An example of why I am against prostitution

[Sunstone]

These aren't results, they are conjectures; hypothesis. This claim has been made many times, but I've yet to see empirical data that supports it.

That's true. It's just conjecture. But we've tried everything else to deal with prostitution. Maybe we should at last try legalizing and regulating it now.

 

[Simurgh]

These aren't results, they are conjectures; hypothesis. This claim has been made many times, but I've yet to see empirical data that supports it.

Alright, so the fact that there are reports that legal bordellos have increased security, that the police is patrolling constantly in the red light districts and so on and so forth is asserted by local reporters, prostitutes, spokespeople for the police, and that issues pertaining to health codes are reported by local, regional, and national health departments is conjecture. what then would make it a fact in your opinion? I contacted a women's organization (NGO) that among others, also serves prostitutes and was informed that even in their country these things were part of legal prostitution.
yeah, but since it's just women who say it and prostitutes are pathological liars, its just conjecture.

Sure. Let me find a man who can corroborate that. Sorry, the johns are all busy...but i'll sang one as soon as his pants are zipped.

 

[dust1n]

Alright, so the fact that there are reports that legal bordellos have increased security,

What reports?

that the police is patrolling constantly in the red light districts and so on and so forth is asserted by local reporters, prostitutes, spokespeople for the police, and that issues pertaining to health codes are reported by local, regional, and national health departments is conjecture.

Ok... source?

what then would make it a fact in your opinion?

Evidence.

I contacted a women's organization (NGO) that among others, also serves prostitutes and was informed that even in their country these things were part of legal prostitution.
yeah, but since it's just women who say it and prostitutes are pathological liars, its just conjecture.

What NGO, and spoke with whom? What am I suppose to do with an anecdote?

Sure. Let me find a man who can corroborate that. Sorry, the johns are all busy...but i'll sang one as soon as his pants are zipped.

What?

 

[dust1n]

That's true. It's just conjecture. But we've tried everything else to deal with prostitution. Maybe we should at last try legalizing and regulating it now.

I wouldn't support such a notion. I'd we even like to see any sort of research that can help learn from the many current countries who have legalized prostitution. Based on the empirical data I have actually been able to find, there are a couple of reasonable concerns I have with allowing mass prostitution, namely, the heavily supported notion that legalized prostitution is correlated with increased sex trafficking and the lack of sufficient infrastructure to support effective regulation.

However, I find no evidence for mass change for the lives of prostitutes.

How many criminal enterprises are given sanctuary the moment the national legalization of prostitute occurs?

 

[Simurgh]

What reports?

Ok... source? Evidence. What NGO, and spoke with whom? What am I suppose to do with an anecdote? What?

My reference to johns is based on my assumption that they too, ought to have a voice in this. They are the ones who keep this industry alive and pay for whatever floats their boat.


You really think that empirical data collected by a few researchers who look at numbers and are in hog heaven when they can align same in a neat pattern have either all the info you need or that they have all the info they can actually get?

first off, having dealt with research long enough to know, empirical data is limited to whatever it is the people who pay for it want to find out and/or prove. so much for the ultimate truth found in numbers.

And how do you quantify data that does not have $$ attached to it? You reduce human life to a cost/benefit analysis that only provides a small window into a complex issue: the human condition.

Is it really not acceptable to ask prostitutes who are the primary targets of the laws how they feel about the whole thing? Why are their voices "just anecdotal" and thereby worthless to you? You seem to think that only a couple of number crunching office boys, and the occasional woman, can provide acceptable opinions based on their math.

We are talking about people who are generally not well represented in the political arena, sure they are used, but they should not be seen and heard in “polite” society, right? Another anecdotal bit of info, just in case it matters. I have lived long enough and in sufficiently diverse countries to know a thing or two about prostitution and those whose trade it is. Human rights issues have a way of being global.

Here is something about your ardent belief that numbers are the answer to all life’s questions.

Ronald Weitzer, PhD, Professor of Sociology at George Washington University, in the July 2005 Violence Against Women article "Flawed Theory and Method in Studies of Prostitution," wrote:
[FONT=&quot]"In no area of the social sciences has ideology contaminated knowledge more pervasively than in writings on the sex industry. Too often in this area, the canons of scientific inquiry are suspended and research deliberately skewed to serve a particular political agenda."[/FONT]

July 2005 - Ronald Weitzer, PhD gets you to the website.

