Ancestry of the prophet

[Union]

Do you mean Jesus?

I agree with your comment. The Quran reminds the prophet that among his people are those who pay lip service to belief in the Bible and The Quran and want to continue following the unjust pagan rules and laws of the past (TAGHOOT).

4:60 "Do you [Prophet] not see those who claim to believe in what has been sent down to you (QURAN), and in what was sent down before you (BIBLE), yet still want to turn to unjust tyrants (TAGHOOT) for judgment, although they have been ordered to reject them? Satan wants to lead them far astray."

Surat An-Nisa' [4:60] - The Noble Qur'an - ?????? ??????

Interesting . Thanks for sharing this .

 

[J2hapydna]

What is that paradox of two readings ?

Re: Raise up in them, a Messenger from *them* who will recite …verses of Allah and will teach to them the Book and the wisdom and purify them.

So my question is who are the *them* in “a Messenger from them”?

Who are the minhum?

Are they

1. members of the Umat of Ishmael in whom he will arise?

or

2. A people who recite verses, teach the book and purify. They will be living within the Umat of Ishmael.

The verse seems to be simply saying he will be from them who will recite …the verses .. teach .. the Book … wisdom … purify … and rise in the Umat of Ishmael.

 

[Union]

Re: Raise up in them, a Messenger from *them* who will recite …verses of Allah and will teach to them the Book and the wisdom and purify them.

So my question is who are the *them* in “a Messenger from them”?

Who are the minhum?

Are they

1. members of the Umat of Ishmael in whom he will arise?

or

2. A people who recite verses, teach the book and purify. They will be living within the Umat of Ishmael.

The verse seems to be simply saying he will be from them who will recite …the verses .. teach .. the Book … wisdom … purify … and rise in the Umat of Ishmael.

The previous verse explains that :

[2:128]"Our Lord, make us submitters to You, and from our descendants let there be a community of submitters to You. Teach us the rites of our religion, and redeem us. You are the Redeemer, Most Merciful.

Hence the messenger of verse 2.129 is from the descendants of Abraham and Ishmael as per 2.128 .

 

[J2hapydna]

[2:128] "Our Lord, make us submitters to You, and from our descendants let there be a community of submitters to You. Teach us the rites of our religion, and redeem us. You are the Redeemer, Most Merciful.
Hence the messenger of verse 2.129 is from the descendants of Abraham and Ishmael as per 2.128.

The community they form is as umma not a sha'b. An ummah can have descendants of other men, but they must be socially and culturally integrated with the larger community. In contrast, Sha’b is a tribe with a common ancestry:

Ummah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[J2hapydna]

I read those DNA articles and am not surprised about linkages between Jews and Muslims. After all, they shared the same land, so you would expect them to intermarry.

One would expect intermarriage, although it doesn’t appear to have occurred in Europe. For example, there isn’t much YSC 234 in the non-Jewish European population. Also, there aren’t many European and North African male lines among the Cohanim. This is quite surprising considering the history of persecution of Jews during the Diaspora, Inquisition and Holocaust etc which could have resulted in introgression thru illegitimacy, slavery, adoption and rape etc. So, yes there has been some introgression, but not on any large scale in Europe.

The situation in Arabia is very different, almost shocking and unbelievable, as 50% of the entire population descends from YSC 234 and another 15% is J2, the same as the Cohanim. It is as if the old inhabitants of the region were wiped out and the Aaronites emerged, like a starburst, onto the scene to become the dominant group in the population.

 

[Union]

The community they form is as umma not a sha'b. An ummah can have descendants of other men, but they must be socially and culturally integrated with the larger community. In contrast, Sha’b is a tribe with a common ancestry:

Ummah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What about ذُرِّيَّتِنَا in the verse ? It means offspring / descendants etc.

 

[J2hapydna]

What about ذُرِّيَّتِنَا in the verse ? It means offspring / descendants etc.

