Ancestry of the prophet

[J2hapydna]

Peace to all.
J2hapydna
Just a qusetion before answering your concerns.
Who's blood lineage does one follow in DNA testing?
Father or Mother?

Tks in advance.
Peace
Farouk

Hi Farouk, When tracking the father to son lineage geneticists look at the Y DNA. In the case of the mother's lineage scientists can track the mtdna (mitochondrial dna).

In the case of the semitic tribes (both Jewish and Arabs), as conveyed in the Bible and Quran, the tribal identity was thru the father's line e.g. (Abraham), Isaac, Ishmael, Israelite tribes, Levites, Aaronites etc. so, these results are based on comparisons of Y DNA results i.e. thru the father to son line.

 

[farouk]

Could you please share with me, what does the Quran say about the ancestry of the Prophet? I know there are lots of hadith suggesting he was the descendant of prophet Ishmael. However, I could not find any verse in the Quran that explicitly says this. Thanks.

Peace upon those that seek guidance and the truth.
J2hapydna
Before adressing your DNA theory i would like to clear the air so far as your OP.
Sura 2:128/129
"Our Lord! make of us Muslims, bowing to Thy (Will), and of our progeny a people Muslim, bowing to Thy (will); and show us our place for the celebration of (due) rites; and turn unto us (in Mercy); for Thou art the Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.
"Our Lord! send amongst them a Messenger of their own, who shall rehearse Thy Signs to them and instruct them in scripture and wisdom, and sanctify them: For Thou art the Exalted in Might, the Wise."

The above verse is quite clear.The above verse are the prayers of Prophet Abraham and Prophet Ishmael (PBBUT)to the Almighty to send a Messenger to their progeny.
"them" in the above verse refers to Prophet Ishmael(PBBUH) progeny.
I cannot understand why you are having difficulty in accepting this verse.
Futher the Hadiths explicity confirm that Prophet Muhammad(PBBUH) is from the progeny of Prophet Ishmael(PBBUH).Note since you are well aware of the Hadiths i am not going to quote them but what i am going to quote to you is from Christian sources that will confirm Prophet Muhammad (PBBUH) was from the progeny of Prophet Ishmael(PBBUH).
Sebeos, Bishop Of The Bagratunis (Writing in 660s CE / 40s AH)

One of the most interesting accounts of the early seventh century comes from Sebeos who was a bishop of the House of Bagratunis. From this chronicle, there are indications that he lived through many of the events he relates. He maintains that the account of Arab conquests derives from the fugitives who had been eyewitnesses thereof. He concludes with Mu‘awiya's(RA)ascendancy in the Arab civil war (656-61 CE), which suggests that he was writing soon after this date. Sebeos is the first non-Muslim author to present us with a theory for the rise of Islam that pays attention to what the Muslims themselves thought they were doing.The ff is what he had to say:

"At that time a certain man from along those same sons of Ismael, whose name was Mahmet [i.e., Muhammad], a merchant, as if by God's command appeared to them as a preacher [and] the path of truth. He taught them to recognize the God of Abraham, especially because he was learnt and informed in the history of Moses. Now because the command was from on high, at a single order they all came together in unity of religion. Abandoning their vain cults, they turned to the living God who had appeared to their father Abraham. So, Mahmet legislated for them: not to eat carrion, not to drink wine, not to speak falsely, and not to engage in fornication. He said: 'With an oath God promised this land to Abraham and his seed after him for ever. And he brought about as he promised during that time while he loved Ismael. But now you are the sons of Abraham and God is accomplishing his promise to Abraham and his seed for you. Love sincerely only the God of Abraham, and go and seize the land which God gave to your father Abraham. No one will be able to resist you in battle, because God is with you."
​

Sebeos was writing the chronicle at a time when memories of sudden eruption of the Arabs was fresh. He knows Prophet Muhammad's(PBBUH) name and that he was a merchant by profession. He hints that his life was suddenly changed by a divinely inspired revelation. He presents a good summary of Prophet Muhammad's(PBBUH) preaching, i.e., belief in one God, Abraham(PBUH) as a common ancestor of Jews and Arabs and Prophet Muhammad being from the progeny of Prophet Ishmael(PBBUH). He picks out some of the rules of behaviour imposed on the Muslims, the four prohibitions which are mentioned in the Noble Quraan. Much of what he says about the origins of Islam conforms to the Muslim tradition.Note i can give you much more proof but if you do not keep an open mind then its just not worth my time and trouble.
Finally i will address your other concerns like DNA etc later.
PS keep this topic open for discussing and not debate or else we are going to get admin jumping on us.
Peace and may God giude you towards the truth.
Farouk

 

[Union]

Peace upon those that seek guidance and the truth.
J2hapydna
Before adressing your DNA theory i would like to clear the air so far as your OP.
Sura 2:128/129
"Our Lord! make of us Muslims, bowing to Thy (Will), and of our progeny a people Muslim, bowing to Thy (will); and show us our place for the celebration of (due) rites; and turn unto us (in Mercy); for Thou art the Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.
"Our Lord! send amongst them a Messenger of their own, who shall rehearse Thy Signs to them and instruct them in scripture and wisdom, and sanctify them: For Thou art the Exalted in Might, the Wise."

The above verse is quite clear.The above verse are the prayers of Prophet Abraham and Prophet Ishmael (PBBUT)to the Almighty to send a Messenger to their progeny.
"them" in the above verse refers to Prophet Ishmael(PBBUH) progeny.
I cannot understand why you are having difficulty in accepting this verse.
Futher the Hadiths explicity confirm that Prophet Muhammad(PBBUH) is from the progeny of Prophet Ishmael(PBBUH).Note since you are well aware of the Hadiths i am not going to quote them but what i am going to quote to you is from Christian sources that will confirm Prophet Muhammad (PBBUH) was from the progeny of Prophet Ishmael(PBBUH).
Sebeos, Bishop Of The Bagratunis (Writing in 660s CE / 40s AH)

One of the most interesting accounts of the early seventh century comes from Sebeos who was a bishop of the House of Bagratunis. From this chronicle, there are indications that he lived through many of the events he relates. He maintains that the account of Arab conquests derives from the fugitives who had been eyewitnesses thereof. He concludes with Mu‘awiya's(RA)ascendancy in the Arab civil war (656-61 CE), which suggests that he was writing soon after this date. Sebeos is the first non-Muslim author to present us with a theory for the rise of Islam that pays attention to what the Muslims themselves thought they were doing.The ff is what he had to say:

