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Apathy and Wu Wei

Scarlett Wampus

psychonaut
How is apathy distinguished from Wu Wei?

Seeking for purpose in life is a major theme in much of western culture. Whether its divinely granted, a product of philosophical enquiry or otherwise its generally seen as a key to a meaningful existence. Contentment comes from finding and living out one's purpose.

No doubt this works for many but the classical Taoist philosophers took a different approach. For them contentment was best found not as a result of fulfilling a purpose but from giving it up. Striving to find meaning and achieve things was regarded as a form of confusion that would lead to disharmony and actually prevent the greatest engagement in appropriate & meaningful action.

This has to be one of the hardest things to understand in Taoism. Again, the question I want to ask is how is apathy distinguished from Wu Wei?
 

Kungfuzed

Student Nurse
How is apathy distinguished from Wu Wei?

Seeking for purpose in life is a major theme in much of western culture. Whether its divinely granted, a product of philosophical enquiry or otherwise its generally seen as a key to a meaningful existence. Contentment comes from finding and living out one's purpose.

No doubt this works for many but the classical Taoist philosophers took a different approach. For them contentment was best found not as a result of fulfilling a purpose but from giving it up. Striving to find meaning and achieve things was regarded as a form of confusion that would lead to disharmony and actually prevent the greatest engagement in appropriate & meaningful action.

This has to be one of the hardest things to understand in Taoism. Again, the question I want to ask is how is apathy distinguished from Wu Wei?
From what you are describing Wu Wei is intentionally not doing what you want. Apathy is just not caring to begin with. Wu Wei sounds more like self denial than apathy.
 

Master Vigil

Well-Known Member
Wu Wei as I understand it, is a total focus of now. The stream (yeah again with the stream) doesn't worry about where it's going, where it's been, how it's getting where it's going, etc... But it gets there effortlessly.

If we constantly focus on now, and make every now the best it can be. The future will eventually be a "now" and will inevitably be the best it can be. But if you are continually worry about the future, or the past, etc... The future will inevitably be worse because every "now" leading up until that future will have been worse.

Does that make sense? So in answering to your question, Wu Wei is certainly not apathy, or procrastination, or laziness, etc...
 

lilithu

The Devil's Advocate
How is apathy distinguished from Wu Wei?

Seeking for purpose in life is a major theme in much of western culture. Whether its divinely granted, a product of philosophical enquiry or otherwise its generally seen as a key to a meaningful existence. Contentment comes from finding and living out one's purpose.

No doubt this works for many but the classical Taoist philosophers took a different approach. For them contentment was best found not as a result of fulfilling a purpose but from giving it up. Striving to find meaning and achieve things was regarded as a form of confusion that would lead to disharmony and actually prevent the greatest engagement in appropriate & meaningful action.

This has to be one of the hardest things to understand in Taoism. Again, the question I want to ask is how is apathy distinguished from Wu Wei?
I do not take wu wei to be apathy. What you describe as "giving up purpose" I would describe as "giving up ego." That doesn't mean there is no purpose. The purpose is contentment. harmony.

I am sure you know that wu wei does not mean doing nothing, but rather it means not disturbing. For example, in surfing, the goal is to ride the wave. When it is done well it appears as if the person is "doing nothing," just being carried along by the crest of the wave. And yet we know it's not that easy. If the person does not feel the wave, isn't one with the wave, doesn't follow where the wave leads, he or she will crash. If one doesn't give up ego but rather attempts to drive the wave, one will crash.

wu wei is riding the wave. Apathy is sitting at home when the surf is up. :cool:
 

Scarlett Wampus

psychonaut
I do not take wu wei to be apathy. What you describe as "giving up purpose" I would describe as "giving up ego." That doesn't mean there is no purpose. The purpose is contentment. harmony.
Hmm. Perhaps giving up purpose is equivalent to giving up ego but they're different flavours of the same detachment ice-cream. Uh, my metaphors are awful.

But anyway, the thing is I really feel it makes no sense to ascribe purpose to Tao, including contentment and harmony. It just so happens that giving up having the purpose of contentment and harmony tends to make those things more likely. So you see there is a massive difference between our positions. :D

More verbiage to explain my thinking: Giving something up to gain it, or something thereabouts is a classic Taoist principle and bares some relation to the "invest in loss" technique of Tai Chi Chu'an. Several people I've known who are fascinated by Taoism have either talked about explicitly or employed a kind of technique that strikes a chord with this. They either fell into it by accident or cultivated it over time and namely it involves dissolving purpose, meaning, value, god(s), decision making, etc. in such a way that they sink into the subconscious where they slowly coagulate together in ways that aren't possible by holding them up in the conscious mind.

Hidden from view (obviously this is hypothetical) but nevertheless potentially immanent as intuitive impulses and impressions the Taoist cultivating this way learns to follow (or rather, fall into) the 'mystery' and, with a diminishing sense of control & focus, often finds that their life becomes more and more integrated with deep a sense of meaning and purpose emerging out of that regardless!

A classic outward symptom of this approach is to find that all one's plans, efforts and thoughts go absolutely nowhere (and quickly!) such that it seems like there is nothing but failure (even if one has already chosen to 'drop out'). In fact it can make someone feel very apathetic to begin with! Why bother, hmm? But when one looks back at what has actually taken place in its possible to see that great opportunities arose, skills blossomed and things changed for the better where, when and with an ease that one least expected them to. This is Te: mysterious and dynamic virtue/power of the Tao.

