... and if you're wrong?

[Brian2]

Well, Jesus and His stories have been made up by Satan. He manipulated the witnesses, Paul and all the others. With the intention to bring so many as possible to perdition, by believing in the wrong God. After all, he is not called the "master deceiver" for nothing.

Didn't you notice a sudden change in attitude in God, if He was indeed the same God of the Jews? That was rather strange.

Ciao

- viole

It was not really a sudden change in attitude. The attitude all along is of a God who loves all humans and wants to save everyone through the Nation of Israel and their witness to Him in both the Old Testament and the New Testament.

 

[Tumah]

The validity of Christianity does not rely on the words of men. It relies on the accuracy of it's message when it's applied in our lives.

That sounds like a great argument for Buddhism as well.

 

[viole]

Do you believe in the difference between Good and Evil?
If you do, explain this difference to me.

Good is rescuing all those people trying to reach the coasts of Sicily. No matter how many come. Provide them a shelter, money, and a way to start a new life in peace and prosperity in Europe.

That is also what your hero Jesus recommends.

Do you agree?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Samantha Rinne]

That sounds like a great argument for Buddhism as well.

Well there was some Zen Buddhist parable where soneone destroyed scriptures.

I thibk the problem of Judaism is they spend too much of their life reading and reciting this stuff, and not ebough connecting with God.

 

[viole]

It was not really a sudden change in attitude. The attitude all along is of a God who loves all humans and wants to save everyone through the Nation of Israel and their witness to Him in both the Old Testament and the New Testament.

Would you call waterboarding, followed by death, of all humanity, old people, women, small children, .... Love?

Well, I wonder how hate looks like.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Tumah]

The quoted passage strikes me as typical fire-and-brimstone hyperbole from a Victorian extreme Protestant. What sensible Christian really thinks that God would penalise his people for an honest error regarding the divinity or not of Jesus, especially since either way it is the same God they have been trying, albeit imperfectly, to worship?

If Jesus was not divine and not the Christ, I decline to believe God would be tremendously displeased. Though He might sigh and chuckle a bit at the foolishness of Man, I suppose.

In theory I don't completely disagree with you because the Talmud does teach that real idolatry doesn't exist anymore.

But from another angle I think I disagree with you. If G-d says, "that thing over there, I really don't like it", it's up to man to do his utmost to avoid it. Now, if the discussion was about someone who said, "ok G-d doesn't like idolatry, so I better be real careful about it" and then he looks at his own beliefs and evaluates whether there might be a possibility that he has idolatrous beliefs so he objectively scrutinizes all the possibilities and comes to the unequivocal conclusion that he's in the clear. Then yes, I can agree that there's been an honest error. How many people do you think have done that?

 

[Tumah]

1) Not a "small handful" but 12 teams of authors, working with scribes, not even including apocryphal authors

2) Not based on authors alone but on Talmud, which affirms NT truth, and the lack of counter documents from Jews who saw the apostles and Jesus performing dozens of miracles across Israel, and refuting the leaders in person

3) Not "against the very belief required", Jesus said "Don't even think I came to abolish the Mosaic Law" and the NT affirms God's Law is perfection--it is almost 100% Tanakh Midrash

There are only two people on the forum who thinks that there's anything you wrote here that true. You and the guy who gave you the thumbs up.

 

[Tumah]

1) There is no theistic god. Jesus probably existed, but he wasn't the son of god. He was just a regular person.

2) I don't think the early Christians were necessarily liars; they were probably just caught up in it because it was compelling and felt right to them.

3) The biggest problem with Pascal's Wager is that there are many more than 2 options. The "logic" of that idea rests on there either being this one particular version of god or no god at all. In reality, there are many other versions of gods possible. For instance, the real god could be different from Yahweh and hate it when people worship Yahweh but not mind so much when people believe in no god at all. In that case, an atheist is better off than a Yahweh-believer.

