Are Christians actually worshiping the Father of Jesus?

[Call_of_the_Wild]

My take on it Call is that He says "God" when He is talking to the Jewish religious leaders and when He talks to his Disciples He says "My Father" or "The Father". And when he is talking to the Jewish religious leaders He quotes old Law and prophecy, but when He is taliking to His disciples He for the most part talks about stuff that would "at best" be considered an addition to the old Law. To me what His says seems depends on who He is talking to which is maybe why things can be confusing. When He is talking to His disciples it is like He is talking about a whole different religion than it is when He is talking to the Jewish religious leaders. That is my take on it .


Here is an interesting scripture that seems to approach both at the same time when He was talking to the multitude/people that He had fed with the loaves and fishes the day before: John 6:27, "Do not work for the food that perishes, but work for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man shall give to you, for in Him the Father, "even" God has set His seal." In this scripture the "the Father" and the "even God" seem to be two different things.

Ok, but when he made any mention of "God" or his "Father", was he not referring to the same entity as described in OT scripture? Now in that scripture you give (John 6:27), I guess that would depend on the translation....the NIV renders it as;

27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”

 

[mystic64]

Ok, but when he made any mention of "God" or his "Father", was he not referring to the same entity as described in OT scripture? Now in that scripture you give (John 6:27), I guess that would depend on the translation....the NIV renders it as;

27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”

Very well done Call ! And going to the origional Greek does not solve it either . To be honest with you I didn't really expect to be able to prove the original OP in an absolute sense. And my main interest was to see what the traditional Christian rebutal would be. I do feel though that Lord Jesus made the Old Law obsolete if one is a Christian and I do not actually feel that there are two different "Gods". But at the sametime based on my experience, that if one is a Christian, God the Father of Jesus is a different personality than God the Creator even though they are the same individual.

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

Very well done Call ! And going to the origional Greek does not solve it either . To be honest with you I didn't really expect to be able to prove the original OP in an absolute sense. And my main interest was to see what the traditional Christian rebutal would be. I do feel though that Lord Jesus made the Old Law obsolete if one is a Christian and I do not actually feel that there are two different "Gods". But at the sametime based on my experience, that if one is a Christian, God the Father of Jesus is a different personality than God the Creator even though they are the same individual.

Different personalities? I will have to look in to that, because I can certainly understand why people may feel as if there is a personality crisis involving God, but me personally,I don't have much difficulty reconciling the two, which is God seemly being more strict of a parent and dealing with his children differently during those times than he does now, for whatever reasons he may have had.

I guess I will just have to accept by faith.

 

[mystic64]

Different personalities? I will have to look in to that, because I can certainly understand why people may feel as if there is a personality crisis involving God, but me personally,I don't have much difficulty reconciling the two, which is God seemly being more strict of a parent and dealing with his children differently during those times than he does now, for whatever reasons he may have had.

I guess I will just have to accept by faith.

Call, after spending sixty years exploring God (the Protestant Christian Bible one) on a "one on one" bases there is only one absolute fact and that is, "Faith is the key." Without faith it all become a rocky ride that works out in the end because you develope faith based on experience . Those that start out with faith skip a whole bunch of stuff that those of us that do not start out with faith, because of whatever, end up having to go through.

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

Call, after spending sixty years exploring God (the Protestant Christian Bible one) on a "one on one" bases there is only one absolute fact and that is, "Faith is the key." Without faith it all become a rocky ride that works out in the end because you develope faith based on experience . Those that start out with faith skip a whole bunch of stuff that those of us that do not start out with faith, because of whatever, end up having to go through.

Hahaha good point. What is your take on the Trinity doctrine?

 

[Ingledsva]

Hahaha good point. What is your take on the Trinity doctrine?

I don't know what Mystic64 believes about it.


Jesus never taught it.


Not did he actually claim anywhere in the Bible that he is God.




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[Nakosis]

Christians for the most part seem to be worshiping the God of the Old Testament and not the Father of Jesus. On one hand the Christian God is a loving entity because Lord Jesus said so and on the other hand He is a monster that does not fit the discription that Lord Jesus gave of His Father. Either the old God changed because of Lord Jesus or the Father of Jesus is not the same God as the old God. Either way most of Christianity seems to have gone back to the old God and away from the Father of Lord Jesus.
?