"At that time a certain man from along those same sons of Ismael, whose name was Mahmet [i.e., Muhammad], a merchant, as if by God's command appeared to them as a preacher [and] the path of truth. He taught them to recognize the God of Abraham, especially because he was learnt and informed in the history of Moses. Now because the command was from on high, at a single order they all came together in unity of religion. Abandoning their vain cults, they turned to the living God who had appeared to their father Abraham. So, Mahmet legislated for them: not to eat carrion, not to drink wine, not to speak falsely, and not to engage in fornication. He said: 'With an oath God promised this land to Abraham and his seed after him for ever. And he brought about as he promised during that time while he loved Ismael. But now you are the sons of Abraham and God is accomplishing his promise to Abraham and his seed for you. Love sincerely only the God of Abraham, and go and seize the land which God gave to your father Abraham. No one will be able to resist you in battle, because God is with you."
​

Sebeos was writing the chronicle at a time when memories of sudden eruption of the Arabs was fresh. He knows Prophet Muhammad's(PBBUH) name and that he was a merchant by profession. He hints that his life was suddenly changed by a divinely inspired revelation. He presents a good summary of Prophet Muhammad's(PBBUH) preaching, i.e., belief in one God, Abraham(PBUH) as a common ancestor of Jews and Arabs and Prophet Muhammad being from the progeny of Prophet Ishmael(PBBUH). He picks out some of the rules of behaviour imposed on the Muslims, the four prohibitions which are mentioned in the Noble Quraan. Much of what he says about the origins of Islam conforms to the Muslim tradition.Note i can give you much more proof but if you do not keep an open mind then its just not worth my time and trouble.
Finally i will address your other concerns like DNA etc later.
PS keep this topic open for discussing and not debate or else we are going to get admin jumping on us.
Peace and may God giude you towards the truth.
Farouk

Wow , great info . Thanks Farouk .

 

[J2hapydna]

Hi Farouk,

I am not disputing or disagreeing with the idea that Sabeos recorded what the Umayyids were saying.

On the other hand, I am not sure Sabeos here is claiming to have any personal insight or knowledge into whether the the prophet was a descendant of Ishmael or not. I think he is simply recording what he heard from the Umayyids.

Once again, my question was

Could you please share with me, what does the Quran say about the ancestry of the Prophet? I know there are lots of hadith suggesting he was the descendant of prophet Ishmael. However, I could not find any verse in the Quran that explicitly says this.

In other words, my question has more to do with why the Arabs believed it? I am wondering if there was a verse in the Quran that explicitly stated that the prophet was the descendant of Ishmael Or was it one of their pre-Islamic Arab beliefs that wasn't written down in the Quran?

I cannot understand why you are having difficulty in accepting this verse.

Let me say that it is not just the DNA evidence. I have also provided secular historical accounts from Josephus and Jewish accounts from the Talmud, speaking of such a priestly family constructing Kabaas around Egypt for the purpose of uniting Israelites and Arabs as prophesised in the 19th chapter of the 19th book of the Torah.

That said, I am not saying you are wrong to believe what you believe. I am simply seeking clarification on what is in the Quran.


Thanks.

 

[farouk]

Hi Farouk,

I am not disputing or disagreeing with the idea that Sabeos recorded what the Umayyids were saying.

On the other hand, I am not sure Sabeos here is claiming to have any personal insight or knowledge into whether the the prophet was a descendant of Ishmael or not. I think he is simply recording what he heard from the Umayyids.

Once again, my question was



In other words, my question has more to do with why the Arabs believed it? I am wondering if there was a verse in the Quran that explicitly stated that the prophet was the descendant of Ishmael Or was it one of their pre-Islamic Arab beliefs that wasn't written down in the Quran?



Let me say that it is not just the DNA evidence. I have also provided secular historical accounts from Josephus and Jewish accounts from the Talmud, speaking of such a priestly family constructing Kabaas around Egypt for the purpose of uniting Israelites and Arabs as prophesised in the 19th chapter of the 19th book of the Torah.

That said, I am not saying you are wrong to believe what you believe. I am simply seeking clarification on what is in the Quran.


Thanks.

Peace upon those that seek guidance.
The Noble Quraan 21:18
" bal naqdhifu bil Haq-qi 'Alal baaTili fa yadmaguhuu fa idhaa huwa zaahiq* wa lakumul waylu mim-maa taSifuun".
Translation
"Nay, We hurl the Truth against falsehood, and it knocks out its brain, and behold, falsehood doth perish! Ah! woe be to you for the (false) things ye ascribe (to Us)".

The above is a beautiful verse of the Noble Quraan and how true it is .
J2hapydna
So far all we read from your postings,DNA to Onias IV,is nothing but conjecture.
Note i have a whole lot of material to prove that you are clinging to nothing but conjecture and i am going to do it in several postings because it is lengthy but you need to keep an open mind and bring proof to the discussion.
Firstly
I want you read the ff from the chronicle of Sebeos, Bishop Of The Bagratunis again.
"At that time a certain man from along those same sons of Ismael, whose name was Mahmet [i.e., Muhammad], a merchant, as if by God's command appeared to them as a preacher [and] the path of truth. He taught them to recognize the God of Abraham, especially because he was learnt and informed in the history of Moses. Now because the command was from on high, at a single order they all came together in unity of religion. Abandoning their vain cults, they turned to the living God who had appeared to their father Abraham. So, Mahmet legislated for them: not to eat carrion, not to drink wine, not to speak falsely, and not to engage in fornication. He said: 'With an oath God promised this land to Abraham and his seed after him for ever. And he brought about as he promised during that time while he loved Ismael. But now you are the sons of Abraham and God is accomplishing his promise to Abraham and his seed for you. Love sincerely only the God of Abraham, and go and seize the land which God gave to your father Abraham. No one will be able to resist you in battle, because God is with you."


Now prove to me where in his entire chronicle that he ever states that the above info of the Muslims he got from the Umayyids.Note i have given you 100% proof from Christian literature and what you doing J2hapydna is speculating.Please note we are discussing peoples beliefs and it triggers peoples emotions so please don't speculate and bring us proof.