Thanks for taking part in the discussion, even if what you had to say didn't directly contribute to the topic of the OP.

 

[Estro Felino]

Good is rescuing all those people trying to reach the coasts of Sicily. No matter how many come. Provide them a shelter, money, and a way to start a new life in peace and prosperity in Europe.

That is also what your hero Jesus recommends.

Do you agree?

Ciao

- viole

Exactly. That is what Jesus said. To love the neighbor.
So how can something Good be the product of Satan?

 

[Estro Felino]

That sounds like a great argument for Buddhism as well.

In fact there are many common values Christianity and Buddhism share.

 

[Tumah]

Btw...reading Jews' replies here...it seems that they all believe we Christians rely on the AT..or that the AT is the main source of our faith.
Absolutely not.
Being raised Catholic ...I vividly recall the priest never reading the Bible to us.
At Catechism class we only had the Gospels book and the Catechism book.
The "Jewish" aspect of the origin of our faith is pretty irrelevant to us.

So...as for your question in the Opening Post : "that Jesus' divinity, Jesus being God violates the Law of the Ancient Testament (unlike Judaism and Islam):
My answer is : that Law is not our Law...because the Gospels are our Law and replaced any precept that contradicts them.

I hope I have been clear...if you need clearifications, just ask.

There's a bit of denialism from you. Half the NT relies on the Tanach for context. The NT very clearly bases itself on the Tanach, so it's clearly not irrelevant. To put it another way - can you make the claim that Jewish people were not commanded by G-d on Mt. Sinai to not serve anyone but Him? That's relevant, because that means a Jewish person will have to have stronger evidence than the national revelation at Mt. Sinai in order to serve anyone else.

 

[PureX]

That sounds like a great argument for Buddhism as well.

Yes, for any religious or philosophical ideology.

 

[Estro Felino]

There's a bit of denialism from you. Half the NT relies on the Tanach for context. The NT very clearly bases itself on the Tanach, so it's clearly not irrelevant. To put it another way - can you make the claim that Jewish people were not commanded by G-d on Mt. Sinai to not serve anyone but Him? That's relevant, because that means a Jewish person will have to have stronger evidence than the national revelation at Mt. Sinai in order to serve anyone else.

No. Honestly I do not believe in the God of the Ancient Testament.
The God of the plagues? Of Sodom and Gomorrah? Of the wars?
This is not only my thought...my priest too taught us that too.

In fact my priest once made a catechism lesson about how wrong are those priests who said that God "changed" from the AT to the NT.
He said "no...the AT is allegories only theologians can interpret".

 

[Tumah]

Well there was some Zen Buddhist parable where soneone destroyed scriptures.

I thibk the problem of Judaism is they spend too much of their life reading and reciting this stuff, and not ebough connecting with God.

That only shows your continued ignorance about Judaism.

And don't throw me that, "oh I can't read Hebrew so I don't really know", nonsense. There's are at least hundreds of books on Judaism available in English.

 

[Tumah]

Yes, for any religious or philosophical ideology.

That makes it a fairly weak argument for any specific ideology.

 

[Tumah]

No. Honestly I do not believe in the God of the Ancient Testament.
The God of the plagues? Of Sodom and Gomorrah? Of the wars?
This is not only my thought...my priest too taught us that too.

Interesting. So who's Moses in your version of Christianity? Google tells me he's mentioned a number of times in the NT.

 

[Tumah]

Ok, I think I got all the comments that aren't 500+ word essays.

 

[Estro Felino]

Interesting. So who's Moses in your version of Christianity? Google tells me he's mentioned a number of times in the NT.

A person who understood who God was, what God's will was. And revealed it to his People.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Nice to see you back, @Tumah, was worried about you.

 

[PureX]

That makes it a fairly weak argument for any specific ideology.

No it doesn't. The ideals presented will either work for us, when applied, or they won't. No "argument" is necessary. Just the courage to put those ideals that we believe make the most sense to us, into action.