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Ancestry of the prophet

farouk

Active Member
Peace upon the seekers of knowledge.
J2hapydna wrote
"You have proved that the Christians chronicled that this is what the Arabs were saying. It doesn't mean these Christians spoke to the prophet and independently verified from him if he was claiming to be the son of Ishmael or not".
I have dealt with this in post 55 in detail.

J2hapydna wrote.
"So the first question could be, how did the Arabs know if he was the descendant of Ishmael?"
This was dealt in post 56 and 57.

J2hapydna wrote
"We have examined the Quran on this thread and it calls the Arabs the Ummah of Ishmael, which can loosely be translated to sons of Ishmael. However, we know that members of an Ummah don't have to be the patrilineal genetic descendants of the founding tribe. By marrying their daughters, learning their culture and language etc people can be grafted to the Ummah without being a paternal descendant of the founding tribe. So, we can understand how based on the Quran the Arabs could claim to be the Ummah of Ishmael or loosely sons of Ishmael. However, it is not clear, at least based on the Quran, how they could claim the prophet was the patrilineal descendant of Ishmael".
This was dealt with in detail in post 57.
J2hapydna wrote

"So, the next question is, did the Arabs learn it from an oral tradition of the prophet i.e. Hadith or was it something they assumed because of their pre Islamic traditions? "
Since you posted your concerns in the Quranist Dir i am not sure if we should discuss the Hadith.Nontheless if you insist and there is no objection from Quranist then only i am prepared to refer to the Hadith.
J2hapydna wrote

"To answer this question, if you have any accounts of the prophet directly meeting with Jews and Christians and them recording his answer, then share it. Otherwise, what you have are only third party accounts of Jews and Christians about what the Arabs were claiming. They only substantiate what we have already determined to be true i.e. the Arabs were claiming it. We don't know why they were claiming it, but we do know it wasn't because it was written in the Quran. Does that sound fair?"
I have dealt with all these concerns in post 56,58,59,60.
So far as "third party accounts" this will be dealt with in my posting 62
.

Peace
Farouk
 
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farouk

Active Member
Peace upon the seekers of Truth.
Continued from post 61.
Let me start with few verses from the Noble Quraan.
Verse 21:18
" bal naqdhifu bil Haq-qi 'Alal baaTili fa yadmaguhuu fa idhaa huwa zaahiq* wa lakumul waylu mim-maa taSifuun".
Translation
"Nay, We hurl the Truth against falsehood, and it knocks out its brain, and behold, falsehood doth perish! Ah! woe be to you for the (false) things ye ascribe (to Us)".
Verse 2:120
"Walan tarda AAanka alyahoodu walaannasara hatta tattabiAAamillatahum qul inna huda Allahi huwa alhudawala-ini ittabaAAta ahwaahum baAAda allathee jaakamina alAAilmi ma laka mina Allahi min waliyyin walanaseer".
"Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion. Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance." Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou find neither Protector nor helper against Allah".
Verse 2:146
"Allatheena ataynahumualkitaba yaAArifoonahu kama yaAArifoona abnaahumwa-inna fareeqan minhum layaktumoona alhaqqa wahumyaAAlamoon".

"The people of the Book know this as they know their own sons; but some of them conceal the truth which they themselves know".

The above are beautiful verses from the Noble Quraan and are the words of the Almighty God which speaks for itself.Let me conclude my response of J2hapydna posting 51 by refering you to Revelation of the Pseudo-Methodius.
This literature was orginally attributed to Methodius of Patara.He was a Bishop who died in the early 4th century CE.The literature represents a Byzantine apocalyptic tradition and it exercised an important influence on Western Christian thought.
The contents of the revelation.
"The manuscript begins with a history of the world, starting with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, through to the Muslim conquests, and into the end-times. The text says the “sons of Ishmael”, that is Muslims, will emerge from the desert of Ethribus to inflict God’s punishment upon the Christians who slipped into depravity".