Secondly.
Let me give you another literature from Christian sources and lets see how this knocks your brains.
Chronicler of Khuzistan (wr. ca. 660s)
"Then God raised up against them the sons of Ishmael, [numerous] as the sand on the sea shore, whose leader (mdabbrana) was Muhammad (mhmd). Neither walls nor gates, armour nor shield, withstood them, and they gained control over the entire land of the Persians. Yazdgird sent against them countless troops, but the Arabs routed them all and even killed Rustam. Yazdgird shut himself up in the walls of Mahoze and finally escaped by flight. He reached the country of the Huzaye and Mrwnaye, where he ended his life. The Arabs gained control of Mahoze and all the territory. They also came to Byzantine territory, plundering and ravaging the entire region of Syria. Heraclius, the Byzantine king, sent armies against them, but the Arabs killed more than 100,000 of them. When the catholicos Isho'yahb saw that Mahoze had been devastated by the Arabs and that they had carried off its gates to 'Aqula (Kufa) and that those who remained were wasting away from hunger, he left and took up residence in Beth Garmai, in the town of Karka. (Chron. Khuzistan, 30-31 [p. 186])"

Once again J2hapydna a Christian literature calls the Prophet Muhammad(PBBUH) a son of Ishmael.Now lets not speculate and make all kinds of false statements that they heard it from the Umayyids.Note both the literature i have given you was in Christian books before the books of Hadiths was ever written.

PS i will continue this article a little later.
Peace
Farouk

.



​

 

[farouk]

Peace upon those that seek knowledge.
The ff literature is even more interesting and its from a Rabbi.
The Secrets of Rabbi Simon ben Yohai (post-680?)

The following is written of one Simon, who hid in a cave from the emperor, after praying for a number of days and asking for enlightenment (Simon ben Yohai, Secrets, 78-79 [pp. 309-310]):

"At once the secrets of the end and the mysteries were revealed to him, and he sat and began to expound: "And he saw the Kenite" (Numbers xxiv.21).
Since he saw the kingdom of Ishmael that was coming, he began to say: "Was it not enough what the wicked kingdom of Edom has done to us, but [we deserve] the kingdom of Ishmael too?" At once Metatron, the foremost angel (sar ha-penim), answered him and said: "Do not fear, son of man, for the Almighty only brings the kingdom of Ishmael in order to deliver you from this wicked one (Edom). He raises up over them (Ishmaelites) a prophet according to His will and He will conquer the land for them, and they will come and restore it to greatness, and a great dread will come between them and the sons of Esau." Rabbi Simon answered him and said: "How [is it known] that they are our salvation?" He (Metatron) said to him: "Did not the prophet Isaiah say that 'he saw a chariot with a pair of horsemen etc.'? Why did he put hte chariot of ***** before the chariot of camels when he should rather have said 'a chariot of camels and [then] a chariot of *****,' because when he (Ishmael, i.e. the Arabs) goes forth [to war], he rides upon on a camel, and when the kingdom will arise by his hands he rides upon an ***? [Given that he said the reverse of this], the chariot of *****, since he (the Messiah) rides upon an ***, shows that they (the Ishmaelites, represented by the chariot of camels) are a salvation for Israel, like the salvation of the rider on an *** (i.e. the Messiah)."
Another exegesis: Rabbi Simon used to say tht he heard Rabbi Ishmael [say], when he had heard that the kingdom of Ishmael was approaching: "They will measure the land with ropes, as it is said, 'And he shall divide the land for a price' (Daniel xi.39). And they will make cemeteries into a pasturing place for flocks; and when one of them dies, they will bury him in whatever pplace they find and later plough the grave and sow thereon. Thus it is said: 'The children of Israel shall eat their bread defiled (Ezekiel iv.13),' because the unclean field should not be encroached upon."
Again: "And when he saw the Kenite:" and what parable did the wicked one (Balaam) take up, except that when he saw the sons of his (the Kenite's) sons who were to arise and subject Israel, he began to rejoice and said: "Strong (etan) is your dwelling place. I see that the sons of man do not eat save according to the commandments of Etan the Ezrahite."
[From the book (p. 311):] "The increased hostility of the Byzantine empire towards its Jewish communities during the late sixth and early seventh century, which culminated in Heraclius' decree ordering their compulsory baptism, make it unsurprising that a number of Jews should hail the Arab conquerors as deliverers. What our author is trying to do is to justify and find confirmation for such a conclusion from scripture, and to place the affair in the grander context of God's plan for Israel. The use made of Isaiah is fairly explicit. Rather abstruse in the text as we have it is the recourse to Numbers xxiv.21: 'And he (Balaam) saw the Kenite and took up his parable and said: "Strong is your dwelling place and you put your nest in a rock."' The Kenites are sons of Jethro, Salamians, identified in Byzantine inscriptions and literature as an Arab tribe. Balaam is the Biblical 'prophet of the gentiles' sent to Moab and the Midianites, and so an appropriate figure to prophesy about the Arabs. His first words advance a favourable verdict upon the future of their dominion: 'Strong is your dwelling place.' And the second part seems bound up with the favourable description of 'Umar I in the Secrets:"

The second king who arises from Ishmael will be a lover of Israel. He restores their breaches and the breaches of the Temple. He hews Mount Moriah, makes it level and builds a mosque (hishtahawaya) there on the Temple rock, as it is said: "Your nest is set in the rock." (Simon ben Yohai, Secrets, 79 [p. 311])

​

Once again J2hapydna the above literature answers your Prophecy theory from a Jewish source.J2hapydna read and absorb the last part of the above literature.Do you know who was the second King and do you know how Jerusalem was conquered?
J2hapydna instead of speculating on the contents of the above literature it will be better for you to verify the article after all you owe it to your soul.
Please stay tuned because i am going to give you literature thats even more interesting regarding Mecca.
Peace and may the Almighty guide you.
Farouk

 

[farouk]

Peace upon the truth seekers.
J2hapydna
As promised yesterday about something on Mecca.
This is interesting because its a literature complied during the 3rd century BC which obviously is pre-Islamic era.
Mecca was mentioned in the Samaritan literature, in the Book of the “Secrets of Moses” (Asatir) which claimed that Mecca was built by Ishmael and his eldest son Nebaioth(PBBUT).
Here is a link.
http://ancient-texts.com/alpha/A-I/index.html

There are lots of literature on this site but the one i am refering to is Asatir secrets.The ff verse is from this book.
“(i) And it came to pass after the death of our master
Abraham on whom be peace that Ishmael reigned as
king for twenty seven years. (2) And all the children of
Ishmael, P. 89. who are of the seed of his first born,
Nebut, ruled one year in Ishmaels lifetime (3) and for
thirty years after his death; (and they ruled) from the
river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates. And
they built Bakh; (4) and therefore it is said in Genesis
25. 1 8, "As thou goest toward Assyria: he abode in the
presence of all his brethren."

