Are transgender/transsexual people accepted in your religion?

[Poisonshady313]

That's just as equally terrible.

While I don't live that way, I disagree. I see why, and I don't think it's terrible.

It is these foolish segregations and insisting that people be separated and walls built between groups is why we hate bigotry, discrimination, hatred, and especially among you Abrahamics, centuries upon centuries of blood shed and war.

I'm willing to bet that when you go to sleep at night, you lock your door just like the rest of us. Not because you hate the rest of the world, but because you're smart enough to protect yourself. Orthodox Jews usually try to stay where there are other Orthodox Jews as a way to protect their way of life. Jews in public schools are often harassed and bullied, by fellow students and adults alike, for not being Christian. Something as simple as me not eating bread at lunchtime during Passover was all it took for questions about why I don't believe in Jesus followed by people who I thought were my friends telling me I'm going to hell. THAT is the sort of bigotry, discrimination, and hatred that Jewish families avoid when they live in religious communities and send their kids to a yeshiva.

And to Tumah's point about avoiding transgression, Jewish kids going to a Jewish school are less likely to run into a situation where Benjamin's tuna sandwich gets traded for Johnny's ham sandwich.

Again... it's not about hatred... it's about protecting one's way of life.

Don't you think it's time to tear down the walls and start helping to repair the world and society instead of damaging it further?

Judaism is all about helping to repair the world. Google the phrase tikkun olam (it literally means repairing the world). But at the end of the day, I still lock my doors.

 

[Liu]

What I'm getting at is that it's not natural for humans to change sex. Which doesn't speak on any morality, it's just not something we can do. We require surgery for it to take place (although even then, I don't think it's 100% functional as it is with other species.)

I see.
But there are a lot of things which we humans do or try to which isn't natural in that sense.
And even if it's not 100% functional, it's certainly better than nothing for those affected.

Nah, Fenrir, Jormungandr, and Hel were birthed by Angraboda; Loki was the father.

I've encountered other interpretations. Angrboda was burnt, Loki ate her heart, and he got pregnant from it and gave birth to a wolf. So I'd at least understand what it says in Hyndluljóð:

Ol vlf Loki
vid Angrbodu
enn Sleipni gat
vid Suadilfara.
eitt þotti skars
allra feiknazst
þat var brodur fra
Byleistz komit.

Loki af hiarta
lindi brendu
fann hann haalfsuidinn
hugstein komu
vard Loptr kuidugr
af konu illri
þadan er aa folldu
flagd huert komit.
Hér hefr upp Hyndluljóð – heimskringla.no

Since there are reasons to believe that she's the same as Gullveig who was burnt three times, it can be expected that also the other two children he had with her were birthed by him in that same manner. But I admit that there is a degree of uncertaintly regarding these matters.

And ultimately, it doesn't change the fact in which I have to agree with you that it's not the same as what's nowadays understood by transsexuality.

Short answer, yes.
Long answer, Zoroastrianism does not give a damn about your gender or sexual orientation because the focus of Zoroastrianism is about doing good in your life rather than focusing on what comes after. In that similar vein, Good Thoughts, Good Words, Good Deeds, ties into that.

I know very little about contemporary Zoroastrianism. But from what I heard about historical forms of it, what is considered "good deeds" etc. in it is not always what other cultures would call such.
Admittedly, my main source on it so far have been texts by contemporary Ahrimanists, which isn't the most neutral source in these matters, but they really didn't make it sound like Zoroastrianism would be the first religion to embrace transpeople.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Jesus ate with and loved sinners but He never condoned sin.

Jesus also had a tendency to smartmouth his way out of accusations of HIS sins.

 

[Tumah]

You said you didn't want your children around me. That's something you say about tweakers, thieves, and child abusers. LBGT? It's just as bad as the US Fed saying pot is a schedule 1 while crystal is schedule 2. You don't want your kids around people you don't like and approve of. It's not like we're shooting up and planing to steal and rape your children.

No, that's something you say about tweakers (I don't even know what that is), thieves and child abusers.
Its something I say about anyone who is publicly transgressing Jewish Law (or normalizing in their minds transgression of a Jewish Law).

 

[Tumah]

That's just as equally terrible. It is these foolish segregations and insisting that people be separated and walls built between groups is why we hate bigotry, discrimination, hatred, and especially among you Abrahamics, centuries upon centuries of blood shed and war.

No it isn't.

Don't you think it's time to tear down the walls and start helping to repair the world and society instead of damaging it further?

Let the people who partake of your society be responsible for it. Don't pull me into your mess and then ask me to help you clean it up.