Whats important in our discussion is an apocalypse from the 4th century is refering to":sons of Ishmael".The word "Ethribus" actually is refering to Yathrib present day Medina.
J2hapydna the Revelation of the Pseudo-Methodius answers your concerns so far as" third party account" is concerned.Bishop Sebos was learned as a Bishop and he must have studyed the revelations of Pseudo.Hence he knew from his study's that there is going to be Prophet that is going to appear from the "sons of Ishmael" in Arabia and they are going to invade Syria.Well not only Sebos knew in fact all the learned Christians in Syria should have known because the revelations was an apocalyse.
J2hapydna i have proved to you beyond reasonable doubt that Prophet Muhammad(PBBUH) was from the lineage of Prophet Ishmael(PBBUH) from all Jewish, Christian sources and also from the Noble Quraan.Note i can give you much,much more but honestly i gave you enough and its about time that we start discussing your main concern and that is DNA.
Peace
Farouk
 
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farouk

Active Member
Peace upon the truth seekers.
J2hapydna just to let you know that as Muslims and followers of the religion of Islam the foundation of our faith is based on truth.In Islam if any follower has a slightest doubt so far as the concept of Almighty God or any doubt so far as Muhammad(PBBuh) being a Prophet then it simply means that he has left the fold of Islam.Hence our foundation is based on truth and there is absolutely no place for doubt,falsehood,speculation and conjecture.
Today i wish to discuss your DNA concern.
The following is a link that you gave us from your posting no 19.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosomal_Aaron

What we read on this site is that the Jewish priesthood (refered as Cohen or Kohen) has been patrilineal.In simple launguage it means the lineage or descent is based through the fathers line that is from father to son.Hence if Prophet Aaron (PBBUH) DNA was for for example J1-P58 then it simply means all and i mean all(no exceptions) must have the same DNA.
First question.
Why do the Cohen have more that one DNA signature?
Second question.
If we know the DNA signature of Prophet Aaron(PBBUH) then does it mean his brother Moses(PBBUH),his father Amram,his grand-father Kohath,his great-grandfather levi should have the same DNA signatures?Please give us a full explanation if your answer is in the negative.
Third question.
How many generations does it take for genetic signatures to change?
Final Question.
"One source of early confusion was a widespread popular notion that only Cohens or only Jews could have the Cohen Modal Haplotype. It is now clear that this is not the case. The Cohen Modal Haplotype (CMH), whilst notably frequent amongst Cohens, is also far from unusual in the general populations of haplogroups J1 and J2 with no particular link to the Cohen ancestry. These haplogroups occur widely throughout the Middle East and beyond.[9][10] Thus, while many Cohens have haplotypes close to the CMH, a greater number of such haplotypes worldwide belong to people with no likely[clarification needed] Cohen connection at all."

The above is from the link that you gave us.Please explain why you connect the Qurayish tribe to the Cohen when the very info from your link tells us the opposite?

Note the questions are simple and being a member of the National Geographic Project i am hoping to learn from your input.
Tks in advance.
Peace
Farouk
 
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J2hapydna

Active Member
My dear Farouk,

So, far you have been debating from the point of view that your opinion is the truth and deriding my position as conjecture. You have made this claim several times now. I assume, now you want me to explain the scientific evidence for my "conjecture". Unfortunately, science is a discipline of conjecture based on probabilities. So, I don't see the point. After all, even if I gave you scientific evidence with 99% certainty you would look at the 1% uncertainty and claim your truth lives in it and deride my position as conjecture. Personally, I find such discussions uninteresting.

So, I do appreciate the time you have spent sharing with me your truth. You have been very helpful is showing how Arabs claimed to be sons of Ismail and how it is reported by Jews and Christians that this is what they claimed. In addition, you have shared how some Jews and Christians may also have believed the Arabs were sons of Ismail. Unfortunately, the use of this phrase by Jews and Christians does not mean they believed that every person in that nation was a literal patrilineal descendant of prophet Ismail. After all, they also use the phrase Jews or what are called (Yahudi) i.e. sons of Judah for themselves. However, it doesn't mean they believe everyone who is a Jew is a son of Judah. The children of Aaron and Levi are technically not patrilineal descendants of Judah but called Jews because they have married daughters of Judah and adopted the religion and culture of the tribe of Judah. So, I asked where does the Quran say Muhammad is the descendant of Ismail and not just a member of the nation of Ismail? Apparently, it doesn't. So, that leaves ahadith which do clearly say he was the descendant of Ismail.
 