The word "Bakkah" is in the Noble Quraan.Here a link on Bakkah.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakkah


J2hapydna the above book you must read because it will increase your knowledge in your studys of the Noble Quraan and the Torah.
Note the very first word that was revealed to our Master(PBBUH) was read and reading will increase knowledge and thus eliminate ignorance.
Note i have given you enough solid proof that the Prophet Muhammad(PBBUH) is from the lineage of Prophet Ishmael(PBBUH) and i have much,much more to give you but i am only going to give you just one more before answering your other concerns.

Peace and stay tuned because the next one is also very interesting.
Farouk

 

[J2hapydna]

Now prove to me where in his entire chronicle that he ever states that the above info of the Muslims he got from the Umayyids. Note i have given you 100% proof from Christian literature and what you doing J2hapydna is speculating.Please note we are discussing peoples beliefs and it triggers peoples emotions so please don't speculate and bring us proof.

Let me see, you posted:

Sebeos, Bishop Of The Bagratunis (Writing in 660s CE / 40s AH)

One of the most interesting accounts of the early seventh century comes from Sebeos who was a bishop of the House of Bagratunis. From this chronicle, there are indications that he lived through many of the events he relates. He maintains that the account of Arab conquests derives from the fugitives who had been eyewitnesses thereof. He concludes with Mu‘awiya's(RA)ascendancy in the Arab civil war (656-61 CE), which suggests that he was writing soon after this date. Sebeos is the first non-Muslim author to present us with a theory for the rise of Islam that pays attention to what the Muslims themselves thought they were doing.

So, all I did was paraphrase what you wrote.

BTW, what kind of proof are you looking for? I have already quoted the fulfillment of biblical prophecy in the 19th chapter of the 19th book of the Torah , DNA evidence, Talmud and secular historian Josephus. Ive also shown you it doesn't contradict the Quran.

If it is not enough and you think Arabs thinking the Prophet was the descendant of Ishmael and reports of Jews and Christians confirming that Arabs thought he was the descendant of Ishmael makes him one then I am happy for you. I am not going to say you don't have proof or it is conjecture. I think if that is your faith then have it.

 

[farouk]

Peace upon the truth seekers.
Today we look for proof from the commentary of the Bible that Rabbi Ben Azra
use to read.
Here is your link.
http://bible.ort.org/books/torahd5.asp?action=displaypage&book=1&chapter=16&verse=14&portion=3

Note you can flip pages and study his commentary on other verses as well.What interest me is on the link page and if you scroll down you will see the commentary.
Verse.16:14
She therefore named the oasis,"Oasis to life my Vision"
Commentary.
"Or 'Well of the lifegiving vision,' (HaKethav VeHaKabbalah); 'Well of the vision of the Living One' (Rashi; Targum); or 'Well to the Living One who sees me' (Ibn Ezra). Ibn Ezra identifies this with Zimum (or in other versions, Zimzum), where the Arabs hold an annual festival. This is Zemzem near Mecca. According to this, however, Hagar headed into the Arabian Peninsula rather than toward Egypt."

For the ignorant the above refers to a well In Mecca,between 10 to 20 metres from the Kaaba,called Zam-Zam.The miracle of this well is its pure water and it is still pumping water up to this day.The annual festival refers to the Haj pilgrimage.
Read all the info on Zam-Zam well on the ff link:
Zamzam Well - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The question is who is Rabbi Ben Azra.
According to Prof. Friedman, today’s Taurah was written by five rabbis who lived several centuries after Prophet Moses(PBBUH) and later another rabbi named Ezra gathered them together and published them in the name of the original version of the Old Testament.
J2hapydna so far I have proved from 2 Christian chronicles that called our Prophet (PBBIH) the" Son of Ishmael"(PBBUH).i have proved from the secrets of Rabbi Simon ben Yohai who confirms that your bible prophecy being fulfilled by the appearance of my Prophet Muhammad(PBBUH).
I have proved to you from Samaritan literature that Mecca was built by Prophet Ishmael(PBBUH).Today i have proved from your own bible from the commentary of its scribe that Hagar(PBBUH) was in Mecca with her son Ismael(PBBUH).The bottom line is i have proved to you beyond any reasonable doubt from historical sources that Prophet Muhammad(PBBUH) was from the lineage of Prophet Ishmael(PBBUH).If for any reason you doubt on the evidence that i have provided then it means that you refuse to accept the truth simply because you have already made up your mind before engaging on the discussion..
Note again i did say that i can provide you much,much more but without an open mind its not worth my trouble.
Futher J2hapydna you need to study history to understand the fact that many of the people that accepted Islam during the Prophets(PBBUH) appearance were not all idol worshippers.There were many who were the followers of Prophet Abraham(PBBIH) and his son Prophet Ishmael(PBBUH)and were called Hanifs.The evidence of this is in the Noble Quraan and its a subject that will need an entire posting .
My next posting i will discuss the word"Allah" which so many non believers are ignorant off.Stay tuned because you in for a surprise.
Peace
Farouk

 

[farouk]

