Are Christians actually worshiping the Father of Jesus?

[kjw47]

So again it appears you are wrong Mr. Kjw47.

I am not wrong---- that is the reason behind the separating of the little flock from the great crowd of other sheep--even though one flock--2 different promises.

 

[Ingledsva]

I am not wrong---- that is the reason behind the separating of the little flock from the great crowd of other sheep--even though one flock--2 different promises.

BALONEY! Go back and re-read what I wrote.


The 144,000 are from the Hebrew tribes.



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[mystic64]

But who would supposedly authorize that switch since Torah says that the Law is "forever" and "perpetual"?



There's a lot more to Torah than just history and prophecy, and if there's anything that it centers more around it's the Law.



I really don't get into this.

I don't think that it would be considered an authorized switch by anybody relative to people . Most of Christianity considereds the foundation law for the Jewish faith also the foundation law for Christians and they also consider it forever and perpetual. So the authorization would have to come from Heaven/the Father of Jesus if one believes that Jesus died and was reserected and thus fulfilling the Law. Ultimately, if one believes in the death and reserection as a fulfillment of the Law as prophecied, then a new is created that replaces the old. God the Creator becomes the Father of Jesus that is in Heaven with a whole different set of worship rules and rewards than were present for the worship of the old testament God.

Which is why I am presenting the argument that the scribes and Pharisees of Christianity are using the Old Testament to maintain their position and power and to cause and encourage Christians to not be worshiping the Father of Jesus. They are instead encouraging their followers to worship the Old Testament God that was before Jesus in the name of Jesus instead of the Father of Jesus in the name of Jesus. These scribes and Pharisees also have used the Old Law to turn Christianity into a money making business both past and present. Which was not what Jesus was preaching either. These scribes and Pharisees are creating the "lost" in Christianity just like they created the "lost" in Jewism in the day of Jesus.

 

[mystic64]

That is not true as I have shown in the other thread. And you don't even have to look deeper in the history or data - just look at the current occupation and the settlements.


Please don't twist my words. No one should be allowed to immigrate to a land by taking someone else's land by force.


Those pockets don't equate to modern day Israel - neither the occupied territories.



Following video is clear proof against that statement, where the founder of the settler movement clearly admits that they came here to take the land and that's how it is going to be - no Palestinian state : [youtube]uz8_qzdDdM4[/youtube]
Stone Cold Justice Four Corners - YouTube

This is also my last post regarding this issue in this thread.
Peace.

The Jewish nation is fighting for it's life and you LoverofTruth would have it just capitulate and die, as the Arabs would also like it do. The only difference between you and the Arabs is that the Arabs also want everyone that carries Jewish blood to die also. Sheesh.

 

[kjw47]

BALONEY! Go back and re-read what I wrote.


The 144,000 are from the Hebrew tribes.



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Gods word clearly teaches--the Israelites house has been cut off( no longer Gods chosen) Matt 23: 37-38)--- the reference to Israel is meaning---spiritual Israel--meaning Gods chosen. Not literal Israel.

 

[Ingledsva]

BALONEY! Go back and re-read what I wrote.


The 144,000 are from the Hebrew tribes.

Gods word clearly teaches--the Israelites house has been cut off( no longer Gods chosen) Matt 23: 37-38)--- the reference to Israel is meaning---spiritual Israel--meaning Gods chosen. Not literal Israel.

LOL! Baloney!


It specifically names the original tribes and how many from each of THEM will make up this 144,000.


No "spiritual Israel" in that text.




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[kjw47]

LOL! Baloney!


It specifically names the original tribes and how many from each of THEM will make up this 144,000.


No "spiritual Israel" in that text.




*

In rev--2 of the tribes are not the original 12 tribes--read it again.

 

[Ingledsva]

LOL! Baloney!


It specifically names the original tribes and how many from each of THEM will make up this 144,000.


No "spiritual Israel" in that text.

In rev--2 of the tribes are not the original 12 tribes--read it again.

They do not say what you are claiming. They do not say the 144,000 are "spiritual" Jews. That is baloney.


There is no Tribe of Joseph. Ephraim and Manasseh are sometimes referred to as the two half-tribes of Joseph, but they were called House of Joseph (Beit Yosef,) as Joseph is not actually one of the twelve tribes.


Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Rev 7:5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

Rev 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

Rev 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

Rev 7:8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.


Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;



NOTE that AFTER THIS. They specifically tell us the 144,000 are from the Tribes of Israel, - and then tell us AFTER THIS - a group from ALL NATIONS!


As I said earlier, these later Christians got their information wrong. They also left out the Tribes of Dan and Ephraim. I'm guessing they were confused by Ephraim being associated to Joseph, and then gave us an incorrect tribe of Joseph.


"The twelve tribes are as follows: Reuben, Simeon, Judah, Issachar, Zebulun, Benjamin, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Ephraim and Manasseh."


https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/tribes.html


Also note - with Levi this would make 13 tribes. Levi was set aside for a special purpose, and is not generally counted, leaving 12 tribes.


You could perhaps make Ephraim and Manasseh into one Tribe of Joseph, and then make Levi the twelfth - but you cannot have Ephraim and Manasseh and Joseph, together, - as Joseph is not one of the twelve tribes


These later Christians are confused.


Perhaps one of our followers of Judaism could clear this up a little better, for us?


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[loverOfTruth]

The Jewish nation is fighting for it's life and you LoverofTruth would have it just capitulate and die, as the Arabs would also like it do. The only difference between you and the Arabs is that the Arabs also want everyone that carries Jewish blood to die also. Sheesh.

Right - your typical baseless assumptions and claims without an iota of evidence.

And you said what - Israel fighting for it's life - from who ? A five year old ? Nowhere else on the face of this planet, a five year old gets taken to prison by a military personnel. How low can you go ? Really disgusting. Watch the video to really know who's planning to annihilate who.

[youtube]uz8_qzdDdM4[/youtube]
Stone Cold Justice Four Corners - YouTube

 

[mystic64]

Right - your typical baseless assumptions and claims without an iota of evidence.

Sir, your evidence is not real just like your bible evidence is not real. Your evidence is twisted by your bias. You do a wonderful job of "spin doctoring" to support your bias, but what you are calling hard fast evidence is delusion that fools only those that have your same bias.

 

[mystic64]

Right - your typical baseless assumptions and claims without an iota of evidence.

And what is funny is that the promise of a Jewish nation was bait for a trap. Nobody wanted the Jewish refugees in their country so under the guise of a Jewish nation the world community in power at the time stuck them in the middle of the extremely hostile Arabic people knowing full well that the Arabs would dispose of them and the blame for their demise would fall on the Arabs and not on the world community that was and still is in power. I love it , because things did not go the way that they expected them too. The Jewish folks are a tuff bunch of folks and very smart. Where you LoverofTruth have hatred or dislike, I have admiration.

 

[Ingledsva]

And what is funny is that the promise of a Jewish nation was bait for a trap. Nobody wanted the Jewish refugees in their country so under the guise of a Jewish nation the world community in power at the time stuck them in the middle of the extremely hostile Arabic people knowing full well that the Arabs would dispose of them and the blame for their demise would fall on the Arabs and not on the world community that was and still is in power. I love it , because things did not go the way that they expected them too. The Jewish folks are a tuff bunch of folks and very smart. Where you LoverofTruth have hatred or dislike, I have admiration.

An interesting take on things - and it could very well be true.



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[Call_of_the_Wild]

After a lifetime of reading the Protestant Christian version of the Bible it has come to my mind that the Father that Lord Jesus was talking about is not the same God that most Christians are worshiping. Most Christians are worshiping the God of the Old Testament and not the Father of Lord Jesus. Lord Jesus said that He came to replace the Old Law and that the new commandments were to love the Father and one's neighbor. He also said that the only sin that can not be forgiven is the sin against the Holy Spirit. Lord Jesus also claimed that His Father was a loving entity. The God of the Old Testament is not a loving and forgiving entity and seems to be pretty fussy about things.

Christians for the most part seem to be worshiping the God of the Old Testament and not the Father of Jesus. On one hand the Christian God is a loving entity because Lord Jesus said so and on the other hand He is a monster that does not fit the discription that Lord Jesus gave of His Father. Either the old God changed because of Lord Jesus or the Father of Jesus is not the same God as the old God. Either way most of Christianity seems to have gone back to the old God and away from the Father of Lord Jesus.