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J2hapydna

Active Member
Farouk said:
Let me conclude my response of J2hapydna posting 51 by refering you to Revelation of the Pseudo-Methodius.
This literature was orginally attributed to Methodius of Patara.He was a Bishop who died in the early 4th century CE.The literature represents a Byzantine apocalyptic tradition and it exercised an important influence on Western Christian thought.
The contents of the revelation.
"The manuscript begins with a history of the world, starting with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, through to the Muslim conquests, and into the end-times. The text says the “sons of Ishmael”, that is Muslims, will emerge from the desert of Ethribus to inflict God’s punishment upon the Christians who slipped into depravity".

Whats important in our discussion is an apocalypse from the 4th century is refering to":sons of Ishmael".The word "Ethribus" actually is refering to Yathrib present day Medina.



Furthermore, the historicity of the document you are quoting as scripture is questioned:

Apocalypse of Pseudo-Methodius - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In other words we have no way of knowing if it was written before or after the arab invasion. Even if it were by Methodius, he wasn't a prophet.
 
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farouk

Active Member
My dear Farouk,

So, far you have been debating from the point of view that your opinion is the truth and deriding my position as conjecture. You have made this claim several times now. I assume, now you want me to explain the scientific evidence for my "conjecture". Unfortunately, science is a discipline of conjecture based on probabilities. So, I don't see the point. After all, even if I gave you scientific evidence with 99% certainty you would look at the 1% uncertainty and claim your truth lives in it and deride my position as conjecture. Personally, I find such discussions uninteresting.

So, I do appreciate the time you have spent sharing with me your truth. You have been very helpful is showing how Arabs claimed to be sons of Ismail and how it is reported by Jews and Christians that this is what they claimed. In addition, you have shared how some Jews and Christians may also have believed the Arabs were sons of Ismail. Unfortunately, the use of this phrase by Jews and Christians does not mean they believed that every person in that nation was a literal patrilineal descendant of prophet Ismail. After all, they also use the phrase Jews or what are called (Yahudi) i.e. sons of Judah for themselves. However, it doesn't mean they believe everyone who is a Jew is a son of Judah. The children of Aaron and Levi are technically not patrilineal descendants of Judah but called Jews because they have married daughters of Judah and adopted the religion and culture of the tribe of Judah. So, I asked where does the Quran say Muhammad is the descendant of Ismail and not just a member of the nation of Ismail? Apparently, it doesn't. So, that leaves ahadith which do clearly say he was the descendant of Ismail.

Peace upon the seekers of knowledge.
J2hapydna
I commend your honesty in telling me quite frankly that DNA cannot give you 100% accuracy.In Islam the foundation of our faith is based on 100% truth.If any believer has the slightest doubt(even below 1%)so far as the existenance of Almighty God and Prophet Muhammad(PBBUH) as the final messenger of God then he has left the fold of Islam.Simply put it there is no room for doubt.Note so far as DNA is concerned there are so many unanswered questions and those questions can only be answered by speculation and hence you are very well aware thats its just guess work.
Futher i have always asked you to keep an open mind and your refusal in accepting the facts and truth (not opinion) simply suggest that you have made up your mind before even starting the discussion.Note what you say regarding the children of Aaron(PBBUH) and Levi are 100% correct.The Noble Quraan confirms what you saying.The Noble Quraan refers to the Children of Jacob(PBBUH) as "Bani Israeel" and the the Jews as "Yahudi".Therefore,without any speculation,we can deduce that all the children of Jacob(PBBUH),including the Jews, are "Bani Israeel"and not all "Bani Israeel" are Yahudi.Now if any "Bani Israeel" marries a "Yahudi" women then only his children can become a "Yahudi".Hoping i did not confuse any one.Well if you confused then just imagine how confusing you will get when i start my DNA questions on "Bani Israeel" and "Yahudi".
J2hapydna now that takes us to your question regarding the "nation of Ishmae"(PBBUH).Note no where in the entire Noble Quraan will you find the word"Bani Ishmael"(PBBUH) in english "children of Ishmael"(pbbuh).Do you know why?
Finally regarding the Revelation of the Pseudo-Methodius.
Yes you are right he was no Prophet but this was a Christian literature that surfaced at a time when Christians were reverting to Islam wholesale.The question really is why were the Christians reverting to Islam?Did they know something that you do not know?Note my intent on revealing this literature is mearly to show you that every Christian literature and chronicle used the words "sons of Ishmael"(PBBUH).
Why "Sons of Ishmael" and not "Children of Ishmael"(PBBUH)?
Peace
Farouk
 

J2hapydna

Active Member
farouk said:
I commend your honesty in telling me quite frankly that DNA cannot give you 100% accuracy. In Islam the foundation of our faith is based on 100% truth. If any believer has the slightest doubt(even below 1%)so far as the existenance of Almighty God and Prophet Muhammad(PBBUH) as the final messenger of God then he has left the fold of Islam.