 

[DavidFirth]

Jesus also had a tendency to smartmouth his way out of accusations of HIS sins.

Nonsense since He had no sin.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

I see. But there are a lot of things which we humans do or try to which isn't natural in that sense. And even if it's not 100% functional, it's certainly better than nothing for those affected.

Right, but it's not something that is natural. And to point, nothing is that is artificially made by our intelligence; our false-fur (clothes), false-hooves (shoes), etc--none of it is naturally occurring. And it's not just humans, either; tools made by ravens and chimpanzees aren't natural either.

For me, it's one thing to accept and tolerate transgenderism. It's another to claim that it's natural in humans.

I've encountered other interpretations. Angrboda was burnt, Loki ate her heart, and he got pregnant from it and gave birth to a wolf. So I'd at least understand what it says in Hyndluljóð:

I've never heard that interpretation, but that's not exactly what is said in the Hyndluljóð.

The wolf did Loki | with Angrbotha win,
And Sleipnir bore he | to Svathilfari;
The worst of marvels | seemed the one
That sprang from the brother | of Byleist then.

A heart ate Loki,-- | in the embers it lay,
And half-cooked found he | the woman's heart;--
With child from the woman | Lopt soon was,
And thence among men | came the monsters all.

Fragment of "The Short Voluspo", Hyndluljóð, Henry Adams Bellows translation, [1936]

It states the lineages of Loki - Fenrir with Angrboða, Sleipnir with Svaðilfari, and Jörmungandr as simply "springing from" Loki with no second party. Eating the heart basically means that she's dead, and so Loki got custody of the children, but not that he bore them; that bit comes after they are already born.

Now, here's the problem. The "Short Voluspo" by Snorri is grossly inferior to the actual Voluspa, and seems to be an effort to create a "family line" tying a modern (of the time) king to the gods. It is flawed and criticized as much of the Prose Edda is, for the same reason. However where we get the parentage of Fenrir, Jörmungandr, and Hel is in the poem Gylfaginning of the Prose Edda. There it is stated:

"Yet more children had Loki. Angrboða was the name of a certain giantess in Jötunheim, with whom Loki gat three children: one was Fenris-Wolf, the second Jörmungandr--that is the Midgard Serpent,--the third is Hel." -Gylfaginning, chapter 34

 

[Shadow Wolf]

tweakers (I don't even know what that is),

Generally it can be someone who abuses any speed, but it's usually used specifically for someone who abuses meth.

Its something I say about anyone who is publicly transgressing Jewish Law (or normalizing in their minds transgression of a Jewish Law).

Why? Do you say that about other Jews?

No it isn't.

It is. Walls divide. Religious walls tend to divide the most.

Let the people who partake of your society be responsible for it. Don't pull me into your mess and then ask me to help you clean it up.

While I can't say exactly to what extent, by you using this forum we have evidence enough that you do indeed partake of society larger than your own community.

I'm willing to bet that when you go to sleep at night, you lock your door just like the rest of us. Not because you hate the rest of the world, but because you're smart enough to protect yourself. Orthodox Jews usually try to stay where there are other Orthodox Jews as a way to protect their way of life. Jews in public schools are often harassed and bullied, by fellow students and adults alike, for not being Christian. Something as simple as me not eating bread at lunchtime during Passover was all it took for questions about why I don't believe in Jesus followed by people who I thought were my friends telling me I'm going to hell. THAT is the sort of bigotry, discrimination, and hatred that Jewish families avoid when they live in religious communities and send their kids to a yeshiva.

So you'd rather just run and keep to yourselves than standing up for yourselves? I've gotten odd looks for eating meatless meal, sometimes take crap for being a godless heathen, I was tormented in school like a great many of those with Asperger's are, and I don't have to look very far in pop-culture entertainment to find examples of just the existence of transgender people being the punchline.
You may want to protect your way of life, but nothing gets done about things like the bullying in school when you resort to slinking into the background. We wouldn't have legal same-sex marriage, women wouldn't have gotten far, and we may have still had segregation.

 

[arthra]

Are transgender/transsexual people accepted in your religion?

I would say the people themselves are accepted... A genetic identity is accepted. It's the behaviour or conscious actions of people whether they be transgender or not that could be of concern.

 

[Poisonshady313]

So you'd rather just run and keep to yourselves than standing up for yourselves? I've gotten odd looks for eating meatless meal, sometimes take crap for being a godless heathen, I was tormented in school like a great many of those with Asperger's are, and I don't have to look very far in pop-culture entertainment to find examples of just the existence of transgender people being the punchline.