And yes, the sources I have access to all say the same thing, it is better to have prostitution decriminalized and/or legalized for the prostitutes—male and female—because it gives many of them a better chance to survive and lead a better life. And yes , there are plenty of voices against legalizing it, so where is your empirical evidence that it works—and where—and what are your sources, who funds the research and is bias and policy dependent agenda clearly stated?

here are some fun reads Sex Worker Rights Organizations Around the World ,
Sex Work Europe |
Recommendations From the Brussels 2005 Conference | Sex Work Europe
http://www.csun.edu/~psy453/prosti_y.htm

 

[dust1n]

I really don't even know what you are responding to... overtly emotional and sort of getting off topic.

I appreciate the links though.

 

[freethinker44]

I really don't even know what you are responding to... overtly emotional and sort of getting off topic.

I appreciate the links though.

So what exactly are you arguing for or against here, just to be clear? Are you saying that prostitution shouldn't be decriminalized? Do you believe the system in place now works best? If not how should it be changed to make it better?

 

[dust1n]

So what exactly are you arguing for or against here, just to be clear? Are you saying that prostitution shouldn't be decriminalized? Do you believe the system in place now works best?

My position still remains:
-The system in place blows.
-Decriminalize prostitution for prostitutes (probably john's as well).
-I am not for legalization, because of the outcomes, not the reasoning behind why it should be okay.

If not how should it be changed to make it better?

To the fullest extent, I wouldn't know. Not enough information out there on the subject.

 

[SkylarHunter]

I'm not going to debate the morals of prostitution, but just looking at it from a logical point of view, I can't imagine there are many women who would think about it as their chosen career. In fact, I'm pretty sure most prostitutes would gladly do something else if they were given a chance.
Prostitution is the most downgrading, disgusting, humiliating profession I can think about and as a human being I would love to see it disappear.

 

[freethinker44]

I can't imagine there are many women who would think about it as their chosen career. In fact, I'm pretty sure most prostitutes would gladly do something else if they were given a chance.

I can think of any number of jobs that would also fall under this logic. They can do something else, most minimum wage jobs require no prior experience.

 

[SkylarHunter]

I can think of any number of jobs that would also fall under this logic. They can do something else, most minimum wage jobs require no prior experience.

I'm not going to say you're not right, maybe some of them could do something else, but I don't think many would.
Imagine a prostitute going to a job interview in a supermarket. The interviewer will ask the standard questions, will want to know what she was doing before. Do you really think she would be hired after saying "I've been a prostitute until now"? I don't think so. I know a woman who was a prostitute for a few years and no one will give her a job, not even as a cleaner.
Maybe there are exceptions, I hope so, but it really is hard to get out of that life once some gets in.

 

[freethinker44]

The interviewer will ask the standard questions, will want to know what she was doing before. Do you really think she would be hired after saying "I've been a prostitute until now"?

She could lie, like a normal person.

And actually she doesn't even have to outright lie, she could just say she doesn't have much prior experience because she recently got out of an abusive relationship. It's a completely valid excuse and they probably won't ask follow up questions, should be completely adequate for an unskilled, low-wage job.

 

[Simurgh]

I really don't even know what you are responding to... overtly emotional and sort of getting off topic.

I appreciate the links though.

no, there is nothing overly emotional in my reply. you asked questions and i answered.

just because i actually live in the real world and deal with issues concerning human rights, corrections, women's rights (different from human rights because for all intents and purposes we are assumed to be somewhat defective men who should only be afforded the protections that do not interfere with men's rights) and such and you obviously have no clue that there is more to life than numbers I elaborated. it's not off topic. it is just that you expected something else tht you can quantify. but that's not how life works.

by the way, where are your sources? isn't it usually the case that if i show you some of mine, you get to share some of yours?

 

[dust1n]

no, there is nothing overly emotional in my reply. you asked questions and i answered.

just because i actually live in the real world and deal with issues concerning human rights, corrections, women's rights (different from human rights because for all intents and purposes we are assumed to be somewhat defective men who should only be afforded the protections that do not interfere with men's rights) and such and you obviously have no clue that there is more to life than numbers I elaborated. it's not off topic. it is just that you expected something else tht you can quantify. but that's not how life works.

by the way, where are your sources? isn't it usually the case that if i show you some of mine, you get to share some of yours?

You think insulting me despite the fact this is the first time I've ever been addressed by you is going to be successful in getting a reply?