Hi Union,
Yes, promise is for the descendants (seed) of Ishmael i.e. the tribe (sha’b) of Ismail to become founders of this nation (Ummah). Therefore, this founding tribe (sha’b) culturally, religiously, linguistically and socially defines this nation (ummat). However, to gain membership to this ummah (nation) one doesn’t need to have Ishmaelite ancestry. The Ishmaelite sha’b can allow others to be grafted to this metophorical Ishmaelite plant and become full members of their ummah, by becoming socially and culturally assimilated with them.

Otherwise, if what you are suggesting was true and the promise was only to the descendants of Ismail to become a Muslim nation, then how are you a member of this Muslim nation? Are you a descendant of Ishmail? Or are you are a second class citizen of this nation? Or are you saying that Allah is no longer honoring his promises? Or are you saying that he has decided to change the promise because he couldn’t see the future? So, I hope you see that you would raise all kinds of problems in our current understanding of what is Islam and the type of ummah that was promised to Abraham and Ishmael by suggesting that membership to this ummah is exclusively based on ancestry.

By the way, what I am describing is nothing controversial or new. Arabs understand this concept (as shared in the link) and so do other Semitics, such as the Jewish people (nation of Yahudah). They are also formed around the seed or descendants of Judah (ancestral tribe/ sha’b of Yahudah or Bani Yahudah). However, notice that the Aaronite priesthood is a part of this Jewish nation because they are living within them and perfectly assimilated with them, but they are not members of Bani Yahudah (not seed/ descendant of Judah). They are Alay Imran. Similarly, any converts to Judaism who adopt the religious, cultural and social values of these people also become full members of the ummah of Yahudah (Jewish nation), but they don’t become members of, for example, the sha’b of prophet Harun (Aaron) that forms the Aaronite priesthood. Similarly, they cannot become members of the Levites by converting.

 

[Union]

Hi Union,
Yes, promise is for the descendants (seed) of Ishmael i.e. the tribe (sha’b) of Ismail to become founders of this nation (Ummah). Therefore, this founding tribe (sha’b) culturally, religiously, linguistically and socially defines this nation (ummat). However, to gain membership to this ummah (nation) one doesn’t need to have Ishmaelite ancestry. The Ishmaelite sha’b can allow others to be grafted to this metophorical Ishmaelite plant and become full members of their ummah, by becoming socially and culturally assimilated with them.

Otherwise, if what you are suggesting was true and the promise was only to the descendants of Ismail to become a Muslim nation, then how are you a member of this Muslim nation? Are you a descendant of Ishmail? Or are you are a second class citizen of this nation? Or are you saying that Allah is no longer honoring his promises? Or are you saying that he has decided to change the promise because he couldn’t see the future? So, I hope you see that you would raise all kinds of problems in our current understanding of what is Islam and the type of ummah that was promised to Abraham and Ishmael by suggesting that membership to this ummah is exclusively based on ancestry.

By the way, what I am describing is nothing controversial or new. Arabs understand this concept (as shared in the link) and so do other Semitics, such as the Jewish people (nation of Yahudah). They are also formed around the seed or descendants of Judah (ancestral tribe/ sha’b of Yahudah or Bani Yahudah). However, notice that the Aaronite priesthood is a part of this Jewish nation because they are living within them and perfectly assimilated with them, but they are not members of Bani Yahudah (not seed/ descendant of Judah). They are Alay Imran. Similarly, any converts to Judaism who adopt the religious, cultural and social values of these people also become full members of the ummah of Yahudah (Jewish nation), but they don’t become members of, for example, the sha’b of prophet Harun (Aaron) that forms the Aaronite priesthood. Similarly, they cannot become members of the Levites by converting.

Thanks a lot for your reply .I think you though that according to Qur’an , the offspring of the Ishmael are the only Muslim and which is not true . Prophet Abraham and Ishamel Prayed to have another Muslim nation through their lineage in the land of Mecca where they together founded the Shrine , e.g., Ka’ba and that's all. That means the offspring of Ishmael was another nation of Muslim community in the Arab peninsula , not one and only .