Peace upon those that seek knowledge.
Todays post is about Gods names.The 3 religions namely Judaism,Christianity and Islam do indeed worship the same God.It is the same God that Abraham(PBBUH) worshiped.Weather you call your God Jehovah,Lord,Yahweh or Allah it makes no difference because it is refering to the same God.When Moses(PBBUH)asked God his name God replied "Ehyeh asher ehyeh"and this phrase has several meaning."I am that i am" or "I will be as i will be" or " I cause to be what i cause to be"Note these are not really names but a statement of existence,causality and permanence.The bottom line is just as Jehovah may be foreign to the english launguage Allah will also be foreign to the Christians.The point that everyone need to understand is that the Father,Jehovah,Yahweh and Allah are one and the same God.The 3 religions belong to the Monotheism faith of Prophet Abraham(PBBUH).Therefore there is only one true God no matter what people call him.The supreme one,the Almighty can by definition only be one alone.The difference between all 3 religions is the concept of God that they believe in.
For the ignorant who do not understand Arabic.
The word Allah, according to several Arabic lexicons, means "the Being Who comprises all the attributes of perfection", i.e. the Being Who is perfect in every way (in His knowledge, power etc.), and possesses the best and the noblest qualities imaginable in the highest degree . This meaning is supported by the Noble Quraan
Verse 17:110
Say: "Call upon Allah, or call upon Rahman: by whatever name ye call upon Him, (it is well): for to Him belong the Most Beautiful Names. Neither speak thy Prayer aloud, nor speak it in a low tone, but seek a middle course between."
The question regarding that Islam worship a moon God called Allah is a myth.Here is your link.
Allah as Moon-god - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Whats interesting is the Jews in the past also prayed to a pagan idol which was a moon God called Yahweh.
Here is a link.
The hallelujah god
There are books like "Tempest & Exodus" and "African presence in early Asia" also confirms it.

Now the question is do the present Christian and Jews also worship the Moon God by calling their God Yahweh?
Its only people that are ignorant or dumb stupid that will accuse any of the 3 Religions of worshipping idols.
My next posting will be on Matt 24.
Peace
Farouk

 

[J2hapydna]

so far I have proved from 2 Christian chronicles that called our Prophet (PBBIH) the" Son of Ishmael"(PBBUH).

You have proved that the Christians chronicled that this is what the Arabs were saying. It doesn't mean these Christians spoke to the prophet and independently verified from him if he was claiming to be the son of Ishmael or not.

So the first question could be, how did the Arabs know if he was the descendant of Ishmael? We have examined the Quran on this thread and it calls the Arabs the Ummah of Ishmael, which can loosely be translated to sons of Ishmael. However, we know that members of an Ummah don't have to be the patrilineal genetic descendants of the founding tribe. By marrying their daughters, learning their culture and language etc people can be grafted to the Ummah without being a paternal descendant of the founding tribe. So, we can understand how based on the Quran the Arabs could claim to be the Ummah of Ishmael or loosely sons of Ishmael. However, it is not clear, at least based on the Quran, how they could claim the prophet was the patrilineal descendant of Ishmael.

So, the next question is, did the Arabs learn it from an oral tradition of the prophet i.e. Hadith or was it something they assumed because of their pre Islamic traditions?

To answer this question, if you have any accounts of the prophet directly meeting with Jews and Christians and them recording his answer, then share it. Otherwise, what you have are only third party accounts of Jews and Christians about what the Arabs were claiming. They only substantiate what we have already determined to be true i.e. the Arabs were claiming it. We don't know why they were claiming it, but we do know it wasn't because it was written in the Quran. Does that sound fair?

 

[farouk]

You can definitely read Isaiah 19 and Matt 24 and see how much hard work he put into making sure he established the altar and sacrifices united the three nations (Egyptian, Assyrian and Israelite his own) in religion and language at a time when the plague was raging thru Egypt and waterways drying up and the sun went dark and temperatures had fallen etc. So, he cared enough to make the promises in Isaiah and Matt come true.

Peace upon those that seek the truth.
Today as promised i will discuss Matt 24
Here is the whole verse
24 "And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth".

This is called the Olivet Discourse because it was given on the Mount of Olives and is also referred to as the Discourse on the End Times.
The discourse is mostly about judgment and the expected conduct of his followers and the need for vigilance by the followers in view of the coming judgement.The discourse is prompted by a question the disciples ask about the end of the age (end of this world) and receives the longest response provided by Jesus(PBBUH) in the New Testament.The discourse is generally viewed as referring both to the coming destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem and as well as the second coming of Jesus(PBBUH).
The Prophecy on the destruction of the Temple was fulfilled and hence we are to see the last Prophecy that is the coming of Jesus(PBBUH) to be fulfilled.For the ignorant,we in Islam,believe in the second coming of Jesus(PBBUH) because it is also a prophecy of Prophet Muhammad(PBBUH).
Now how does the above discourse has anything to do with Prophet Muhammad(PBBUH)?
Next we will discuss Isaiah19
Peace
Farouk

 

[farouk]

You can definitely read Isaiah 19 and Matt 24 and see how much hard work he put into making sure he established the altar and sacrifices united the three nations (Egyptian, Assyrian and Israelite his own) in religion and language at a time when the plague was raging thru Egypt and waterways drying up and the sun went dark and temperatures had fallen etc. So, he cared enough to make the promises in Isaiah and Matt come true.

Peace upon those that are ignorant.
Isaiah 19
19 A prophecy against Egypt:
See, the Lord rides on a swift cloud
and is coming to Egypt.
The idols of Egypt tremble before him,
and the hearts of the Egyptians melt with fear.

2 “I will stir up Egyptian against Egyptian—
brother will fight against brother,
neighbor against neighbor,
city against city,
kingdom against kingdom.
3 The Egyptians will lose heart,
and I will bring their plans to nothing;
they will consult the idols and the spirits of the dead,
the mediums and the spiritists.
4 I will hand the Egyptians over
to the power of a cruel master,
and a fierce king will rule over them,”
declares the Lord, the Lord Almighty.

5 The waters of the river will dry up,
and the riverbed will be parched and dry.
6 The canals will stink;
the streams of Egypt will dwindle and dry up.
The reeds and rushes will wither,
7 also the plants along the Nile,
at the mouth of the river.
Every sown field along the Nile
will become parched, will blow away and be no more.
8 The fishermen will groan and lament,
all who cast hooks into the Nile;
those who throw nets on the water
will pine away.
9 Those who work with combed flax will despair,
the weavers of fine linen will lose hope.
10 The workers in cloth will be dejected,
and all the wage earners will be sick at heart.

11 The officials of Zoan are nothing but fools;
the wise counselors of Pharaoh give senseless advice.
How can you say to Pharaoh,
“I am one of the wise men,
a disciple of the ancient kings”?

12 Where are your wise men now?
Let them show you and make known
what the Lord Almighty
has planned against Egypt.
13 The officials of Zoan have become fools,
the leaders of Memphis are deceived;
the cornerstones of her peoples
have led Egypt astray.
14 The Lord has poured into them
a spirit of dizziness;
they make Egypt stagger in all that she does,
as a drunkard staggers around in his vomit.
15 There is nothing Egypt can do—
head or tail, palm branch or reed.

