Are Homosexuals going to Hell?

[Grumpuss]

This sentence is simply not true.
I don't think you qualify as an official spokesperson for God.

God has no official spokesperson.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Don't tell that to Joel Osteen...

 

[columbus]

God has no official spokesperson.

Nevertheless, lots of humans think that they are.
@Kemosloby is only one of millions. From Moses to Muhammad to the Pope to Fred Phelps to Mike Huckabee to...
Well the list is just endless. And that's just the people claiming to speak for the God of Abraham. Add in all the Hindus and Aztecs and Hellenists and whatever.
Human history has been dominated by people claiming to speak for God.
I am not impressed by their claims, myself. That's how I came to be a non-theist.
Religion is fiction, human invention having nothing to do with the Creator.

Tom

 

[columbus]

God has no official spokesperson.

I can't help but notice that you contradicted me, but not @Kemosloby .
It's like the Muslims who don't personally advocate violence, but don't contradict the ones who do, because they all agree that the Qur'an is true.
Tom

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Again, why so focused on Christianity? The world's religious population is majority non-Christian.

You appear to be having some difficulty with reading comprehension. I have not focused on Christianity, and you have no reason to insist that I have. Look at the words I wrote -- not the words you think I might have been trying to hide.

This isn't about Christians trying to cure homosexuality. It was a general question about salvation and the rules of self-examination by the devout across diverse religious groups. As I said, the example could have been murder or torture. Yet oddly, you hone in on homosexuality and Christians.

Perhaps its because, to me, the very idea of "salvation" is 100% meaningless.

Consider what you were doing and feeling when the dinosaurs ruled, or when Gilgamesh was King of Uruk, or when Cheops built the Great Pyramid, Rome conquered most of the known world, then lost it to heathens, then later to Muslims. Consider how you were impacted by the reign of Elizabeth I of England, or Abraham Lincoln. Simply, you have nothing to do with any of that because there was no YOU. You did not exist, period. You didn't feel it, notice it or anything else.

And that will happen again, when you die. "Salvation" will not prevent your death and the absolute extinction of that special "spirit" that makes you you. If you truly want to live a spiritual life, learn that one truth, and then life the only life you have with all the honesty, integrity, joy and full involvement that you can muster up.

Otherwise, you will have wasted it. And that would be a shame -- as it will for all the billions of people chasing after-lives at the expense of the only existence they will ever know. Living a lie can never be "spiritual."

And may I point out something else to you, as well. "Self-examination" isn't something that religion can help you with. It insists on the existence of a truth that you must uphold, no matter what your "self-examination" reveals to you. That is how many of us escaped that trap.

 

[Father Heathen]

Oh, so it's anger at God.

No, it's not "anger at god", but rather finding people's idea of god to be substandard. Even If there is such a being, they are not your sock puppet. Your faith may portray god in such a ridiculous, goofy cartoon fashion, but no actual god is bound to abide some dumb book written by primitive savages.

 

[Father Heathen]

How did you get the idea that this was a thread about Christian intolerance of homosexuality?

Because of the nonsensical equivalencies and preposterous presumptions.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Otherwise, people would just be high on heroin and banging hired donkey prostitutes 24 hours a day...

That's alarming, and even terrifying, that this is what you think would be going on if no one followed your god. But, it's always the religious sorts like Christians saying this, but yet non-theists do just fine. Is it really everyone who needs this god and his "law," or is it Christians that need it to give them reason to not do terrible things? Me, I have no god and I've never done heroin, nor have I ever been with a prostitute, let alone a donkey prostitute. Why would I do those things?

 

[Vinayaka]

The only hell homosexuals have to endure is the hell of hatred towards them for no rational reason.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

That's alarming, and even terrifying, that this is what you think would be going on if no one followed your god. But, it's always the religious sorts like Christians saying this, but yet non-theists do just fine. Is it really everyone who needs this god and his "law," or is it Christians that need it to give them reason to not do terrible things? Me, I have no god and I've never done heroin, nor have I ever been with a prostitute, let alone a donkey prostitute. Why would I do those things?

Fully on your side on this post. It is ceaselessly amazing to me that people who think they behave morally and rightly because of their religious beliefs assume that those of us without those beliefs could not do the same.

Of course, what that assumption really says is that "if I didn't believe in the punishment I'd get from God, I'd certainly do all those horrible things." You and I don't do them simply because we don't want to do them. I'd rather be us.

 

[Father Heathen]

Why would gods set rules, only for their followers to abandon them later, because it was inconvenient for them, and then fail to judge them, as promised?

Or maybe they weren't actually set by god but rather by mere men who presumed to act and speak on god's behalf, and people abandoned them because they were irrational and arbitrary?

The question was whether such people believe in their salvation, even as they commit large portions of their lives towards sexual self-gratification.

Would you considered married heterosexual couples who engage in sexual activity without the intention to reproduce to be self-gratifying deviants?