Thank you and good luck. I am glad you could find so much certainty in the words of pseudo Methodius (possibly written after the invasion) and ahadith. Like I said, I was wondering where is it said in the Quran? Even a document from Jews and Christians with some verification it was written before the coming of Muhammad would help. I don't need something that says sons of Ismail because I have explained how that is a general term in Judaism and Christianity, but the prophet will be the seed of Ismail would be most helpful. Thanks again.
 
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farouk

Active Member
[quote=J2hapydna;3680538]Thank you and good luck. I am glad you could find so much certainty in the words of pseudo Methodius (possibly written after the invasion) and ahadith. Like I said, I was wondering where is it said in the Quran? Even a document from Jews and Christians with some verification it was written before the coming of Muhammad would help. I don't need something that says sons of Ismail because I have explained how that is a general term in Judaism and Christianity, but the prophet will be the seed of Ismail would be most helpful. Thanks again.[/quote]

Peace to all.
J2hapydna
I think you must have missed my post 57 in which i gave you explicit proof from the Noble Quraan on Prophet Muhammad (PBBUH) being the seed,descendant,progeny and offspring of Prophet Ishmael(PBBUH).
Note now its time to prove to you from your own Bibl;e that Prophet Muhammad(PBBUH) was the awaited Prophet.The verse below from the Noble Quraan confirms that Prophet Muhammad(PBBUH) is mentioned in your Bible.
Noble Quraan
Sura 7 verse 157
"Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered prophet, whom they find written in what they have of the Torah and the Gospel, who enjoins upon them what is right and forbids them what is wrong and makes lawful for them the good things and prohibits for them the evil and relieves them of their burden and the shackles which were upon them. So they who have believed in him, honored him, supported him and followed the light which was sent down with him - it is those who will be the successful".
Note i am going to prove to you from your own Bible that Prophet Muhammad (PBBUH) was from the seed of Prophet Ishmael(PBBUH).
PS I am not going to prove it in this thread because i intend killing 2 birds with 1 stone by posting your proof in the ff thread.
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/same-faith-debates/156639-mohammad-bible.html

Stay tuned and may the Almighty God guide you towards the truth.
Peace
Farouk
 

J2hapydna

Active Member
farouk said:
I think you must have missed my post 57 in which i gave you explicit proof from the Noble Quraan on Prophet Muhammad (PBBUH) being the seed,descendant,progeny and offspring of Prophet Ishmael(PBBUH).

Yes, I am sorry, I covered that in post #27 (on pg 3) before we started our discussion, so you must have missed it.
 

J2hapydna

Active Member
farouk said:
The verse below from the Noble Quraan confirms that Prophet Muhammad(PBBUH) is mentioned in your Bible.

Noble Quraan
Sura 7 verse 157
"Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered prophet, whom they find written in what they have of the Torah and the Gospel, who enjoins upon them what is right and forbids them what is wrong and makes lawful for them the good things and prohibits for them the evil and relieves them of their burden and the shackles which were upon them. So they who have believed in him, honored him, supported him and followed the light which was sent down with him - it is those who will be the successful".

Please stop. This verse doesn't confirm the prophet is in the Bible. It confirms that the Quran claims he is in the Bible.

You are constantly using words such as: prove, confirms, truth and probabilities in ways that are very different than how I have learned to use and value them. I am not sure if this is because you attended college in a country other than the US. However, I am personally having a very difficult time following your train of thought. So, please lets stop.

As far as I am concerned, our discussion on proving / confirming things to each other ended once you admitted that your sense of truth resides in outcomes with less 1% probability.

Separately, I am only interested in the ancestry of the prophet and not where the prophet is mentioned in the Bible.
 
