An example of why I am against prostitution

[roger1440]

I think so too, I mean take money out of the equation and I can't imagine why a woman would do this at all. I'm sure women who do actually enjoy sex would be more choosy.

Not to mention with prostitution comes violence, drugs, excessive alcohol, children prostitution, etc. And of course people being owned like property.

If money is taken out of the equation the woman would not be a prostitute. It's a no brainer.

 

[sandandfoam]

What "experts" have told you? Your "experts" are wrong.

I posted the link waaaay back there.
I am amazed and saddened at how a thread highlighting the enslavement and abuse of millions has turned into a defence justification and of those who abuse.
The focus of the discussion has been on the rights and feelings of the abusers.
It is pathetic and if possible has lowered my opinion further of those who would purchase sex.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I posted the link waaaay back there.
I am amazed and saddened at how a thread highlighting the enslavement and abuse of millions has turned into a defence justification and of those who abuse.
The focus of the discussion has been on the rights and feelings of the abusers.
It is pathetic and if possible has lowered my opinion further of those who would purchase sex.

No one is making excuses for human traffickers and people who abuse others. Prostitution is a very broad term and covers different issues. What we're talking about is how we can make consensual sex work safer for the workers and whether it should be legalized or not. But no one is defending the right of sickos to abuse children and human slaves.

 

[roger1440]

I posted the link waaaay back there.
I am amazed and saddened at how a thread highlighting the enslavement and abuse of millions has turned into a defence justification and of those who abuse.
The focus of the discussion has been on the rights and feelings of the abusers.
It is pathetic and if possible has lowered my opinion further of those who would purchase sex.

I'm having a hard time following you. You seem to be talking about two or three things at once.

 

[Revoltingest]

No one is making excuses for human traffickers and people who abuse others. Prostitution is a very broad term and covers different issues. What we're talking about is how we can make consensual sex work safer for the workers and whether it should be legalized or not. But no one is defending the right of sickos to abuse children and human slaves.

Very clear. I concur. We seem to have a fundamental difference with some others in this thread.
They see all prostitution as abuser vs victim, where we see prostitution & abuse as separate things which may intersect at times. They must fact the fact that we're not uncaring monsters (OK, at least you aren't) who approve of abusing prostitutes....tis the abuse we oppose, not the prostitution.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Completely eradicating prostitution would have no impact on sex-slaves.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

Completely eradicating prostitution would have no impact on sex-slaves.

Might give them more "business".

 

[Alceste]

I posted the link waaaay back there.
I am amazed and saddened at how a thread highlighting the enslavement and abuse of millions has turned into a defence justification and of those who abuse.
The focus of the discussion has been on the rights and feelings of the abusers.
It is pathetic and if possible has lowered my opinion further of those who would purchase sex.

Funny, isn't it? I've never been more certain that people don't bother to click links to studies that contradict their "common sense" views. Even people I consider quite intelligent seem more likely to be persuaded by an argument based on nothing that supports their existing opinion than an argument based on empirical evidence that contradicts it.

Humans are depressing animals.

 

[freethinker44]

I posted the link waaaay back there.
I am amazed and saddened at how a thread highlighting the enslavement and abuse of millions has turned into a defence justification and of those who abuse.
The focus of the discussion has been on the rights and feelings of the abusers.
It is pathetic and if possible has lowered my opinion further of those who would purchase sex.

The "experts" you unquestioningly believe say very few women willingly enter into prostitution not because they are forced to, but because they have no other options. Translation: they chose it because they were poor and needed the money. Nobody chooses to do horrible work, they do it because they need the money.

If it's wrong to "force" people to do things they wouldn't do if they didn't need the money, then it is wrong to have people pick up your garbage or stock shelves in a grocery store.

 

[Simurgh]

The "experts" you unquestioningly believe say very few women willingly enter into prostitution not because they are forced to, but because they have no other options. Translation: they chose it because they were poor and needed the money. Nobody chooses to do horrible work, they do it because they need the money.

If it's wrong to "force" people to do things they wouldn't do if they didn't need the money, then it is wrong to have people pick up your garbage or stock shelves in a grocery store.

and then there are those who are forced into it because their family sees it as an easy way to get drug money, or because daddy or mommy dearest ow money and figure selling the kids into prostitution is the easy way to pay it. then there are those "men" who figure pimping out the girlfriend makes them some easy money and if "ta ***** don' like it she can **** off". then there are women who have no education and/or marketable skills and still need to survive.

I don't see how prostitution equates with picking up trash or stocking groceries, though.

 

[freethinker44]

and then there are those who are forced into it because their family sees it as an easy way to get drug money, or because daddy or mommy dearest ow money and figure selling the kids into prostitution is the easy way to pay it. then there are those "men" who figure pimping out the girlfriend makes them some easy money and if "ta ***** don' like it she can **** off". then there are women who have no education and/or marketable skills and still need to survive.

If people do something because they have no marketable skill, or need the money, or can't get regular work of any other kind, they have chosen to do it.

