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Ancestry of the prophet
- Thread starter J2hapydna
- Start date
Union
Well-Known Member
[22:78] And strive in His cause as ye ought to strive, (with sincerity and under discipline). He has chosen you, and has imposed no difficulties on you in religion; it is the cult of your father Abraham. It is He Who has named you Muslims, both before and in this (Revelation); that the Messenger may be a witness for you, and ye be witnesses for mankind! So establish regular Prayer, give regular Charity, and hold fast to Allah! He is your Protector - the Best to protect and the Best to help!
A little background story may be helpful also :
[002.124] And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled: He said: I will make thee an Imam to the Nations. He pleaded: And also (Imams) from my offspring! He answered: But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers.
[002.125] Remember We made the House a place of assembly for men and a place of safety; and take ye the station of Abraham as a place of prayer; and We covenanted with Abraham and Ismail, that they should sanctify My House for those who compass it round, or use it as a retreat, or bow, or prostrate themselves (therein in
prayer).
[002.126] And remember Abraham said: My Lord, make this a City of Peace, and feed its people with fruits,-such of them as believe in God and the Last Day. He said: (Yea), and such as reject Faith,-for a while will I grant them their pleasure, but will soon drive them to the torment of Fire,- an evil destination (indeed)!
[002.127] And remember Abraham and Ismail raised the foundations of the House (With this prayer): Our Lord! Accept (this service) from us: For Thou art the All- Hearing, the All-knowing.
[002.128] Our Lord! make of us Muslims, bowing to Thy (Will), and of our progeny a people Muslim, bowing to Thy (will); and show us our place for the celebration of (due) rites; and turn unto us (in Mercy); for Thou art the Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.
[002.129] Our Lord! send amongst them an Apostle of their own, who shall rehearse Thy Signs to them and instruct them in scripture and wisdom, and sanctify them: For Thou art the Exalted in Might, the Wise.
[002.130] And who turns away from the religion of Abraham but such as debase their souls with folly? Him We chose and rendered pure in this world: And he will be in the Hereafter in the ranks of the Righteous.
[002.131] Behold! his Lord said to him: Bow (thy will to Me): He said: I bow (my will) to the Lord and Cherisher of the Universe.
A little background story may be helpful also :
[002.124] And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled: He said: I will make thee an Imam to the Nations. He pleaded: And also (Imams) from my offspring! He answered: But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers.
[002.125] Remember We made the House a place of assembly for men and a place of safety; and take ye the station of Abraham as a place of prayer; and We covenanted with Abraham and Ismail, that they should sanctify My House for those who compass it round, or use it as a retreat, or bow, or prostrate themselves (therein in
prayer).
[002.126] And remember Abraham said: My Lord, make this a City of Peace, and feed its people with fruits,-such of them as believe in God and the Last Day. He said: (Yea), and such as reject Faith,-for a while will I grant them their pleasure, but will soon drive them to the torment of Fire,- an evil destination (indeed)!
[002.127] And remember Abraham and Ismail raised the foundations of the House (With this prayer): Our Lord! Accept (this service) from us: For Thou art the All- Hearing, the All-knowing.
[002.128] Our Lord! make of us Muslims, bowing to Thy (Will), and of our progeny a people Muslim, bowing to Thy (will); and show us our place for the celebration of (due) rites; and turn unto us (in Mercy); for Thou art the Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.
[002.129] Our Lord! send amongst them an Apostle of their own, who shall rehearse Thy Signs to them and instruct them in scripture and wisdom, and sanctify them: For Thou art the Exalted in Might, the Wise.
[002.130] And who turns away from the religion of Abraham but such as debase their souls with folly? Him We chose and rendered pure in this world: And he will be in the Hereafter in the ranks of the Righteous.
[002.131] Behold! his Lord said to him: Bow (thy will to Me): He said: I bow (my will) to the Lord and Cherisher of the Universe.
union said:
I have seen this verse. It seems to be saying (to me at least) that the descendants of Ishmael would have an apostle of their own. Since Muhammad was born among the Arabs and spoke Arabic (not Jews and Christians), he was their own. I don’t think any Jews or Christians have claimed they sent him. So, I think this promise has been fulfilled.