Interesting to know that Jacob , the founder of Judaism, also defined his offspring as Muslim :

[2:132]Moreover, Abraham exhorted his children to do the same, and so did Jacob: "O my children, GOD has pointed out the religion for you; do not die except as Muslimun"

Moses called his people Muslim :

[10:84]Moses said, "O my people, if you have really believed in GOD, then put your trust in Him, if you are really Muslimins ."

Jesus instructed his followers to be Muslim :

[3:52]When Jesus sensed their disbelief, he said, "Who are my supporters towards GOD?" The disciples said, "We are GOD's supporters; we believe in GOD, and bear witness that we are Muslimuns."

Another verse rationalizing the whole issue that a person becomes Muslim when they confess regardless the race and family tree :

[46:15] We enjoined the human being to honor his parents. His mother bore him arduously, gave birth to him arduously, and took intimate care of him for thirty months. When he reaches maturity, and reaches the age of forty, he should say, "My Lord, direct me to appreciate the blessings You have bestowed upon me and upon my parents, and to do the righteous works that please You. Let my children be righteous as well. I have repented to You; I am a Muslim."

[3:102] O you who believe, you shall observe GOD as He should be observed, and do not die except as Muslimun.

I appreciate your effort to link Prophet Muhammad’s family tree with Aaron and I have no problem whatsoever if that was true , but what we need is solid evidence , especially from the Qur’an , which by far I never come across . Rather his family link to Abraham through Ishmael is more evident and without contradiction whatsoever elements may involve in this issue .

Thanks my brother .

 

[J2hapydna]

I appreciate your effort to link Prophet Muhammad’s family tree with Aaron and I have no problem whatsoever if that was true, but what we need is solid evidence, especially from the Qur’an , which by far I never come across . Rather his family link to Abraham through Ishmael is more evident and without contradiction whatsoever elements may involve in this issue

Salaam,

Thank you for your time and assistance. I agree the Quran does not explicitly say he was the descendant of Aaron. It is the Bible and the genetic evidence that suggests it. I just wanted to be sure the Quran didn't explicitly say he was a descendant of Ishmael.

 

[Union]

Salaam,

Thank you for your time and assistance. I agree the Quran does not explicitly say he was the descendant of Aaron. It is the Bible and the genetic evidence that suggests it. I just wanted to be sure the Quran didn't explicitly say he was a descendant of Ishmael.

Its a pleasure to exchange views with you bro . Can you provide me information from Bible first how this is linked between Muhammad and Aaron , unless you posted before and I missed it .

I am really interested .:yes:

 

[J2hapydna]

Its a pleasure to exchange views with you bro . Can you provide me information from Bible first how this is linked between Muhammad and Aaron , unless you posted before and I missed it .

I am really interested .:yes:

Salam Union,

I think post 16 gives a nice overview.

I think a good starting point to begin a study of the Bible for a Muslim would be to go to the 19th book of the Jewish Bible "Tanakh" i.e (Isaiah)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Testament

Then, look at verse 19:19.

 

[J2hapydna]

You can read how the historian Josephus and the Jewish Talmud records that high priest Onias IV and his family had started building altars / temples (Kabbas) in and around Egypt to fulfill Isaiah 19, after the Hasmonean Jews had kicked his family out of the Jerusalem temple, a little bit before the coming of Jesus:

LEONTOPOLIS - JewishEncyclopedia.com

 

[J2hapydna]

Isaiah 19 NIV - A Prophecy Against Egypt - A prophecy - Bible Gateway

Regarding Isaiah 19

This chapter is about Egypt and Egyptians (not Judah and the Israelites in Canaan and Jerusalem). It basically suggests there will be a time when:

There will be wars.
There will be a plague in Egypt.
The sea / rivers of egypt will fail.
The plants will die.
The fishermen will cry.
There will be an altar on the border of Egypt, between the two Egypts (plural Misraim). (There is an upper and lower Egypt).
The great one will rise among the Egyptians.
The Egyptians will accept the God of Abraham and perform sacrifices (Hajj)
The Egyptians, Assyrians and the Israelites will become united.
The plague will end.