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farouk

Active Member
Please stop. This verse doesn't confirm the prophet is in the Bible. It confirms that the Quran claims he is in the Bible.

You are constantly using words such as: prove, confirms, truth and probabilities in ways that are very different than how I have learned to use and value them. I am not sure if this is because you attended college in a country other than the US. However, I am personally having a very difficult time following your train of thought. So, please lets stop.

As far as I am concerned, our discussion on proving / confirming things to each other ended once you admitted that your sense of truth resides in outcomes with less 1% probability.

Separately, I am only interested in the ancestry of the prophet and not where the prophet is mentioned in the Bible.

Peace upon the concealers of truth.
Let me start with a some verses from the Noble Quraan.
Verse 21:18
" bal naqdhifu bil Haq-qi 'Alal baaTili fa yadmaguhuu fa idhaa huwa zaahiq* wa lakumul waylu mim-maa taSifuun".
Translation
"Nay, We hurl the Truth against falsehood,
and it knocks out its brain, and behold, falsehood doth perish! Ah! woe be to you for the (false) things ye ascribe (to Us)".


J2hapydna for you to ask me to stop simply means the fulfilment of the above verse.

Now lets make a summary of this entire thread.
J2hapydna you first asked for proof from the Noble Quraan of Prophet Muhammad ancestry.When proof was given to you, from 2 verses from the Noble Quraan,with 6 translators all confirming the word “Ommatan”meaning descendant,offspring,seed or progeny you discard this proof by mincing the meaning to suit your agenda.
Secondly you take your agenda to dna evidence.By your own admittance you state that dna has 99% certainty and 1% uncertainty.The math is very simple.
99%certainty+1%uncertainty=100%conjecture.
Note this is simple logic you don’t have to blame your college if you lack intellect in doing this simple math.Futher any educated dna scientist will tell you that dna is still at a baby age and as a result they cannot commit themselves to any conclusive answers.Here is more simple math.
99% Truth+1%Falsehood=100%Conjecture Conjecture=Mistakes=Lies=Insanity.
One Mistake leads to many Mistakes and one lie leads to many Lies which eventually leads to insanity.J2hapydna truth and falsehood are incompatible.The meaning of truth is the opposite of falsehood and the meaning of falsehood is the opposite of truth.
Thirdly J2hapydna you made all kinds of conjectural conclusions.You linking my beloved Prophet(PBBUH) to some Onias without any historical evidence whatsoever.You linking my beloved Prophet(PBBUH) to Isaiah 19 and Matt 24 and there is absolutely nothing in those verses that makes any reference to him.
Now lets look at what I presented to you.
1.An article from the chronicle of Bishop Sebeos.
You reject the article with a lame excuse that Sebeos recorded what he heard from the Umayyids.
2.An article from the chronicle of Khuzistan.
No reply.
3.The Secrets of Rabi Simon ben Yohai.
This was a brain knocker article.No reply.
4.Secrets of Moses.
No reply.
5.Commentary of the Bible of Rabbi ben Azra.
No reply.
6.Palace of the Abyssinian King Negus.
No reply.
7.Ebionite priest Waraka ibn Nawfal.
No reply.
8.The delegation of Najran Christians.
No reply.
9.Zoroasterism convert to Christianity reverted to Islam Hazrat Salman Farsi(RA).
No reply.
10.Monk called Bahira.
No reply.
11.Revelation of Pseudo-Methodius.
You question the historicity of this Christian document.
The bottom line is everything that I presented is factual evidence from historical books as proof and everything you brought to this thread is nothing but conjecture.
Finaly please read what I write very carefully and stop blaming your college if you cannot read what is written.
Quote from post 68.
“Note i am going to prove to you from your own Bible that Prophet Muhammad (PBBUH) was from the seed of Prophet Ishmael(PBBUH).”
Let me conclude with a verse from the Noble Quraan.
Verse 2:146
"Allatheena ataynahumualkitaba yaAArifoonahu kama yaAArifoona abnaahumwa-inna fareeqan minhum layaktumoona alhaqqa wahumyaAAlamoon".

"The people of the Book know this as they know their own sons; but some of them conceal the truth which they themselves know".