16 In that day the Egyptians will become weaklings. They will shudder with fear at the uplifted hand that the Lord Almighty raises against them. 17 And the land of Judah will bring terror to the Egyptians; everyone to whom Judah is mentioned will be terrified, because of what the Lord Almighty is planning against them.
18 In that day five cities in Egypt will speak the language of Canaan and swear allegiance to the Lord Almighty. One of them will be called the City of the Sun.[a]
19 In that day there will be an altar to the Lord in the heart of Egypt, and a monument to the Lord at its border. 20 It will be a sign and witness to the Lord Almighty in the land of Egypt. When they cry out to the Lord because of their oppressors, he will send them a savior and defender, and he will rescue them. 21 So the Lord will make himself known to the Egyptians, and in that day they will acknowledge the Lord. They will worship with sacrifices and grain offerings; they will make vows to the Lord and keep them. 22 The Lord will strike Egypt with a plague; he will strike them and heal them. They will turn to the Lord, and he will respond to their pleas and heal them.
23 In that day there will be a highway from Egypt to Assyria. The Assyrians will go to Egypt and the Egyptians to Assyria. The Egyptians and Assyrians will worship together. 24 In that day Israel will be the third, along with Egypt and Assyria, a blessing[b] on the earth. 25 The Lord Almighty will bless them, saying, “Blessed be Egypt my people, Assyria my handiwork, and Israel my inheritance.”

According to Gregory of Nyssa the Prophet Isaiah (PBBUH) knew more perfectly than all others the mystery of the religion of the Gospel.Jerome also lauds the Prophet Isaiah (PBBUH)saying he was more of an Evangelist than a Prophet because he described all of the Mysteries of the Church of Christ so vividly that you would assume he was not prophesying about the future but rather was composing a history of past events.
Well from the above verse its quite obvious that all that is said in the verse happened during the time of Mose(PBBUH).If the above verse is a prophecy then it still has to be fulfilled and i cannot see it happening in the near future because there are no idol worshippers in Egypt at the present time.
Now how does this verse relates to Prophet Muhammad(PBBUH)?
Looking into both Matt 19 and Isaiah 24 its quite obvious J2hapydna that your theory is nothing but speculative conjecture.Please bring historical proof and facts before conjecturing and speculating on any subject regarding linking my Prophet (PBBUH) with idol worshippers.
Next posting will be on the high priest Onias.
Peace
Farouk

 

[farouk]

You can read how the historian Josephus and the Jewish Talmud records that high priest Onias IV and his family had started building altars / temples (Kabbas) in and around Egypt to fulfill Isaiah 19, after the Hasmonean Jews had kicked his family out of the Jerusalem temple, a little bit before the coming of Jesus:

LEONTOPOLIS - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Peace on those that seek the truth.
The ff is a link on what a Temple looks like in Egypt.
https://www.google.com/search?q=pic...ELOPA7AaF34HQBw&ved=0CCUQsAQ&biw=1280&bih=606

The ff is a picture of what the Kaaba looks like.
https://www.google.com/search?q=pic...MJMSI7AbDlYDADQ&ved=0CCgQsAQ&biw=1280&bih=606

Note there is no prize in spotting the difference.The truth is there is such a big difference between a Temple and Kaaba that for someone to call a Temple a Kaaba simply portrays ones ignorance.

Then the question on minaret.
A minaret is simply a tall structure from which the call of prayer is made from.Just as the Christians have their bell on a tall tower we in Islam build a tall structure from which the call of prayer is made.Now to associate a monument to a minaret is absurd.Futher the first minaret was built 80 years after the Prophets(PBBUH) demise.
Here is your link.
Minaret - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Finally regarding the high priest Onias.
Here is your link.
Onias, Temple of

J2hapydna so far every post you have made is nothing but conjecture theory.Please provide us with factual proof that the high priest Onias settled in Arabia and that his lineage is linked to Prophet Muhammad(PBBUH).If you have no historical factual proof then its very obvious you are living in a World of speculation.My religion and belief is based on truth hence speculation and conjecture has no room in Islam.
Next posting will be based on J2hapydna last post no 51.
Peace
Farouk

 

[farouk]

You have proved that the Christians chronicled that this is what the Arabs were saying. It doesn't mean these Christians spoke to the prophet and independently verified from him if he was claiming to be the son of Ishmael or not.

The Noble Quraan 21:18
" bal naqdhifu bil Haq-qi 'Alal baaTili fa yadmaguhuu fa idhaa huwa zaahiq* wa lakumul waylu mim-maa taSifuun".
Translation
"Nay, We hurl the Truth against falsehood, and it knocks out its brain, and behold, falsehood doth perish! Ah! woe be to you for the (false) things ye ascribe (to Us)".

Its getting pretty obvious that the above verse is starting to take effect.
Lets look at my entire posting so that i can come down to your level.
Sebeos, Bishop Of The Bagratunis (Writing in 660s CE / 40s AH)

One of the most interesting accounts of the early seventh century comes from Sebeos who was a bishop of the House of Bagratunis. From this chronicle, there are indications that he lived through many of the events he relates. He maintains that the account of Arab conquests derives from the fugitives who had been eyewitnesses thereof. He concludes with Mu‘awiya's(RA)ascendancy in the Arab civil war (656-61 CE), which suggests that he was writing soon after this date. Sebeos is the first non-Muslim author to present us with a theory for the rise of Islam that pays attention to what the Muslims themselves thought they were doing.The ff is what he had to say:

"At that time a certain man from along those same sons of Ismael, whose name was Mahmet [i.e., Muhammad], a merchant, as if by God's command appeared to them as a preacher [and] the path of truth. He taught them to recognize the God of Abraham, especially because he was learnt and informed in the history of Moses. Now because the command was from on high, at a single order they all came together in unity of religion. Abandoning their vain cults, they turned to the living God who had appeared to their father Abraham. So, Mahmet legislated for them: not to eat carrion, not to drink wine, not to speak falsely, and not to engage in fornication. He said: And he brought about as he promised during that time while he loved Ismael. But now you are the sons of Abraham and God is accomplishing his promise to Abraham and his seed for you. Love sincerely only the God of Abraham, and go and seize the land which God gave to your father Abraham. No one will be able to resist you in battle, because God is with you."