Now I am wondering where is the verse that says this prophet was from the line of Ishmael (and not Israel)?
You see the Bible says that there would be a time in which the Israelites and Arabs would mix/ merge and a prophet would rise among them from the Israelite line. So, I'm wondering where is the verse that says Muhammed was from the Ishmaelite line and not the Israelite line?
Thanks.
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Repox
Truth Seeker
Isn't this a tough assignment? How can you trace the ancestry of a the warlord Muhammad who lived more than 2700 years after Abraham? Did he have Jewish pedigree? If he could be traced to Ishmael, what were his ancestors names, or names that could be traced back to that era? Also, since Muhammad's God is Allah, the issue may not even be related to Abraham, the Jewish Lord, or to the Jewish Bible.
Isn't Mohammad's god Allah? How is that related to the Jewish Lord?
Isn't Mohammad's god Allah? How is that related to the Jewish Lord?
Hi Repox,
As far as the relation between Arabs and Jews is concerned, Orientalists have suggested that the populations were unrelated:
"The question of whether the Jews of Medina were indeed the descendants of ethnic Jews or of converts to Judaism, has been widely discussed. In Noldeke's view, if the Jews of Arabia had been the offspring of immigrants, they could not have been so sucessfully absorbed into the tribal society of the Arabs. He was particularly impressed by their contribution to Arab poetry, which he considered a genuine expression of the Arab spirit, devoid of any Jewish elements. Winckler strongly defended that view, arguing (against Wellhausen), that the Jews, who were people of a higher social level, could not have become wholly assimilated into Arab society, just as the European immigrants in North America could not become Indians. Lammens also felt that the Jews, representing a loftier degree of civilization, had the advantage over their Bedouin neighbours in this respect, influencing many of them to accept Judaism."- Pg 8. Jews in Islamic countries in the Middle Ages by Moshe Gil, David Strassler. Tel Aviv University 1997.
So, even the most liberal Orientalist historians believed that Jews and Arabs had not shared a common ancestor in the last 15,000 years or so (in the same way that Europeans and Native Americans had not shared an ancestor). So, I understand your skepticism.
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Union
Well-Known Member
Did you by any chance miss the verse 22.78 I mentioned at beginning and henceforth linking it with your verse of interest ?
Union
Well-Known Member
Please translate Arabic ALLAH in Hebrew and Aramaic .
The OP was asking something else than what you said . Whatsoever there are family tree of Prophet Muhammad reaching to Prophet Abaraham can be found every here and there .
Repox said:
The warlord belonged to the tribe of Banu Hashim that still exists among the Arabs from the clan of Quraysh. The Jewish descendants of Aaron, brother of Moses still exist as a separate clan among the Jews. So we can compare their Y DNA.
The field of population genetics can tell us a lot about common ancestry. The Genographic Project at National Geographic is a good example of what can been achieved. I don’t know if you saw the PBS special, the Journey of Man. It was very educational.
Here are a few informative links:
https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/
http://www.nationalgeographic.com/explorers/bios/spencer-wells/
If the Arabs were unrelated to the Jews as the Orientalists had been suggesting then the two populations would be completely unrelated just as the Europeans are unrelated to the Native Americans for tens of thousands of years.
If the Arabs had broken away from Abraham 4,200 years ago then scientists would be able to date the break away from the family tree i.e. age the most recent common paternal ancestor to that time period. In addition one could expect to find SNP mutation or two separating the Aaronites from the Arabs. These would be SNPs that developed in the Aaronite line during the period between Abraham and the Exodus when Aaron, father of the Israelite priesthood was appointed high priest.
If the Arabs had broken off from Aaronites after the clan had formed they would have to share ALL the common SNP mutations right up to the terminal SNP of the Aaronites.
We should also be able to compare the Ishmaelite DNA with non-Jewish populations to make sure that no other non Jewish populations were more closely related to the Aaronites. There should not be any except perhaps the 12 lost tribes and the Edomites.
Of course DNA alone is not enough, one also needs to have some historical understanding of how this would have come about.