 

[Grumpuss]

I can't help but notice that you contradicted me, but not @Kemosloby .
It's like the Muslims who don't personally advocate violence, but don't contradict the ones who do, because they all agree that the Qur'an is true.
Tom

What?! Who cares if I respond to him directly?

 

[Kemosloby]

I am not a sinner just because you have a book that says I am.

My book doesn't make you a sinner.

 

[Grumpuss]

You appear to be having some difficulty with reading comprehension. I have not focused on Christianity, and you have no reason to insist that I have. Look at the words I wrote -- not the words you think I might have been trying to hide.

How odd. You keep bringing it up.

Perhaps its because, to me, the very idea of "salvation" is 100% meaningless.

No doubt. Can you at least rationalize that it has some meaning to others?

Consider what you were doing and feeling when the dinosaurs ruled, or when Gilgamesh was King of Uruk, or when Cheops built the Great Pyramid, Rome conquered most of the known world, then lost it to heathens, then later to Muslims. Consider how you were impacted by the reign of Elizabeth I of England, or Abraham Lincoln. Simply, you have nothing to do with any of that because there was no YOU. You did not exist, period. You didn't feel it, notice it or anything else.

And that will happen again, when you die. "Salvation" will not prevent your death and the absolute extinction of that special "spirit" that makes you you. If you truly want to live a spiritual life, learn that one truth, and then life the only life you have with all the honesty, integrity, joy and full involvement that you can muster up.

A rather tangential argument. The concept of an immortal soul doesn't exclude having a limited lifetime on this plane of existence.

Otherwise, you will have wasted it. And that would be a shame -- as it will for all the billions of people chasing after-lives at the expense of the only existence they will ever know. Living a lie can never be "spiritual."

And may I point out something else to you, as well. "Self-examination" isn't something that religion can help you with. It insists on the existence of a truth that you must uphold, no matter what your "self-examination" reveals to you. That is how many of us escaped that trap.

Meditation and prayer is pretty much exclusively about self-examination. One doesn't even need to be religious to do it.

 

[Grumpuss]

That's alarming, and even terrifying, that this is what you think would be going on if no one followed your god. But, it's always the religious sorts like Christians saying this, but yet non-theists do just fine. Is it really everyone who needs this god and his "law," or is it Christians that need it to give them reason to not do terrible things? Me, I have no god and I've never done heroin, nor have I ever been with a prostitute, let alone a donkey prostitute. Why would I do those things?

When did I say one has to follow my god? When did I ever say this was about Christians?

It always seems to be the empty, morally devoid sort who blame others for their own shortcomings, or go through decades of introspection, mental illness and treatment, that have the most vitriol for others' deeply held belief. I understand irritation at proselytizing, but it's not exactly a moral (or pleasant) existence to attack others' philosophies when it doesn't affect your life.

A meaningful existence includes things beyond self-gratification. Some people want to help others. Some people want to raise a family. Some people want to be rich and powerful. But simply building an entire life around sexual identity (regardless of orientation), or getting drunk or high is sad. Even worse is the mock outrage that anyone would ever deem it sad, and then building one's existence about that.

All I asked was if people who are both sexual deviants and devout members of any religion can justify their salvation. Perhaps there are a great deal of people who are honest and fully expect to be eternally damned. If you want to turn this into a discussion about you, or attack Christians, then I suggest you look elsewhere.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

My book doesn't make you a sinner.

It's your only source that proclaims me a sinner. Just because your book says I'm sinner doesn't make me a sinner. The alleged words of your god do not make me a sinner either.
I am without sin, and never again will I allow myself to be burdened and shackled by it. That's for you Christians, and you can keep it.

 

[columbus]

My book doesn't make you a sinner.

Nor did J R R Tolkien's book make Gandalf a wizard.

But it did describe wizards. That doesn't mean that they exist, even if people think that they do after reading the book.
Tom

 

[Grumpuss]

A - "nobody in their right mind can claim to have never sinned"

B - "I am not a sinner just because you have a book that says I am."

A - "My book doesn't make you a sinner."

B - "Just because your book says I'm sinner doesn't make me a sinner... I am without sin, and never again will I allow myself to be burdened and shackled by it."


Someone's not making a whole lot of sense...

 

[MonkeyFire]

Only regard law having to do with Jesus. Remember when Michael speaks no foul when disputing the body of Moses with satan.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Why would you think something as powerful as God would be interested in base sexual pleasures and how many piercings you have in your ding-dong? It's like Patriots fans' thinking that God is making their team win? He doesn't get anything out of it, just because you do.

I sincerely doubt you know for sure if God is fornicating with other same sex gods, hermaphroditic gods, gods with mutilated genitalia, divine beasts or inanimate objects. But feel free to prove me wrong.

Sounds obsessive. But hey, tell me- do you think God would approve of people molesting horses or sodomizing trees, just because some men do?

How exactly does one go about sodomizing a tree?