J2hapydna seems you having a problem understanding what i wrote.
In simple english i said the chronicle was written just after Muawiya' (RA) became the commander in chief of the Muslim army in Syria and according to Sebos he taught that the invasion was because of Gods promise to Abraham(PBBUH).The truth is what Sebos taught was wrong because they also invaded many other countries which was not promised by God to Abraham(PBBUH).
Your other concerns on postings 51 will ff.
Peace
Farouk
​

 

[farouk]

J2hapydna wrote
"So the first question could be,how did the Arabs know if he was the descendant of Ishmael?"


Peace upon those that seek knowledge.
J2hapydna this is a very simple question to answer.
Let me take you inside the Palace of an Abyssinian king called Negus.J2hapydna please read very carefully.
When they were all assembled, the Negus spoke to them and said:
"What is this religion wherein ye have become separate from your people, though ye have not entered my religion nor that of any other of the folk that surround us?"
Jafar answered him saying:
"O King, we were people steeped in ignorance, worshiping idols, eating unsacrificed carrion, committing abominations, and the strong would devour the weak. Thus we were, until Allah(The One True God) sent us a Messenger from out of our midst, one whose lineage we knew, and his veracity and his worthiness of trust and his integrity. He called us unto God, that we should
testify to His Oneness and worship Him and renounce what we and our fathers had worshiped in the way of stones and idols; and he commanded us to speak truly, to fulfil our promises, to respect the ties of kinship and the rights of our neighbors, and to refrain from crimes and from bloodshed. So we worship God alone, setting naught beside Him, counting as forbidden what He hath forbidden and as licit what He hath allowed. For these reasons have our people turned against us, and have persecuted us to make us forsake our religion and revert from the worship of God to the worship of idols. That is why we have come to thy country, having chosen thee above all others; and we have been happy in thy protection, and it is our hope, O King, that here with thee we shall not suffer wrong."
Here is your link for the full conversation.
http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/negus.html

Please don't forget to read the part on why Negus reverted to Islam.Negus must have been a stupid if he reverted to Islam without finding out the Prophets(PBBUH) lineage.Again i say to you keep an open mind and stop clinging on speculation.
Will continue on J2hapydna concerns of posting 51.
Peace
Farouk

 

[farouk]

J2hapydna wrote
"So the first question could be,how did the Arabs know if he was the descendant of Ishmael?We have examined the Quran on this thread and it calls the Arabs the Ummah of Ishmael, which can loosely be translated to sons of Ishmael."

Peace to the seekers of knowledge.
J2hapydna you are either exposing your lack of knowledge in the Arabic launguage or you twisting the meaning of words to suit your speculative agenda.
Let me come down to your level and explain to you in simple english what "Ummah" really means.
Lets look at the verse that i gave you that explictly proves that Prophet Muhammad(PBBUH) was from the progeny of Prophet Ishmael(PBBUH).
Sura 2:128/129
"Our Lord! make of us Muslims, bowing to Thy (Will), and of our progeny a people Muslim, bowing to Thy (will); and show us our place for the celebration of (due) rites; and turn unto us (in Mercy); for Thou art the Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.
"Our Lord! send amongst them a Messenger of their own, who shall rehearse Thy Signs to them and instruct them in scripture and wisdom, and sanctify them: For Thou art the Exalted in Might, the Wise."

Please take off your blinkers and read with an open mind.The above verses is from the 2 chapter of the Noble Quraan called Al-Baqarah in english it means the Cow or heifer.The first thing to understand is this chapter was revealed to Prophet Muhammad(PBBUH) just after his hijrat(migration) from Mecca to Yathrib (present day called Medina).At the time of his migration the citizens of Yathrib were asking all kinds of questions regarding him being a Prophet.Also note there were many citizen's who lived in Yathrib knowing that a Prophet,the final Messenger,will appear there.This chapter was hence revealed from God almighty to confirm who he was.Note take some time and read the entire chapter after all you are seeking for the truth.
Now lets look into your "Ummah" concern.
Here is a Transliteration of Sura 2:128
“Rabbana wajAAalnamuslimayni laka wamin thurriyyatina ommatanmuslimatan laka waarina manasikana watubAAalayna innaka anta attawwabu arraheem”.

The word is "Ommatan" and not "Ummah".Note its most unfair to play around with words because its misleading.Now lets look at the translation of this verse.
Sahih International
“Our Lord, and make us Muslims [in submission] to You and from our descendants a Muslim nation [in submission] to You. And show us our rites and accept our repentance. Indeed, You are the Accepting of repentance, the Merciful”.
Muhsin Khan
"Our Lord! And make us submissive unto You and of our offspring a nation submissive unto You, and show us our Manasik (all the ceremonies of pilgrimage - Hajj and 'Umrah, etc.), and accept our repentance. Truly, You are the One Who accepts repentance, the Most Merciful”.
Pickthall
“Our Lord! And make us submissive unto Thee and of our seed a nation submissive unto Thee, and show us our ways of worship, and relent toward us. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Relenting, the Merciful”.
Yusuf Ali
"Our Lord! make of us Muslims, bowing to Thy (Will), and of our progeny a people Muslim, bowing to Thy (will); and show us our place for the celebration of (due) rites; and turn unto us (in Mercy); for Thou art the Oft-Returning, Most Merciful”.
Shakir
“Our Lord! and make us both submissive to Thee and (raise) from our offspring a nation submitting to Thee, and show us our ways of devotion and turn to us (mercifully), surely Thou art the Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful”.
Dr. Ghali
“Our Lord, and make us (both) Muslims (i.e. surrendered) to You, and of our offspring a nation Muslim to You, and show us our rituals and relent towards us; surely You Ever You are The Superbly Relenting, The Ever-Merciful”.