?

Was Jesus talking about the God of the old testament when he was constantly quoting old testament scripture?

 

[loverOfTruth]

Sir, your evidence is not real just like your bible evidence is not real. Your evidence is twisted by your bias. You do a wonderful job of "spin doctoring" to support your bias, but what you are calling hard fast evidence is delusion that fools only those that have your same bias.

Wow...really? What a U turn from your previous statement about biblical evidence ...

So my beloved opponent we now enter into the scripture and verse phase of our argument. ... Anyway, I know approximately where the scriptures are that support my side of the argument relative to your questions, but hunting them up is going to slow me down a little bit.

I thought you were supposed to refute my arguments with scripture not your once again 'baseless claim without any evidence' such as my 'evidence is not real'. What a cheap shot without any substance.

And by the way, that documentary on how Israeli military chokes the life out of Palestinian children, it is neither made by Arabs nor Muslims. Moreover, it has testimonies from Israeli Jews as well as Israeli military personnel. So you can call it 'biased and without evidence' all you want. But any rational person can see through it.

 

[kjw47]

Was Jesus talking about the God of the old testament when he was constantly quoting old testament scripture?

The God in the ot is the same God in the nt--he didn't change. Jesus' God--John 20:17, rev 3:12= his Father-YHWH(Jehovah) a single being God.

 

[mystic64]

An interesting take on things - and it could very well be true.



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Thank you Ingle .

 

[mystic64]

Was Jesus talking about the God of the old testament when he was constantly quoting old testament scripture?

My take on it Call is that He says "God" when He is talking to the Jewish religious leaders and when He talks to his Disciples He says "My Father" or "The Father". And when he is talking to the Jewish religious leaders He quotes old Law and prophecy, but when He is taliking to His disciples He for the most part talks about stuff that would "at best" be considered an addition to the old Law. To me what His says seems depends on who He is talking to which is maybe why things can be confusing. When He is talking to His disciples it is like He is talking about a whole different religion than it is when He is talking to the Jewish religious leaders. That is my take on it .


Here is an interesting scripture that seems to approach both at the same time when He was talking to the multitude/people that He had fed with the loaves and fishes the day before: John 6:27, "Do not work for the food that perishes, but work for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man shall give to you, for in Him the Father, "even" God has set His seal." In this scripture the "the Father" and the "even God" seem to be two different things.

 

[mystic64]

Wow...really? What a U turn from your previous statement about biblical evidence ...

I thought you were supposed to refute my arguments with scripture not your once again 'baseless claim without any evidence' such as my 'evidence is not real'. What a cheap shot without any substance.

And by the way, that documentary on how Israeli military chokes the life out of Palestinian children, it is neither made by Arabs nor Muslims. Moreover, it has testimonies from Israeli Jews as well as Israeli military personnel. So you can call it 'biased and without evidence' all you want. But any rational person can see through it.

The US military did pretty much the same thing in Vietnam. When one is surrounded by a population of people of all ages that want to kill you and are trying to kill you, sometimes one loses it. And what do you think that the life expectancy of any Jewish child would be if the majority of Arabs had their way. The Arabs let and encourage their young boys to fight and harass the troups, maybe the Israel folks should allow their young boys to handle the problem? I am sure that they would be more than willing and able to it and that way it wouldn't be adults against childern.

I did a quick review of the quoted words of Jesus in the first four books of the New Testament and arguing my case is going to be a bit tricky, but I think it might be done. And it all starts here: Matthew 5:17,18, 20; (17) "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets, I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill."; (18) "For truly I say to you, untill Heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, untill all is accomplished."; (20) "For I say onto you, that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter the kingdome of heaven." New American Standard, "The Hebrew-Greek Key Study Bible", Edited by Spiros Zodhiates Th. D. (which is the bible I am using).

According to this scripture, Jesus seems to be upset at the scribes and Pharisees . And somewhere, and I seemed to have lost it for now, Jesus said that He came to save the "lost" of Israel which He seems to be blaiming the scribes and Pharisees for the "lost" getting lost. So apparently He didn't have a problem with the Law and His purpose seems to have been to free the Jewish people, at least to begin with, from the yoke of their religious leaders. So I appologise for what I said about the Old Testament and for what I said about the Old Testament God. But the question still is, "Are Christians actually worshiping the Father of Jesus?"