The concept of God evolves over time. I think it safe to say no one today worships the same God the Jesus did and certainly not the God of Judea or the Tribes of Israel or Moses.

The concept of the Trinity came some 300 Years after Jesus. Some people got together with some random thinking and decided it was the Truth. Protestants came along with their ideas about God.

They use the Bible as a prop thinking it ties their beliefs to the past but it doesn't really. Not saying there is or isn't a God but people worship some fictional concept. Why think one version of this concept is any more valid then the other?

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

I don't know what Mystic64 believes about it.


Jesus never taught it.


Not did he actually claim anywhere in the Bible that he is God.

Trinitarians believe otherwise. We believe the doctrine is implied throughout the New Testament.

 

[Pegg]

According to you...


However - It obviously is to ALL.

at the time the christian scriptures were written, all christians were counted to be among the anointed, thats true....they were all being anointed with holy spirit.

But that doesnt mean that 'all mankind' will be forever be anointed with holy spirit and among them in heaven.

Jesus indicated early on that there were two folds of disciple. One he called a 'little flock' and the others he called 'other sheep'

John 10:16 “And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those too I must bring in, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd

 

[mystic64]

Hahaha good point. What is your take on the Trinity doctrine?

eek! Call, I just do not have a streight answer for that one . Some folks maintain that Jesus was the final incarnation of Adam which helps to explain why He called himself the son of man and was refered to as the first begotten son. The gospel of John maintains that Jesus has been around since the beginning of time and would seem to conclude that He is God incarnate although there is not any record of Jesus ever claiming that He was. Jesus said that He would send a Holy Spirit and He did, but He didn't say who's spirit it was. All He said was that it would cleanse, guide, and teach, and that to sin against it was fatal in an immortal sense. My tendency is to separate the Trinity into three separate individuals and to not worry if they are all the same individual or not. And Jesus said, "I am in the Father and the Father is in Me and I am in you." And He said that one needs to be baptized/cleansed by both water and the Spirit. This all could add up to three divine folks and you all becoming one. So from a practical stand point there is no reason why the Trinity isn't One. And there is maybe the possiblity that one and the Trinity can become one which would then make one also a part of the Trinity.

Footnote: My experience as a yogi does effect my approach to things. As a yogi you learn how to step into another and become that other and that an other can step into you and you become that other. Which is why one has to be very careful what they channel .

 

[mystic64]

I don't know what Mystic64 believes about it.


Jesus never taught it.


Not did he actually claim anywhere in the Bible that he is God.




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"What exactly does Mystic64 believe about ?" I don't "believe" anything, yet at the sametime I believe the possibility of everything. And that the object of the game is to remove/eliminate the possibilites that one does not like without, hopefully, losing one creativity because one becomes lost when all that is left is "set pattern" because "set pattern" leads to stagnation and trapped.

 

[mystic64]

The concept of God evolves over time. I think it safe to say no one today worships the same God the Jesus did and certainly not the God of Judea or the Tribes of Israel or Moses.

The concept of the Trinity came some 300 Years after Jesus. Some people got together with some random thinking and decided it was the Truth. Protestants came along with their ideas about God.

They use the Bible as a prop thinking it ties their beliefs to the past but it doesn't really. Not saying there is or isn't a God but people worship some fictional concept. Why think one version of this concept is any more valid then the other?

I agree that God evolves as an conscious entity because if He/She/It didn't then there would be not any creativity and without creativity things lead to stagnation and death. At the sametime actually understanding "God" requires that those that are attempting to understand also need to evolve.

The Bible as a prop: I am safe because My God can whip your God and because my God is going to punish you if you do not believe as I do. The Bible says so.

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

eek! Call, I just do not have a streight answer for that one . Some folks maintain that Jesus was the final incarnation of Adam which helps to explain why He called himself the son of man and was refered to as the first begotten son.

But would being the "final Adam" negate the Jesus from being God?

The gospel of John maintains that Jesus has been around since the beginning of time and would seem to conclude that He is God incarnate although there is not any record of Jesus ever claiming that He was.

Probably because him claiming to be God would be counter-productive...remember, they wanted to stone him for claiming to be the Son of God (if though the scripture indicates that even the claim of "son of god" required a stoning death). So if they wanted to stone him for merely claiming to be the son of god, then him claiming to actually be God would be even more of a radical claim.