Orthodox Jews who live in the sorts of communities I describe don't have to run. They just don't send their kids to places where they are likely to have to deal with Jesus or ham sandwiches because neither are conducive to living a Torah observant life. It's not about not having to stand up to adversity (I'm sure within those communities there is some sort of adversity they have to deal with)... it's about not having impressionable Jewish children in an environment where the transgression of Jewish law is normal.

 

[Liu]

Right, but it's not something that is natural. And to point, nothing is that is artificially made by our intelligence; our false-fur (clothes), false-hooves (shoes), etc--none of it is naturally occurring. And it's not just humans, either; tools made by ravens and chimpanzees aren't natural either.

For me, it's one thing to accept and tolerate transgenderism. It's another to claim that it's natural in humans.

Thanks for clarifying, I think we agree here. (although I normally don't use the term "natural" in that meaning)

I've never heard that interpretation, but that's not exactly what is said in the Hyndluljóð.

The wolf did Loki | with Angrbotha win,
And Sleipnir bore he | to Svathilfari;
The worst of marvels | seemed the one
That sprang from the brother | of Byleist then.

A heart ate Loki,-- | in the embers it lay,
And half-cooked found he | the woman's heart;--
With child from the woman | Lopt soon was,
And thence among men | came the monsters all.

Fragment of "The Short Voluspo", Hyndluljóð, Henry Adams Bellows translation, [1936]

That's a rather free translation. The line in question is the penultimate one. Literally translated it means "Loptr got pregnant ('kviðugr') from the evil woman". The next line may refer to either all three of his children which got born that way, or be just a general summary of the previous lines. You are right that it doesn't specify that this is about the birth of Fenrir, that was my own interpretation, but it's not like poetic texts would always tell things in the order in which they happen, and what the text clearly does say is that Loki got pregnant, and not only by a horse but also by a woman.
Admittedly, though, it is by Snorri, so who knows whether it has anything to do with actual pagan beliefs.
The part in Gylfaginning doesn't mention who of the two bore them.

 

[LukeS]

I appreciate the honesty. Still, I can hardly be expected to sympathise with the stance.

Well religiously I am in for me. I think socially Id be ostracised by many other faith or even secular groups. Ive tried many, and there is always a glitch, whereas in Islam I have many good friends. I wouldnt like to be mentally Ill in some of these so called "muslim" countries, and by the same measure I think I ought to broaden my "tolerance" (fwoabw) of unusual gender attitudes.

If you were gender different and really wanted to come to a Mosque I wonder why, If youre sincerely faithful then I think there ought to be tolerance if its forced on you by genetics etc. But you just cant dress up and change sex for fun. Personally I like some womens necklaces, like theyre out of the sci fi show stargate compared to "masculine" jewellery. But I don't wear them out of religious motivation, I try to respect the setting that respects me, and treats me as a "brother" where for all the human rights in the world other groups don't seem to.

I think that the clash of values ought to be expected, and not respolved instantaneously. Like galaxies colliding thres not a total whipeout, but a new equilibrium.

Also I fully respect others rights outside of the faith, to do as they want according to their legitimate freedom under the law of the land.

 

[Liu]

If you were gender different and really wanted to come to a Mosque I wonder why, If youre sincerely faithful then I think there ought to be tolerance if its forced on you by genetics etc. But you just cant dress up and change sex for fun.

Why not?
And it's not really "for fun" for us transpeople. It's because we get serious depressions otherwise.

In regards to genetics, are you talking about intersexuals here (people born with a combination of male and female sex organs)? Or are you talking about the genetics which cause someone to be trans (i.e. the current main theory that it's caused by biological reasons and something one is born as)?

 

[LuisDantas]

Well religiously I am in for me. I think socially Id be ostracised by many other faith or even secular groups.

Sorry, but I don't think that deserves to be called a religious stance.

 

[Prestor John]

Well? Why or why not?

They are in mine. My Goddess doesn't give a damn if you're LGBT or not. It's all the same to Her and She is the merging and destruction of all qualities and dualities, anyway. She is male, female, both and neither. For a man to be a Shakta, he must embrace his own feminine aspect in the first place, making male Shaktas somewhat gender variant in a fashion to begin with. (Which is fascinating and brings up interesting questions for me as a female to male transsexual.)

I'm also a Satanist and view Satan as either feminine or androgynous.

I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and we welcome all people to worship the Lord Jesus Christ with us no matter their sexual preferences.

However, if an individual wishes to become a baptized member of the Church he/she must accept the living reality of the Son of God, truly believe that His Church has been restored in these latter-days through His servant the Prophet Joseph Smith, come to realize that the Book of Mormon and other revealed scriptures are true and keep the commandments of the Lord as have been outlined by the scriptures and defined by Church leaders.