Note the above are the prayers (Dua) of both Abraham(father) and Ishmael(son) peace and blessings be upon them.Now J2hapydna take your pick from the above translation.
Our decendents.
Our offspring.
Our seed.
Our progeny.
Who is this “Our”……”Our”refers to both father Abraham and son Ismael(PBBUT).The translation is unanimous and the above confirms that the prayers(dua) of both father Abraham and son Ishmael(PBBUT) have been answered by the appearace of Prophet Muhammad(PBBUH).Note nobody ever claimed to be a Prophet before the apperance of Prophet Muhammad(PBBUH) in the whole of Arabia and there was no one in the whole of Arabia, that came after the death Prophet Ishmael(PBBUB),that taught the Arabs how to pray(bow to the will of almighty) and how to perform the pilgrimage rites except Prophet Muhammad(PBBUH).
Prophet Muhammad(PBBUH) fulfilled the prayers of both Prophet Abraham and Prophet Ishmael(PBBUT) and hence he was definately from progeny,seed,decendent and offspring of both father and son.
Next post will also be a reply on J2hapydna post no 51.
Peace
Farouk

 

[farouk]

J2hapydna wrote
"So, the next question is, did the Arabs learn it from an oral tradition of the prophet i.e. Hadith or was it something they assumed because of their pre Islamic traditions? "

Peace upon the seekers of knowledge.
J2hapydna your question relates to Arabs which means Muslims and non-muslims.Lets look at some examples of both.
Firstly
Lets look at a Ebionite priest named Waraka ibn Nawfal.
When the Prophet(PBBUH) received his first Quranic revelation on Mount Hira it had a great impact on him. Following this unusual experience he went home feeling ill. His wife Khadija(RA) took the Prophet(PBBUH) to Waraqa and told him about the revelation.After listening to Prophet Muhammad(PBBUH) Waraqa said that it was Gabriel the Angel of Revelation who had come to him just as he had come to Moses(PBBUH) and he added, “I wish I were young.”
Waraqa was an open-minded man; he converted from paganism to Christianity and also understood the features of the revelation that had been given to Muhammad(PBBUH) He sincerely supported Muhammad(PBBUH) as a Christian believer when he understood that he was the awaited prophet, after Moses and Jesus( peace be upon them). Waraqa encouraged Muhammad(PBBUH) to continue his call without any doubt that God would protect him. This is a fine example of cooperation between a well known Christian scholar and the would be Prophet.
Here is your link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waraka_ibn_Nawfal
If Waraqa was so knowledgeable in the Gospel then it pretty obvious that he knew the lineage of Prophet Muhammad(PBBUH).Futher they both are related through common lineage.

Secondly let look at
The Delegation of Najran Christians
When the Najran delegation reached Madina they debated with the Prophet in an investigatory dialogue for two or three days in the mosque (Masjid) of Madina. Prophet Muhammad allowed them to pray in the mosque (Masjid al-Nabawi) where the Muslims prayed. The whole incident was the first occurrence of peaceful dialogue between Christians and Muslims and it was the first time that Christians prayed in a mosque.J2hapydna what was the dialogue for two to three days all about.Did they not ask him about his ancestory?If they did not ask him then for sure they knew his lineage.
Here is your link.
http://www.onislam.net/english/reading-islam/about-muhammad/his-life/452128-prophet-muhammad-meets-najran-christians.html


Thirdly let look at a Zoroasterism who became a Christian then finally reverted to Islam.His name is Hazrat Salman Farsi (RA).
Here is a link to his biography.
http://www.inter-islam.org/Biographies/SalmanfarsiR.htm

Finally
There were many people that lived in Arabia at the time of Prophet Muhammad (PBBUH) that were following the way of life of Prophet Abraham and Prophet Ishmael(PBBUT) and they were called Hanifs who were awaiting for the appearance of a prophet in Arabia.Note they would never have reverted into Islam if they did doubted on the lineage of prophet Muhammad(PBBUH).
For more info on hanifs ff the link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanif

In my next posting i will give you one more example of a Christian and this is going to be interesting.
Peace
Farouk

 

[farouk]

J2hapydna wrote
"if you have any accounts of the prophet directly meeting with Jews and Christians and them recording his answer, then share it."

Peace upon the seekers of knowledge.
As promised i will discuss the Prophet(PBBUH) meeting with a Christian.
Prophet Muhammad(PBBUH) encounter with a Monk called Bahira.
Monk Bahira was known for his belief that a prophet was soon to appear among the Arabs. Bahira had studied old manuscripts, where he had learned of the coming of a final prophet and he was convinced that this prophet would appear in his own lifetime. Bahira’s attention was struck in particular by a caravan from Mecca which was shaded by a cloud that hovered closely above them. The cloud moved as the caravan moved and did not go any further when they stopped.It was as if it were providing shade for a person or people in the group. When he also noticed that a tree lowered its branches over the caravan to provide further shade he immediately realized that this caravan must contain an extraordinary person or persons. He invited all of the individuals in the caravan to a meal at his place but none of their faces revealed the capacity of the expected Prophet. He inquired if there was anyone who had not joined the meal the answer he received was that Muhammad(PBBUH) had been left behind to watch the caravan. He was keen to see Muhammad(PBBUH) and when he actually saw him he realized that he carried all the signs that the awaited Prophet was to have, as described in his books. He told Muhammad’s(PBBUH) uncle to take him back to Mecca as soon as possible in order to guard him against potential enemies.
This incident is used by some Western scholars as a basis to claim that Prophet Muhammad(PBBUH) learned about the Judeo-Christian tradition from this monk and that he later converted this knowledge into a new religion, i.e. Islam. However it would not be logical or reasonable to adopt such an idea because Prophet Muhammad(PBBUH) was far too young to acquire such an immense knowledge and the conversation between the monk and Muhammad was not a protracted one.
Here is your link..
http://www.deenislam.co.uk/MonkBahira.htm

In my next posting i will conclude,in response to posting 51 by J2hapydna, with a Christian literature.Stay tuned because this is going to give a big knock on the brains.
Peace
Farouk

 

[farouk]

Peace to all.
Today i was supposed to give a final posting on my response to J2hapydna posting 51 but i have decided to delay it because it will be quite unfair of me if i do not give you a version of the Christian literature on Monk Bahira.
At a time when the Christians were reverting into Islam wholesale a document emerged from the Christians which Muslims at the time regarded as a fraud.Note i have no intention of discussing the legitimacy of the document because it will deviate from our main discussion.The document is called the Syriac Manuscript of Mardin.What is of interest in this document to our discussion is the fact that the Christians called Muhammad(PBBUH) from the "sons of Ishmael".
Here is your link.
Note it in pdf so you have to download.
http://www.baylorisr.org/wp-content/uploads/bahkou_monk.pdf
Peace
Farouk