Btw his question is interesting and makes reflect.OOOHhhhhh....
Wouldn't it be the same way as someone of Jewish decent believes in the Exodus and says it is true even though they didn't witness it either?
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Btw his question is interesting and makes reflect.OOOHhhhhh....
Wouldn't it be the same way as someone of Jewish decent believes in the Exodus and says it is true even though they didn't witness it either?
Speaking of the III century...by the time of Diocletian, you can comprehend how those ancient Romans were tired of the pagan morals and decided to convert to the Religion of Love.The first century Christians, unlike today, were granted to perform miracles, for the very reason of proving to the Jews that the Christians had Jehovah God's backing. The miracles died off after the first century because there was no longer a need for God to establish that he had indeed moved his blessing to the Christian congregation, Christ's followers.
Miracles aren't necessary to prove anything. It is given to false prophets also to be able to do miracles to test the nation:
Deut: 13:2-5,
If there will arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of a dream, and he gives you a sign or a wonder,
and the sign or the wonder of which he spoke to you happens, [and he] says, "Let us go after other gods which you have not known, and let us worship them,"
you shall not heed the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream; for the Lord, your God, is testing you, to know whether you really love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul.
You shall follow the Lord, your God, fear Him, keep His commandments, heed His voice, worship Him, and cleave to Him.
Naturally I disagree, but I don't want to derail the thread. Quoting the CT won't help here since the thrust of the thread is exactly that - how can you trust them?True prophets of God had to meet three basic qualifications. They had to (1) speak in the name of God—which a false prophet who knew the Hebrew name of God would improperly presume to do; (2) the things they foretold would have to come true—which in the case of false prophets might happen either by coincidence or demonic manipulation; and (3) their prophesying had to be in harmony with God’s revealed Word and commandments put in writing up to their time.—Deut. 13:1-4; 18:20-22.
Everything Jesus spoke of us from Jehovah's mouth. Why do people today still follow the belief he did not come from God?
Jesus said to the Jewish religious leaders:
"You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a murderer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie. 45 Because I, on the other hand, tell you the truth, you do not believe me. 46 Who of you convicts me of sin? If I speak truth, why is it that you do not believe me? 47 The one who is from God listens to the sayings of God. This is why you do not listen, because you are not from God.”-John 8:44-47.
How aptly he told those religious hypocrites:
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you travel over sea and dry land to make one proselyte, and when he becomes one, you make him a subject for Ge·henʹna twice as much so as yourselves."-Matthew 23:15.
Naturally I disagree, but I don't want to derail the thread. Quoting the CT won't help here since the thrust of the thread is exactly that - how can you trust them?
so by all that one could say this implies the species of man has those who will have this kind of aptitude, "dreamer' or prophet....basically a soothsayer of shaman, pop up demographically, and this is an office for which those so picked by whatever fates decide such things, must be tested with a simple ping to assay veracity of their message they are "picked" to channel or manifest.Miracles aren't going to prove anything. It is given to false prophets also to be able to do miracles to test the nation:
Deut: 13:2-5,
If there will arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of a dream, and he gives you a sign or a wonder,
and the sign or the wonder of which he spoke to you happens, [and he] says, "Let us go after other gods which you have not known, and let us worship them,"
you shall not heed the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream; for the Lord, your God, is testing you, to know whether you really love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul.
You shall follow the Lord, your God, fear Him, keep His commandments, heed His voice, worship Him, and cleave to Him.
Ordinary people have lives to live and put their trust in the relevant experts, as we all, every day, on a multitude of things. If those experts turn out to be wrong, it is hardly the fault of those who rely on them for not spotting the flaw.In theory I don't completely disagree with you because the Talmud does teach that real idolatry doesn't exist anymore.