A core LDS belief is that all men and women are the literal spirit children of God the Father and that before we entered into mortality we dwelt with Him and He prepared us for this earth life. Each of us had a gender as spirits and our gender is an eternal characteristic that can never be changed.

We encourage all people to study these and other eternal truths in their minds and hearts, ponder on them and then sincerely ask God the Father, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, if they are true. We testify that if the one seeking truth is sincere and humble, having faith in Christ, the truth of all things can be made manifest to them through the power of the Holy Ghost.

We testify that the difficulties of the flesh are temporary and limited and that they can be overcome by relying on the merits and grace of Lord Jesus Christ. He suffered and died so that all people could repent of their sins, change their ways and follow Him.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and we welcome all people to worship the Lord Jesus Christ with us no matter their sexual preferences.

However, if an individual wishes to become a baptized member of the Church he/she must accept the living reality of the Son of God, truly believe that His Church has been restored in these latter-days through His servant the Prophet Joseph Smith, come to realize that the Book of Mormon and other revealed scriptures are true and keep the commandments of the Lord as have been outlined by the scriptures and defined by Church leaders.

A core LDS belief is that all men and women are the literal spirit children of God the Father and that before we entered into mortality we dwelt with Him and He prepared us for this earth life. Each of us had a gender as spirits and our gender is an eternal characteristic that can never be changed.

We encourage all people to study these and other eternal truths in their minds and hearts, ponder on them and then sincerely ask God the Father, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, if they are true. We testify that if the one seeking truth is sincere and humble, having faith in Christ, the truth of all things can be made manifest to them through the power of the Holy Ghost.

We testify that the difficulties of the flesh are temporary and limited and that they can be overcome by relying on the merits and grace of Lord Jesus Christ. He suffered and died so that all people could repent of their sins, change their ways and follow Him.

What if the soul's gender is the opposite of that of their body through some mishap?

 

[Skwim]

A core LDS belief is that all men and women are the literal spirit children of God the Father and that before we entered into mortality we dwelt with Him and He prepared us for this earth life. Each of us had a gender as spirits and our gender is an eternal characteristic that can never be changed.

We encourage all people to study these and other eternal truths in their minds and hearts, ponder on them and then sincerely ask God the Father, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, if they are true.

So where should a person go to study the eternal truth that "each of us had a gender as spirits and our gender is an eternal characteristic that can never be changed"?

.

 

[InquisitiveScholar]

I know very little about contemporary Zoroastrianism. But from what I heard about historical forms of it, what is considered "good deeds" etc. in it is not always what other cultures would call such.
Admittedly, my main source on it so far have been texts by contemporary Ahrimanists, which isn't the most neutral source in these matters, but they really didn't make it sound like Zoroastrianism would be the first religion to embrace transpeople.

I am curious where you got this perception from the idea that Good Deeds, which is literally doing good, is not a universally accepted thing. Of course the definition of doing good changes over the times and ages, but in general what most western monotheistic traditions see as doing good, is right up the same path as the Zoroastrian route. In the ancient world, and early medieval world, Zoroastrians were incredibly tolerant people. The governments were something else entirely, but the people didn't care too much because the focus of Zoroastrianism was not on what came after, but rather how you acted in this life. So I am a little perplexed where you got the idea that Trans people, would not be accepted.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

He suffered and died

He was the son of god with the promise of resurrection. He is immortal and had one lousy weekend.
At least Prometheus is resurrected everyday so his liver can be eaten out by a giant eagle or whatever. That is suffering and torment. With what Jesus allegedly was/is, it's no different than me claiming I suffered while the clamp was on my tongue when I got it pierced. It's like a child screaming they have the worst parents ever because the parents grounded the child, while the neighbor's kid is being molested by their parents.

What if the soul's gender is the opposite of that of their body through some mishap?

It sure is that way with me. With hormones alone I've never known such inner peace. So long now since I've regretted my birth not being fatal. Life is precious and sacred. But trying to be a guy, be a man, I couldn't see this and I couldn't wait for this life to end. Or, at for at least as much as I "believe in a soul." This body just should not have been born male. And while even being aware that there is a long list of ways I won't be fully accepted as female (as with male), just feeling better about myself during, throughout and at the end of the day makes the list of "won't haves" worth bearing. I quite like sleeping being happy and smiling instead of suicidal and crying.

 

[The Holy Bottom Burp]

I haven't gone through every post (nowhere near) but I did post this recently. Transgender People Welcomed by The Church of England The times are a-changing!