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Hi Union,
I agree the Quran is suggesting he was the descendant of Abraham. However, my question is where does it say in the Quran, he is the descendant of Ishmael and not Israel (Jacob)? I am asking because my study of the Bible and Israelite history suggests he was an Aaronite. In addition, the DNA evidence seems to be pointing in this direction too.
Thanks.
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Union
Well-Known Member
The messenger (Prophet Muhammad) and the Muslim nation that time was the Progeny of Prophet Abraham [ref. 22.78] ...................(1)
Prophet Abraham and Ishmael prayed to make that Muslim nation from their Progeny . [ref.2.128]................(2)
Prophet Abraham and Ishmael prayed to send that Messenger from their Progeny . [ref.2.129]...................(3)
Linking (1), (2) and (3) , we can safely deduce that Prophet Muhammad was the offspring of Abraham through Ishmael .
Union said:
My reading of the verse is:
Raise up in them, a Messenger from them who will recite …verses and will teach to them the Book and the wisdom and purify them.
I am not sure it makes grammatical sense to say Raise up in them a Messenger from them ... but even if it did we would then have two readings. So how do we know which reading is right?
Thanks.
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Union
Well-Known Member
What is that paradox of two readings ?
Repox said:
I would prefer if we limit our discussion to the topic of his ancestry.
As I said, I can understand your skepticism based on the writings of Orientalists, such as western, secular historians that I quoted. However, modern DNA research is bringing forth new evidence and we cant push it aside. it turns out Arab and Jewish myths were closer to the truth than the secular historians imagined.
The bottom line is that geneticists are saying the Cohanim (descendants of Aaron, brother of Moses) are paternally more closely related to the Quraysh and Banu Hashim than possibly any other non-Jewish population on earth. The estimates are they shared a common ancestor less than 4,200 years ago. Does that make the Quraysh Ishmaelite or Israelite? You tell me.
So, far Quraysh and Cohanim appear to be so closely related that scientists have been unable to find a terminal SNP that distinguishes the Cohanim from the Quraysh / Banu Hashim. In other words, there is a strong possibility the Quraysh and Banu Hashim may actually be descendants of the Jewish priesthood.
It is because of these results that I am on this board asking whether the Quran has specific verses stating prophet M was the descendant of Ishmael.
Repox said:
The evidence points towards Aaronite more than Ishmaelite. So it would not give credibility to the Muslim claim.
As I see it:
The fact is that Quraysh, Cohanim and the Cohanim within themselves all share the same most recent paternal common ancestor (MRCA) who lived approx. 3,500 years bp. This is strange because normally we would expect the Cohenim to have a younger most recent common ancestor (MRCA) than with the Quraysh because Cohens are all descendants of Aaron who came after Abraham. However, this is not what is showing up in the genetic tests.
The conservative estimate is that the MRCA of these people lived about 3,500 years bp. The liberal estimate is that this MRCA is a lot younger. So we are not talking about people who shared a common ancestor in the days of Abraham. This MRCA is someone much younger than Abraham.
Another reason to think Quraysh are descendants of the priesthood is that the Cohanim do not have the genetic diversity one expects from a clan its age, but combined with the Quraysh they do. This can be explained by the fact that high priest Onias III had split away from the Hasmonean Jews around 150 BC and became busy constructing Kabbas around Egypt to fulfill Isaiah 19 and the Jews lost track of them. On the other hand, it is very interesting that the Quraysh is that not only too young to make it back to Ishmael, but estimates suggest the age of Quraysh is about 2,100 years bp. In other words it formed around the same time that Onias IV left mainstream Judaism. What appears to have happened is that the family took over the Kabba in Mecca after the Heliopolis temple was destroyed by the Romans in the days of Jesus. Onias’ hallmark was a Minaret that replaced the menorah and a lamp hanging on a string between poles inside the Holy of Holy. Ditto Kabba. His goal was to unite the Egyptian and Assyrians with the Israelites (himself) to fulfil Isaiah 19. Ditto Islam.
In conclusion, both genetic evidence from several different angles and history fit like a glove. The Quraysh are not Ishmaelites they are most likely descendants of Aaronite priests, i.e descendants of the high priest Onias IV ministering to Ishmaelite Arabs at an altar on the eastern border of Egypt on a line between upper and lower Egypt as promised in Isaiah 19.