It might sound a bit crazy but I swear I've seen many people going this route and also had enough experience of it myself. Its a real path and is similar in some ways to Buddhist approaches but has a uniqueness to its philosophy that is very much Taoist.

One short snap of what its like is when we feel that nothing we can do, or can't do, will make any change to our sense of worth - even that everything we do or say is pretentious somehow. Following from this joy and goodness come welling up for no reason at all.

No reason, no purpose, no meaning and yet having the experience of all three of these simultaneously without trace. That's what its like. To put it another way its the experience is of finding oneself to be a better moral being after letting go of any notion that one should be. Its a gamble - that not trying to be good will actually turn out to be good. To me its about here that the distinction between apathy and apophatic mysticism can be found: apathy doesn't usually require enormous commitment, concentration and courage in dropping social expectations and personal desires.
 

ChrisP

Veteran Member
Wu Wei as I understand it, is a total focus of now. The stream (yeah again with the stream) doesn't worry about where it's going, where it's been, how it's getting where it's going, etc... But it gets there effortlessly.

If we constantly focus on now, and make every now the best it can be. The future will eventually be a "now" and will inevitably be the best it can be. But if you are continually worry about the future, or the past, etc... The future will inevitably be worse because every "now" leading up until that future will have been worse.

Does that make sense? So in answering to your question, Wu Wei is certainly not apathy, or procrastination, or laziness, etc...

So... Don't worry be happy? :D
 

lilithu

The Devil's Advocate
Hmm. Perhaps giving up purpose is equivalent to giving up ego but they're different flavours of the same detachment ice-cream. Uh, my metaphors are awful.
Yup. :yes:


But anyway, the thing is I really feel it makes no sense to ascribe purpose to Tao, including contentment and harmony. It just so happens that giving up having the purpose of contentment and harmony tends to make those things more likely. So you see there is a massive difference between our positions. :D
Not really. There was a question posed in the Buddhist DIR related to this. In order to realize nibbana, we have to rid ourself of all attachment. But the desire to realize nibbana is in itself an attachment. So aren't Buddhists in a impossible position?

And the answer is, not really. You start with a purpose and because of that you practice. With practice, you realize that your purpose is based on ignorance, so you revise your purpose. And practice some more. And then realize that your revised goal is also based on ignorance... And so it goes. After all, one can't be expected to "know" before one starts.
 

robtex

Veteran Member
I always interpreted wu wei as effortless doing that results from working within the flow of the Tao. Maybe things like:

Driving the speed of traffic on the highway requires less effort than dodging or weaving in traffic to go faster, or hugging the slow lane to go slower than the flow for example.

or,

Stopping reading because you are tired and realize you can't process the information irregardless of what deadline you are driving.

or

I am 5 9 and 165---so for me applying wu wei is realizing I have no more aptitude in physical endeavors that are not strength competitive by design like body building or american football but instead ones that have mixed attributes or rely more on coordination which I seem to have an overabundance of.

I may have misread what yall read but within the Tao I understand the world is in motion and your motion is either congruent to it or not congruent to it---with or not with the Tao and when you are intune with the Tao Wu Wei is the act of effortless effort.
 

lilithu

The Devil's Advocate
I always interpreted wu wei as effortless doing that results from working within the flow of the Tao. Maybe things like:

Driving the speed of traffic on the highway requires less effort than dodging or weaving in traffic to go faster, or hugging the slow lane to go slower than the flow for example.
....
I may have misread what yall read but within the Tao I understand the world is in motion and your motion is either congruent to it or not congruent to it---with or not with the Tao and when you are intune with the Tao Wu Wei is the act of effortless effort.
Yes, I would agree with that completely.

Hence, I do not equate wu wei with apathy.
 

Scarlett Wampus

psychonaut
I may have misread what yall read but within the Tao I understand the world is in motion and your motion is either congruent to it or not congruent to it---with or not with the Tao and when you are intune with the Tao Wu Wei is the act of effortless effort.
Sometimes I've heard Wu Wei explained as the path of least resistance. Then, of course, it matters what exactly the path is and that's something that is only understood after walking it.

I guess that keys in with what Lilithu said.

There is a great book called 'Hare Brain, Tortoise Mind' that is indirectly relevant but nevertheless very relevant to all this. The author, Guy Claxton, argues that research into cognitive science has shown that patience and being open to confusion is a precursor to more efficient in the long run and effectively leads to "wisdom". What I gleam from that is that the path of least resistance might be quite contrary to what might seem easy or quick.
 

zenzero

Its only a Label
Friend Scarlett,
Here too the same question.
Wu Wei can be understood and acted only after that realisation.
Allow the mind to rest as that itself is resisting you from getting back to existence.
Love & rgds
 

Francine

Well-Known Member
Sometimes I've heard Wu Wei explained as the path of least resistance. Then, of course, it matters what exactly the path is and that's something that is only understood after walking it.

The path of least resistance implies a type of goal-oriented action that approaches no action as closely as possible, as if it was the choice of a lazy man. But Wu Wei is not lack of action. Wu wei is a type of effortless action that doesn't come from an egotistical desire to reach a specific goal. Wu Wei is like a sailboat following wherever the wind goes.
 

zenzero

Its only a Label
Friends,
Francine is right.
simply put in a given circumstances one acts as per the response that is needed that moment.
eg. there is a road accident, you witness it and without any thought take the injured to the hospital or call 999 /108 etc and wait for them to provide professional help and then you are on your way without much affected by what you did; just being a witness to it all including your actions.
Tai-Chi is based on the same principle.
Love & rgds
 
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