Jesus said that He would send a Holy Spirit and He did, but He didn't say who's spirit it was. All He said was that it would cleanse, guide, and teach, and that to sin against it was fatal in an immortal sense.

Jesus didn't, but does scripture tell us who the Holy Spirit is? Peter claimed that lying to the Holy Spirit was the same as lying to God (Acts 5:1-11).

My tendency is to separate the Trinity into three separate individuals and to not worry if they are all the same individual or not.

Well, if you do that, then you would be doing exactly what Trinitarians do lol. That is actually the Trinity doctrine, that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three seperate individuals who all share the nature and title of "God". The Trinity is NOT the view that God is one being with three different masks which he wears whenever he sees fit, although some people believe in this view, which is called modalism.

And Jesus said, "I am in the Father and the Father is in Me and I am in you." And He said that one needs to be baptized/cleansed by both water and the Spirit. This all could add up to three divine folks and you all becoming one. So from a practical stand point there is no reason why the Trinity isn't One. And there is maybe the possiblity that one and the Trinity can become one which would then make one also a part of the Trinity.

I guess the viewpoints in this regard is...infinite lol.

Footnote: My experience as a yogi does effect my approach to things. As a yogi you learn how to step into another and become that other and that an other can step into you and you become that other. Which is why one has to be very careful what they channel .

Yogi...Mario, and Luigi?

 

[Ingledsva]

Trinitarians believe otherwise. We believe the doctrine is implied throughout the New Testament.

This idea has been brought up here, line by line - and has been disproved every time.


He does not say he is God, nor anything about being part of a trinity.



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[Ingledsva]

at the time the christian scriptures were written, all christians were counted to be among the anointed, thats true....they were all being anointed with holy spirit.

But that doesnt mean that 'all mankind' will be forever be anointed with holy spirit and among them in heaven.

Jesus indicated early on that there were two folds of disciple. One he called a 'little flock' and the others he called 'other sheep'

John 10:16 “And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those too I must bring in, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd

You have taken what I wrote out of context. You need to go back and read the thread.


Gal 3:26 For ye are all the sons/children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.



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[Call_of_the_Wild]

This idea has been brought up here, line by line - and has been disproved every time.


He does not say he is God, nor anything about being part of a trinity.



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So if Paris Hilton never said that she is the daughter of Rick Hilton, it follows that she is not the daugther of Rick Hilton? Faulty logic.

 

[Ingledsva]

So if Paris Hilton never said that she is the daughter of Rick Hilton, it follows that she is not the daugther of Rick Hilton? Faulty logic.

Again you are trying to compare live humans which we can check out - with invisible beings.


It does not compute.



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[Call_of_the_Wild]

Again you are trying to compare live humans which we can check out - with invisible beings.


It does not compute.

No, I am comparing the faulty logic that was associated with your post with similar faulty reasoning of my own (as an example). The point is a simple one; just because Jesus never claimed to be God does not mean that he is not God. What I find amazing is that you keep saying "Jesus never claimed to be God" as if that is supposed to be this big defeater of the Trinity doctrine, when it isn't, not in the least bit.

 

[Ingledsva]

No, I am comparing the faulty logic that was associated with your post with similar faulty reasoning of my own (as an example). The point is a simple one; just because Jesus never claimed to be God does not mean that he is not God. What I find amazing is that you keep saying "Jesus never claimed to be God" as if that is supposed to be this big defeater of the Trinity doctrine, when it isn't, not in the least bit.

LOL! No! Your logic is just faulty.


I think if he was God, or part of a trinity he would have taught that.



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[loverOfTruth]

So if Paris Hilton never said that she is the daughter of Rick Hilton, it follows that she is not the daugther of Rick Hilton? Faulty logic.

How silly ... no one cares about Paris Hilton - so it really doesn't matter. But if someone is in a position to deserve the status of being the Almighty's Son - he must at least claim so. But not only did he not claim that, rather his teaching was quite contradictory to such claims.

I would ask you to listen to the following lecture by Dr. Jerald F. Dirks that shows even early christians had quite a different take on the Divinity of Jesus(pbuh). Dr. Dirks has a Master of Divinity from Harvard Divinity School.
[youtube]2m4KW-dysKk[/youtube]
From Jesus to Muhammad: A History of Early Christianity - YouTube

Peace.