The above verse confirms that the Christians know the lineage of Prophet Muhammad(PBBUH) but some of them (like J2hapydna and others) conceal the truth which they themselves know.
Why?
Let me repeat what i said.
Your own bible confirms that Prophet Muhammad(PBBUH) is from the seed of Prophet Ishmael(PBBUH).
Note if you cannot accept whats in your own bible then it simply means your intent is nothing but mischief.
Peace
Farouk
 

J2hapydna

Active Member
farouk said:
"Nay, We hurl the Truth against falsehood, and it knocks out its brain, and behold, falsehood doth perish! Ah! woe be to you for the (false) things ye ascribe (to Us)".

J2hapydna for you to ask me to stop simply means the fulfilment of the above verse. J2hapydna for you to ask me to stop simply means the fulfilment of the above verse.


I have to say, you have an interesting style of discussing issues.

Do you realize that every time you post a response on this thread, several people click on it to see if you have finally found a verse from the Quran with the Ishmaelite ancestry of the prophet in it? We have already had over 1,600 views. So, a lot of people are interested in the answer to my question.

As far as the verse you have recently quoted, it is beautiful. I would love to discuss how it may or may not apply to me. However, that would derail this thread, which is devoted to determining where the Quran explicitly states anywhere that the prophet was the descendant of Ishmael. Thanks.
 

J2hapydna

Active Member
farouk said:
Revelation of Pseudo-Methodius.
You question the historicity of this Christian document.

I didn't question it. The article in Wikipedia says historians question it, because it is not attributed to Methodius but Pseudo_Methodius. (Pseudo meaning false). Then, I said, even if we didn't question the authenticity of the document, Methodius was a Christian monk and his opinion from the 4th or 5th century wouldn't be considered scripture by Jews and most Christians. Then, I explained that the Jews and Christians use the phrase "sons of Ishmael" as a general reference to people who are mixed in with the descendants of Ishmael in the same way the Quran uses ummah. It doesn't mean they think every member of the sons of Ishmael is an actual patrilineal descendant of Ishmael.
 
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J2hapydna

Active Member
farouk said:
By your own admittance you state that dna has 99% certainty and 1% uncertainty.The math is very simple.
99%certainty+1%uncertainty=100% conjecture.

You have your own ideas about truth, rationality, reason and logic. I am not here to challenge them. So, you are welcome to believe what you want. For me, when there is more than 84% probability I think of it as significant. When there is less than 50% I think of it as less than probable etc.

I am glad for you, if you think you have 100% evidence to believe in the existence of god and why Muhammad is his prophet.
 
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J2hapydna

Active Member
farouk said:
Now lets look at what I presented to you.
1.An article from the chronicle of Bishop Sebeos.
You reject the article with a lame excuse that Sebeos recorded what he heard from the Umayyids.
2.An article from the chronicle of Khuzistan.
No reply.
3.The Secrets of Rabi Simon ben Yohai.
This was a brain knocker article.No reply.
4.Secrets of Moses.
No reply.
5.Commentary of the Bible of Rabbi ben Azra.
No reply.
6.Palace of the Abyssinian King Negus.
No reply.
7.Ebionite priest Waraka ibn Nawfal.
No reply.
8.The delegation of Najran Christians.
No reply.
9.Zoroasterism convert to Christianity reverted to Islam Hazrat Salman Farsi(RA).
No reply.
10.Monk called Bahira.
No reply.
11.Revelation of Pseudo-Methodius.

None of these are verses from the Quran. So, why do I have to reply?

The only verse we have seen from the Quran suggests the prophet was from the ummat of Ishmael not shaab of Ishmael. However, I am not disputing he was from the Ummat of Ismail. It has already be clarified that one doesn't have to be patrilineal descendant of Ishmael to be a member of the ummat of Ishmael, so this doesn't prove the prophet was a descendant of Ishmael.
 