This is the prophecy that Onias IV was hoping that one of his descendants would fulfill some day.

 

[J2hapydna]

In Zechariah 3 there is a description of a future Aaronite high priest (the descendant of high priest Joshua and Onias IV) who will stand next to the Branch (Branch is a reference to the Davidic messiah, i.e. Jesus to Christians and Muslims):
Zechariah 3 NIV - Clean Garments for the High Priest - Bible Gateway

As you can see this is someone who resembles the prophet. However, he is an Aaronite priest, the descendant of Aaron, Joshua and Onias IV etc. He will stand before Satan and the Angel of God. Satan will be rebuked (7 times Satan is rebuked during Jamarat in Hajj). Then, the vision describes how, this priest will be snatched from the fire (of paganism), his filthy pagan clothes will be torn away and he will be dressed in clean clothes. It describes how a stone with seven eyes (Hajr Aswad actually has seven stones embedded in it that look like eyes), is placed before him, as a sign of God’s promise that sins will be removed from the land in a single day and the descendants of high priest Joshua will govern God’s house (Kabba) and have charge of his courts forever.

Once again this is a promise about a filthy priest who is purified to the descendants of Aaron, high priest Joshua and Onias IV etc not Ishmael. Although, Isaiah 19 clearly says that he will rise among the pagan Egyptians and mix with the Assyrians. Once you know of this promise it become easy to understand what the Quran is saying about the promise to the descendants of Ishmael.

In addition to the fact that Onias IV believed the great one described in Isaiah 19 would arise from his descendants, we can read about the Israelite expectation of a great Aaronite priestly prophet mentioned in the Dead Sea Scrolls:
Waiting for Two Messiahs | TaborBlog

 

[Union]

Thanks J2hapyDNA for sharing your assertion on the matter . Though I don't see much clarity in proving the point , but still these information are very interesting . Thanks again .

 

[J2hapydna]

Thanks J2hapyDNA for sharing your assertion on the matter . Though I don't see much clarity in proving the point , but still these information are very interesting . Thanks again .

You are welcome. You are right it is just a theory. By the way, are you saying you cannot see how the Israelites were expecting an Aaronite priest to rise among the Egyptians, establish an altar on which sacrifices will be made in an age when there will be a plague; and at that time the Israelites, Egyptians and Assyrians will unite in the worship of God of Abraham? Or are you saying you cannot see there was a high priest who was building such altars to fulfill such prophecies in Isaiah 19 that was kicked out of the Jerusalem temple by the Hasmonean Jews? Or are you saying you cannot see how the Quraysh is the same age as when this priesthood left Judaism around the time of Jesus and genetically matches the Jewish priesthood? So, can you give me a little bit of feedback on which point you think needs more clarity because there are a lot of points I am making, not a single point? Thanks.

 

[Union]

You are welcome. You are right it is just a theory. By the way, are you saying you cannot see how the Israelites were expecting an Aaronite priest to rise among the Egyptians, establish an altar on which sacrifices will be made in an age when there will be a plague; and at that time the Israelites, Egyptians and Assyrians will unite in the worship of God of Abraham? Or are you saying you cannot see there was a high priest who was building such altars to fulfill such prophecies in Isaiah 19 that was kicked out of the Jerusalem temple by the Hasmonean Jews? Or are you saying you cannot see how the Quraysh is the same age as when this priesthood left Judaism around the time of Jesus and genetically matches the Jewish priesthood? So, can you give me a little bit of feedback on which point you think needs more clarity because there are a lot of points I am making, not a single point? Thanks.