Jesus was operating out of a Pharisee paradigm, as was Paul, and it appears that the main concern over the Law dealt with the issue of whether the entire Law was important or, as Jesus said, all of the Law relates to the love of God and the love of man? Even though one can argue that all of the Law can be summed up with those two Commandments, it's really sort of a "stretch" since many of the Commandments do not at least directly relate to either, such as the various kosher Laws.

But what we see happening in the early church was a gradual walking away from the Law, and there had to be a foundation for that, and to me the only foundation that could have had that degree of influence had to come from Jesus either directly or indirectly.

Anyhow, no matter how we may look at this, one thing is for certain, and that is that the apostolic church walked away from the Law, with the kosher Laws probably being the first to go with Peter's vision.

The below and the above are Metis' conribution to my argument:

Matthew 21:43: “The kingdom of God taken away from you and given to another.”

Luke 16:16: “The Law and the prophets were in force until John.”


John 8:44: “The father you spring from is the devil… The Jews answered… .”


Romans 6:14: “Sin will no longer have power over you; you are under grace, not under the Law.”

7:6: “Now we are released from the Law.”

10:4: “Christ is the end of the Law.”

11:20: They were cut off because of their unbelief and you are there because of faith.”

14:20: “All foods are clean.”


I Corinthians 7:19: “Circumcision counts for nothing.”


Galatians 3:10: “All who depend on the observance of the Law… are under a curse.”

5:2: “If you have yourself circumcised, Christ will be of no use to you.”

5:4 “Any of you who seek your justification in the Law have severed yourself from Christ and fallen from God’s favor.”

6:15: “It means nothing whether you are circumcised or not.”


Ephesians 2:15: “In his own flesh he abolished the Law with its commands and precepts.”


Hebrews 7:18: “The former Commandment (I.e. priests according to the order of Melchizedek) has been annulled because of its weakness and uselessness.”

8:7: “If that first Covenant had been faultless, there would have been no place for a second one.”

8:13: “When he says ‘a new covenant’, he declares the first one obsolete. And what has become obsolete and has grown old is close to disappearing.”

10:9: “In other words, he takes away the first Covenant to establish the second.”

But LoverofTruth I think that you missed it.

 

[loverOfTruth]

The US military did pretty much the same thing in Vietnam. When one is surrounded by a population of people of all ages that want to kill you and are trying to kill you, sometimes one loses it. And what do you think that the life expectancy of any Jewish child would be if the majority of Arabs had their way. The Arabs let and encourage their young boys to fight and harass the troups, maybe the Israel folks should allow their young boys to handle the problem? I am sure that they would be more than willing and able to it and that way it wouldn't be adults against childern.

Only fools and bigots believe that a 5 yr old is out to kill you. No discussion can proceed with such level of ignorance and hatred. I think we better end the discussion here.

The below and the above are Metis' conribution to my argument:



But LoverofTruth I think that you missed it.

I did not miss anything - you are just trying to cover it with some baloney now. Why would Metis's debate with you would be answer to my questions from you? Plus, they don't counter my arguments at all. Go read my posts, if you are serious. Here is what you stated to me last in here: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3690677-post63.html

...Now I have to go back and study LoverofTruth's questions and study what it is that I said in the OP. ...

And I didn't hear back from you regarding the biblical debate after that until your final baseless comment that is 'your evidence is not real'. Good try.

Peace.

 

[mystic64]

Only fools and bigots believe that a 5 yr old is out to kill you. No discussion can proceed with such level of ignorance and hatred. I think we better end the discussion here.




I did not miss anything - you are just trying to cover it with some baloney now. Why would Metis's debate with you would be answer to my questions from you? Plus, they don't counter my arguments at all. Go read my posts, if you are serious. Here is what you stated to me last in here: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3690677-post63.html


And I didn't hear back from you regarding the biblical debate after that until your final baseless comment that is 'your evidence is not real'. Good try.

Peace.

Ok , LoverofTruth you win! All is well .