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farouk

Active Member
Peace to all.
J2hapydna
Firstly i never even looked at how many people follow this thread.Really the job at hand was to prove to you that Prophet Muhammad(PBBUH) was from the lineage of Prophet Ishmaeel(PBBUH) and i did exactly that.
Secondly in Islam there is no room for probability,conjectures,falsehood or doubts.The slightest doubt(be it 0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001%)simply means you are out of the fold of Islam.Simply put it there is no religion that you could compare to Islam.
Thirdly historically the proof of the Prophets(PBBUH) lineage is very clearly evident.What i have given you is just a drop in the ocean so far as historical proof is concerned.I have so much more to give you but as i said before if you cannot keep an open mind then i will just be wasting my time.Futher i did mention that your own bible confirms that Prophet Muhammad(PBBUH) is from the seed of Prophet Ishmaeel(PBBUH) but if your religion allows for probability,falsehood,conjectures and doubts then there is no blame in you for accepting whats in your own bible.
Finally the 2 verses that i gave you confirms the lineage of my Prophet(PBBUH) but your concerns are regarding the difference in the interpretations of 2 words(Ummah and Shaab).Hence i will direct my postings towards your concerns regarding "Ummah and Shaab".Note i remember reading an article regarding this issue so please give me some time while i search my library.
Peace
Farouk
 

farouk

Active Member
Peace upon the truth seekers.
J2hapydna just a few questions before giving you explicit proof from the Noble Quraan that Prophet Muhammad(PBBUH) is from the progeny of Prophet Ishmaeel(PBBUH).
1.Do you accept the fact that Prophet Muhammad(PBBUH) is from the progeny of Prophet Abraham(PBBUH)?
2.Do you accept the fact that "Ummah" means nation or community?
3.Can you read Arabic?
4.Do you understand the Arabic launguage?

Note sorry if the last 2 questions offend you but i am asking to see what level i have to use for my explanation.
Peace
Farouk
 

farouk

Active Member
Peace upon the seekers of knowledge.
J2hapydna I have noticed that you have avoided my questions.Nontheless I will base my explanation of the Noble Quraan on a word for word basis.It should be quite simple to understand.
First and foremost let me explain the word “shaab” before proving the lineage from the Noble Quraan.
This word is a widely utilized term used in the Arab tribal and modern systems as synonym for the word”people”.A tribe is divided into shu’ub plural sha’b.The term sha’b is defined as the suture of the skull.Just as the suture sits on top of the highest part of a human skeleton the sha’b is referenced to a person that is the leader of a tribe.Here is a link from George Washington University institute for Ethnographic Research that will enlighten you on the word “sha’b’.
http://sites.uci.edu/arabsocietyandcultures/files/2011/09/Varisco-Genealogy-of-Prophet.pdf

Finally note during the time when Prophet Abraham and Prophet Ishmael peace and blessings upon them made a prayer(dua) to the Almighty God there was no tribe in the family of Abraham(PBBUH).As you should be very well aware that Abraham(PBBUH) was not a Jew,nor a Christian and nor was he from any tribe.He was a Hebrew and a Muslim.Hence you will not find the word “sha’b” used in their prayers.
Next week I will give you your proof from the Noble Quraan on lineage. (God willing).
Stay tuned.
Peace
Farouk
 

J2hapydna

Active Member
Peace upon the seekers of knowledge.
J2hapydna I have noticed that you have avoided my questions.Nontheless I will base my explanation of the Noble Quraan on a word for word basis.It should be quite simple to understand.
First and foremost let me explain the word “shaab” before proving the lineage from the Noble Quraan.
This word is a widely utilized term used in the Arab tribal and modern systems as synonym for the word”people”.A tribe is divided into shu’ub plural sha’b.The term sha’b is defined as the suture of the skull.Just as the suture sits on top of the highest part of a human skeleton the sha’b is referenced to a person that is the leader of a tribe.Here is a link from George Washington University institute for Ethnographic Research that will enlighten you on the word “sha’b’.


http://sites.uci.edu/arabsocietyandcultures/files/2011/09/Varisco-Genealogy-of-Prophet.pdf

Finally note during the time when Prophet Abraham and Prophet Ishmael peace and blessings upon them made a prayer(dua) to the Almighty God there was no tribe in the family of Abraham(PBBUH).As you should be very well aware that Abraham(PBBUH) was not a Jew,nor a Christian and nor was he from any tribe.He was a Hebrew and a Muslim.Hence you will not find the word “sha’b” used in their prayers.
Next week I will give you your proof from the Noble Quraan on lineage. (God willing).
Stay tuned.
Peace
Farouk

What are you trying to say? Are you seriously trying to suggest that the Arabic language doesn't have the capability to clearly communicate idea such as, a prophet from the seed (progeny) of Ishmael will be born in the future?
 
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