his coming (Luke 21:36; Acts 2:21). These faithful disciples of the Lord will experience "very little compared with the terrible destruction, the misery and suffering that will overtake the world" (John Taylor in Ludlow, p. 225; Moses 7:61); moreover, the righteous who fall victim to pestilence and to disease will be saved in the kingdom of God (HC 4:11).

To escape these judgments, the faithful will obey the commandments (DS 3:33-35; Luke 21:36), honor the priesthood (Wilford Woodruff in Ludlow, pp. 235-36), take the Holy Spirit for their guide (D&C 45:57), and stand in holy places (D&C 45:32). As the polarization of the righteous and the wicked increases, the righteous followers of the Savior will be called "Zion" (both the condition of purity of heart and the community of the pure-hearted). A city, Zion (the New Jerusalem), will be established on the American continent and, together with her outlying stakes, will be a place of refuge (HC 3:391). And old Jerusalem will become a holy city (Ether 13:5). From these two capital cities of the millennial era, Jesus Christ will personally rule the renewed, paradisiacal world (see New Jerusalem).
 

Comprehend

Res Ipsa Loquitur
FFH said:
I respect this and just as there are debates about the timing of the "first resurrection" or "rapture" in other Christian groups, so are there debates about the timing of the "first resurrection" amongst LDS members. I happen to believe it is before the final destruction of the wicked....and just as you have stated you believe it's after the destruction of the wicked....

It's all the same, it's just the timing that most Christians debate about. There are many Christians who believe it will happen after the destruction of the wicked, just as many LDS do, but that's for another thread....;)

There is absolutely no debate in LDS doctrine that we don't go away anywhere off the planet to avoid anything. Ever. There may be some doubt in your mind but only if you are not aware of our doctrine.

My apologies to soup but the church doctrine is clear on this one.
 

Comprehend

Res Ipsa Loquitur
DeepShadow said:
Again, it's the timeline that's speculative. I could clear it up a little if I could find the section I need in the CES study manual, but even that wouldn't be a definitive statement.

In situations like these, it's good to remember Alma 12: 9
"And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him."

lets ignore the timeline completely for the moment. No matter when you want to think it happens. The Church says we don't go away. We go up, and right back down. That is my problem. When FFH says that we go away to avoid the death and destruction at the end he is repeating the rapture doctrine that our church does not follow. that is the bottom line.
 

Comprehend

Res Ipsa Loquitur
Katzpur said:
Uh oh... Here we go again. Becky's gonna be mad at you guys! ;)

I know. I can't help it. Why don't we just tell people that we believe that Jesus may or may not have a body and that it's really up for debate in our church. Or maybe that the book of Mormon might just be a copy of Solomon Spauldings book and we aren't so sure about it?
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
comprehend said:
I know. I can't help it. Why don't we just tell people that we believe that Jesus may or may not have a body and that it's really up for debate in our church. Or maybe that the book of Mormon might just be a copy of Solomon Spauldings book and we aren't so sure about it?
I was just kidding ya! (Check your frubals. :D )
 

DeepShadow

White Crow
I know. I can't help it. Why don't we just tell people that we believe that Jesus may or may not have a body and that it's really up for debate in our church. Or maybe that the book of Mormon might just be a copy of Solomon Spauldings book and we aren't so sure about it?

Because those things can be clarified by an appeal to the standard works and a minimum of interpretation. The Encyclopedia of Mormonism is not a standard work, but a reference work, no matter how extraordinarily useful. FWIW, other such commentaries I've read agree with it, and there's no scripture to support the "escaping the tribulation" part of FFH's argument, but that's as far as we can go while sticking to the standard works.
 
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