Forgive me if I may not able to grasp something . Okay , lets talk about that 'Quraysh' part . How you link the tribe of Prophet , e.g., Quraysh with Jewish priesthood ? The clue for tribe Quraysh is they were Arabs and they stayed in Mecca .Lets match these points with Biblical verses first and then your own interpretation .

 

[J2hapydna]

Forgive me if I may not able to grasp something . Okay , lets talk about that 'Quraysh' part . How you link the tribe of Prophet , e.g., Quraysh with Jewish priesthood ? The clue for tribe Quraysh is they were Arabs and they stayed in Mecca .Lets match these points with Biblical verses first and then your own interpretation .

Salam,

You may want to look at post 19. It is a follow up to post 16. Then, if you have questions I can answer them.

 

[J2hapydna]

My main point is based on the principle outlined in fact #30:


Family Tree DNA - FAQ Answers

Scientists have been unable to come up with a terminal SNP for the Cohanim that separates them from the Quraysh and Banu Hashim, although, the Aaronite clan formed more than 400 years after the descendants of Ishmael separated from the Israelite line. In addition, the age of the Aaronite and the Arab clans separately are not enough to get them back to Aaron or Ishmael. However, when combined they can get us back to Aaron.

 

[farouk]

The evidence points towards Aaronite more than Ishmaelite. So it would not give credibility to the Muslim claim.

As I see it:

The fact is that Quraysh, Cohanim and the Cohanim within themselves all share the same most recent paternal common ancestor (MRCA) who lived approx. 3,500 years bp. This is strange because normally we would expect the Cohenim to have a younger most recent common ancestor (MRCA) than with the Quraysh because Cohens are all descendants of Aaron who came after Abraham. However, this is not what is showing up in the genetic tests.

The conservative estimate is that the MRCA of these people lived about 3,500 years bp. The liberal estimate is that this MRCA is a lot younger. So we are not talking about people who shared a common ancestor in the days of Abraham. This MRCA is someone much younger than Abraham.

Another reason to think Quraysh are descendants of the priesthood is that the Cohanim do not have the genetic diversity one expects from a clan its age, but combined with the Quraysh they do. This can be explained by the fact that high priest Onias III had split away from the Hasmonean Jews around 150 BC and became busy constructing Kabbas around Egypt to fulfill Isaiah 19 and the Jews lost track of them. On the other hand, it is very interesting that the Quraysh is that not only too young to make it back to Ishmael, but estimates suggest the age of Quraysh is about 2,100 years bp. In other words it formed around the same time that Onias IV left mainstream Judaism. What appears to have happened is that the family took over the Kabba in Mecca after the Heliopolis temple was destroyed by the Romans in the days of Jesus. Onias’ hallmark was a Minaret that replaced the menorah and a lamp hanging on a string between poles inside the Holy of Holy. Ditto Kabba. His goal was to unite the Egyptian and Assyrians with the Israelites (himself) to fulfil Isaiah 19. Ditto Islam.

In conclusion, both genetic evidence from several different angles and history fit like a glove. The Quraysh are not Ishmaelites they are most likely descendants of Aaronite priests, i.e descendants of the high priest Onias IV ministering to Ishmaelite Arabs at an altar on the eastern border of Egypt on a line between upper and lower Egypt as promised in Isaiah 19.

It is more than likely that many Jews and Christians who accepted Islam probably thought M was the great one described in Isaiah 19:19 because it and Matt 24 tell of a time similar to that of M’s of a great plague rising up the sea thru Egypt, the waterway drying up, the sun going dark temperatures falling etc and then these three nations united in religion and language in the worship of the God of Abraham. Some bought the story some didn't. The rest of the Jews and Christians decided he was an imposter and are awaiting their messiah patiently.

Peace to all.
J2hapydna
Just a qusetion before answering your concerns.
Who's blood lineage does one follow in DNA testing?
Father or Mother?

Tks in advance.
Peace
Farouk