I don't see how prostitution equates with picking up trash or stocking groceries, though.

If we're going to start saying something is wrong because the people doing it do it because they are economically disadvantaged, then if you've ever bought groceries or had someone pick up your garbage you are just as immoral as someone who pays for sex.

 

[dust1n]

Very clear. I concur. We seem to have a fundamental difference with some others in this thread.
They see all prostitution as abuser vs victim, where we see prostitution & abuse as separate things which may intersect at times. They must fact the fact that we're not uncaring monsters (OK, at least you aren't) who approve of abusing prostitutes....tis the abuse we oppose, not the prostitution.

That doesn't seem to be an accurate description of my arguments, but alright, I guess.

 

[Revoltingest]

That doesn't seem to be an accurate description of my arguments, but alright, I guess.

Well, it wasn't directed specifically at you.
If it doesn't fit you (& it doesn't), then all the better!

 

[Simurgh]

If people do something because they have no marketable skill, or need the money, or can't get regular work of any other kind, they have chosen to do it.

oh, i see, is that the same way I chose not to get out of the way of that bus that ran over me and disabled me for life because I could not see it?

If we're going to start saying something is wrong because the people doing it do it because they are economically disadvantaged, then if you've ever bought groceries or had someone pick up your garbage you are just as immoral as someone who pays for sex.

no, this is not about being economically disadvantaged. this is about lack of choice, lack of opportunity, and the handicap that being powerless confers on some people. matters little if they are male or female or another gender construct altogether. sometimes, there just is no choice other than to do whatever it takes to survive.

 

[freethinker44]

oh, i see, is that the same way I chose not to get out of the way of that bus that ran over me and disabled me for life because I could not see it?

That's not even close to being a similar analogy.

no, this is not about being economically disadvantaged. this is about lack of choice, lack of opportunity, and the handicap that being powerless confers on some people. matters little if they are male or female or another gender construct altogether. sometimes, there just is no choice other than to do whatever it takes to survive.

Which is exactly the same for each and every terrible job that no one wants to do. Thank you for proving my point.

 

[Alceste]

The "experts" you unquestioningly believe say very few women willingly enter into prostitution not because they are forced to, but because they have no other options. Translation: they chose it because they were poor and needed the money. Nobody chooses to do horrible work, they do it because they need the money.

If it's wrong to "force" people to do things they wouldn't do if they didn't need the money, then it is wrong to have people pick up your garbage or stock shelves in a grocery store.

The concept you need to come to terms with is economic coercion. Yes, the dishwasher and the prostitute are both victims of economic coercion, agreeing to do unpalatable work due to economic desperation.

HOWEVER,

When you coerce or bully someone to take out the garbage, you're a jerk and you are free to go about your business.
When you coerce or bully someone to have sex with you, you're a rapist and you may be convicted of a serious crime.

 

[freethinker44]

The concept you need to come to terms with is economic coercion. Yes, the dishwasher and the prostitute are both victims of economic coercion, agreeing to do unpalatable work due to economic desperation.

HOWEVER,

When you coerce or bully someone to take out the garbage, you're a jerk and you are free to go about your business.
When you coerce or bully someone to have sex with you, you're a rapist and you may be convicted of a serious crime.

It's not rape if there is consent. If a prostitute agrees to have sex in exchange for money, they didn't get raped.

You agree that people work terrible jobs like garbage man, dishwasher, etc because they are economically coerced into it, right? So if it is rape to have sex with someone who is coerced into doing it, isn't it slavery to employ someone who is coerced into doing it?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I also disagree with comparing sex work to dishwashing and garbage pickup. Sex work pays a lot more and is more fun if you enjoy that sort of thing. Lol.

 

[Simurgh]

That's not even close to being a similar analogy.



Which is exactly the same for each and every terrible job that no one wants to do. Thank you for proving my point.

this just shows that you really have no clue about the lives of those who are socially, culturally, politically, and economically disadvantaged deal with on a daily basis. you understand nothing about the reality so many face where the only choice is one kind of crime vs. another. and i do know too many prostitutes who tell me that it was either sell themselves or go rob someone. then there are those who feel sex grade being so degrading that they rather go to prison for killing someone during the commission of a crime than prostitute themselves.

So no, sex work is not just about making money, it's about survival. It isn't a choice, except in rare circumstances, that can be equated to stocking shelves or doing dishes.

 

[Alceste]

It's not rape if there is consent. If a prostitute agrees to have sex in exchange for money, they didn't get raped.

You agree that people work terrible jobs like garbage man, dishwasher, etc because they are economically coerced into it, right? So if it is rape to have sex with someone who is coerced into doing it, isn't it slavery to employ someone who is coerced into doing it?

No, and rape is not slavery either. Let's say you hire a housekeeper. Then you tell her she has to sleep with you or you'll fire her and turn her out on the street. Legally, (in my country anyway,) that is sexual assault even if they agree, because you are using economic coercion to bully someone into sex. If you hire a housekeeper and tell her she has to wash your dishes or she's fired, you're golden.