But from another angle I think I disagree with you. If G-d says, "that thing over there, I really don't like it", it's up to man to do his utmost to avoid it. Now, if the discussion was about someone who said, "ok G-d doesn't like idolatry, so I better be real careful about it" and then he looks at his own beliefs and evaluates whether there might be a possibility that he has idolatrous beliefs so he objectively scrutinizes all the possibilities and comes to the unequivocal conclusion that he's in the clear. Then yes, I can agree that there's been an honest error. How many people do you think have done that?
Look Ken, your definitely adding your own interpretation to this passage because while the passage does differentiate between the current covenant and the new one, it doesn't anywhere state the the difference will be in the content of the covenant, but in the way the covenant is to be accessed. That's the only difference the passage here described.I don't quite agree... but more importantly, there are a group Jewish writers that don't agree:
Jeremiah 31 “The days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah. 32 It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them, ” declares the LORD.
It very specifically separates the Covenant of Moses established in the Exodus and the New Covenant as confirmed by the Hebrew writer.
Hebrews 8:God finds fault with them when he says: “The days are surely coming, says the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;9not like the covenant that I made with their ancestors, on the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; for they did not continue in my covenant, and so I had no concern for them, says the Lord.10This is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord
And again
Jeremiah 31: 33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time,” declares the LORD. “I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
Hebrews 10:16 “This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds.”
and by default by Jewish John:
1 John 2: 27 As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. (because it is written in our hearts) But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.
Certainly not all so called truths can be correct.
There's a bit of denialism from you. Half the NT relies on the Tanach for context. The NT very clearly bases itself on the Tanach, so it's clearly not irrelevant. To put it another way - can you make the claim that Jewish people were not commanded by G-d on Mt. Sinai to not serve anyone but Him? That's relevant, because that means a Jewish person will have to have stronger evidence than the national revelation at Mt. Sinai in order to serve anyone else.
as I recall there is a passage in the bible that goes something like ...when everybody dies and is shut of this world, they will see what God was up to and everyman will see they had it wrong [my bastardized version of it].The thesis of the "blind men and the elephant" is that all views are partially correct and partially false. Behind that is the unspoken statement that God's reality is beyond religion.
I am not religious. I don't see the Christian ideal as being 'mystical', or the people presenting them to me as being 'sacred' in any way. I am basically a philosophical Christian/taoist. For me, the ideals these two ideologies present are logical, and applicable, and they 'work'. So that's the experience I'm speaking to.It doesn't really sound like we're having the same conversation.
Miracles aren't going to prove anything on their own. It is given to false prophets also to be able to do miracles to test the nation:
No, I'm actually asking something slightly different. When G-d wanted to reveal the Torah to the Jewish people through Moses, He made it that the entire nation experienced His revelation in accordance with what Moses said. No one at the time would have questioned whether Moses was truly a prophet of G-d. They might not want to listen to him, but they couldn't question his authority as a prophet of G-d. In fact, when Korah questioned whether everything Moses did really was from G-d, he was promptly dropped into the ground in front of everyone, establishing again Moses' authority.If I have understood correctly, @Tumah wants to know how those who didn't witness Jesus' resurrection and miracles (mostly Gentiles) believed those who did witness them.
How do we know that they were not liars... he asks.
That is not enough. If I nuke Africans, and love Austrians, I will have fulfilled the commandments, since Austrians are my neighbors, while Africans are not.Exactly. That is what Jesus said. To love the neighbor.
So how can something Good be the product of Satan?
My heart tells meYou assume that what Jesus says is Good, and what Satan does is Bad. How do you base your assumption, before knowing what good is, and bad is?
for example, how do you know that what Satan proposes, is bad?
ciao
- viole
brought to mind this thought process>That is my belief as well. And that applies to true "miracles" as well as the common fake miracles.
Neighbor = everyone, even ETsSo, love your neighbor,
No, to the extent that Satan tells you that it is bad.My heart tells me
Does your heart tell you that what Satan says, is good...by chance?
The way the first Law was established more strongly proved itself to its intended audience than the second one. And rationally, it should be the opposite: it should take a stronger proof to annul an established point than the one used to establish it in the first place.