It is more than likely that many Jews and Christians who accepted Islam probably thought M was the great one described in Isaiah 19:19 because it and Matt 24 tell of a time similar to that of M’s of a great plague rising up the sea thru Egypt, the waterway drying up, the sun going dark temperatures falling etc and then these three nations united in religion and language in the worship of the God of Abraham. Some bought the story some didn't. The rest of the Jews and Christians decided he was an imposter and are awaiting their messiah patiently.
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Repox said:
You can definitely read Isaiah 19 and Matt 24 and see how much hard work he put into making sure he established the altar and sacrifices united the three nations (Egyptian, Assyrian and Israelite his own) in religion and language at a time when the plague was raging thru Egypt and waterways drying up and the sun went dark and temperatures had fallen etc. So, he cared enough to make the promises in Isaiah and Matt come true.
Repox said:
Both names YHWH and Allaha were used for God by the Jews. However, I am guessing YHWH was a name that had been compromised by the Jews and been affiliated with pagan worship for centuries, even before the time of Jesus. So, it had a long pagan history. Therefore it would have been very difficult to salvage that name for M. Allah on the other hand, was under pressure of being compromised in Arabia in the days of Muhammad but it had a long pristine history. Even in the days of M, it was still regarded as a foreign god by the pagans, who saw him as a One Invisible master god of the Kabba. He was not playing with the other gods although the pagans wanted him to play with them (can he take a wife, can he have a daughter? etc). This is probably why I think there have never been any images/ idols with the name Allah on them found any where in the world. YHWH on the other had already become a pagan god centuries earlier, before the time of Jesus and then among the Greek and Romans who associated him with their gods.
It can probably be argued that that Allaha hadn't been surrendered to the pagans because this name was being closely guarded by the high priests themselves.
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Thank you. I keep up with new SNP discoveries and the science behind it. It is a hobby of mine. I am a member of the National Geographic, Genographic Project. I was tested by Benett Greenspan’s company FamilytreeDNA that is used by the Genographic Project for DNA testing. This lab is run Professor Michael Hammer, he is a Cohen himself, pioneer in the field and the discoverer of the Cohen Modal Haplotype (CHM). Dr. Spencer Wells of the Genographic Project is an advisor to this company:
Family Tree DNA - Who's Who At Family Tree DNA
The recently discovered Cohanim terminal SNP is YSC 234. It was born about 3.6 k years bp (less than 4k and close to 3.5 k y bp). It was discovered in the last few months of 2013, so it doesn’t show up in lot of the official literature. However, you can find references to the slightly older Cohen terminal SNP L862, also known as J1c3d, currently dated as 4,900 years in this wiki article:
Y-chromosomal Aaron - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
You can also find results of Quraysh here, where you can see they are also positive for the Cohanim terminal SNP J1c3d:
Family Tree DNA - Qurayish Tribe Y-DNA J1c3d (+L858)
In this way you can see how the Quraysh share the old terminal SNP with of the Cohanim.
Unfortunately, what you cannot see is the exciting news about how the Qurasyh also share YSC 234, the new Cohanim terminal SNP that is less the 4 k y bp and close to 3.5 k y bp because it is so new. However, I should be able to share chatter on the internet between researchers, geneticists and participants that these discoveries are real, if you are interested.
Separately, my name J2hapydna is a reference to the fact that I belong to the J2 haplogroup Y DNA subclade. About 15% of the Cohanim and Saudi men belong to this J2a (J-M410) minor line. It dates back to about the time of Abraham among the Cohanim according to the wiki article.
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Repox said:
Most of these ideas about Alla and ila being Allah were based on a false assumption that Arabs were unrelated to the Jews and possibly descendants of people in those old middle eastern societies that worshipped Alla and ila etc. However, now that we know the Quraysh are closely related to the Cohanim those ideas don’t carry any weight. What the critics of Islam need to provide now is evidence that the Jewish god, Elahh was being worshipped as an idol by Jews for one to think that Allah of Islam is a pagan deity.
'elahh (Aramaic) - Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon - King James Version
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