I saw no evidence for any of the claims made. You did offer, however, a couple good resources. Thanks for that.

Have a nice day.

 

[Revoltingest]

Evidence schmevidence.
Sometimes we favor policy not because of evidence, but because of our values.
I don't know if gay marriage is good or bad for the country. But lacking overwhelming
evidence it's harmful, I'll take on the side of liberty. Let'm get hitched with the same
rights & responsibilities as straight folk. I view legalizing prostitution the same way.
Let consenting adults mind their own business without government peeping in the window.
We need to put fewer & different people in prison...the real malefactors who coerce
& attack others.

 

[Simurgh]

You think insulting me despite the fact this is the first time I've ever been addressed by you is going to be successful in getting a reply?

I saw no evidence for any of the claims made. You did offer, however, a couple good resources. Thanks for that.

Have a nice day.

now it's an insult? wow, when did that happen? if you cannot see any evidence than you need to actually look at the reports that are quite easily found when searching for them via the web. you still have not provided any evidence that suggests that your position is viable. so, again where are your sources. and don't feel under attack. i am merely asking for the same consideration you expect.

 

[dust1n]

Evidence schmevidence.
Sometimes we favor policy not because of evidence, but because of our values.

Politically, my own values are freedom and equality. I don't align myself with any cause that purports to be based on achieving either of those two things unless there is evidence that such a system actually achieves its aims.

now it's an insult? wow, when did that happen? if you cannot see any evidence than you need to actually look at the reports that are quite easily found when searching for them via the web. you still have not provided any evidence that suggests that your position is viable. so, again where are your sources. and don't feel under attack. i am merely asking for the same consideration you expect.

Post 141, 160, 171. About a month ago. I've been waiting for anyone to use a source for a claim since.

 

[Simurgh]

Politically, my own values are freedom and equality. I don't align myself with any cause that purports to be based on achieving either of those two things unless there is evidence that such a system actually achieves its aims.



Post 141, 160, 171. About a month ago. I've been waiting for anyone to use a source for a claim since.

According to your cited posts, you simply select some information that is mostly anecdotal—which is what you take me to task for—and then assume that this applies across the board. Just because prostitution is decriminalized and/or legalized does not all of a sudden create human trafficking, it also does not create more prostitution, it is after all a matter of supply and demand. And government corruption is a major concern with legalized prostitution; how so? Why, all those corrupt officials who benefit from illegal prostitution, and there are a hell of a lot of them globally, suddenly don’t exist? It certainly does not surprise me that political goals were not reached by legalizing the sex trade. Now that’s a first. The politicians don’t get their medals for solving the world’s ills? Oh, how sad. Now we should just give up and crawl into our caves and lick our wounds. Or maybe we should hold the panderers, traffickers, pimps, and corrupt officials and politicians accountable and get off the backs of the sex workers—they are busy anyhow. As I said before, any improvement is better for those employed by the sex trade than none. And besides, it is not them who invented human trafficking or benefit from it, so why hold them hostage to a crime that punishes only one half of the people who participate in it.

 

[Revoltingest]

Politically, my own values are freedom and equality. I don't align myself with any cause that purports to be based on achieving either of those two things unless there is evidence that such a system actually achieves its aims.

An experiment is called for!

 

[dawny0826]

I think the article in the OP touches moreso on human trafficking and sexual abuse than it does the business of prostitution, which could consist of consentual transaction between willing adults. And I don't have a problem at all with that.

I quite like what dust1n has brought to the table, though, I agree with Revoltingest and think that the government does need to be involved in this area due to public health concerns and the safety of prostitutes and their clientele.

I think the prostitute should become a licensed professional and those who work with the prostitute, genuine clientele. Prostitutes should be able to partner and work together if they choose to, to provide creative and quality services that they feel good about to clientele that they trust at prices that they feel are worthy of their services.

My suggestion...

• Prostitution requires a state license. To obtain such a license (annual renewal):
  • Must be 18 years of age
  • Undergo and clear a criminal background check
  • Clear a drug test annually
  • Clear of STIs and are tested bi-annually
  • Mandatory physical annually and cleared by a physician to work
  • Mandatory education and continued education on safe sex practices, bloodborn pathogens and CPR/First Aid
  • Pay for their own licensure, education, background check, drug and medical testing
• For safety purposes, a prostitute must hire a third party to maintain and audit records and register appointments.
• A prostitute will not legally be able to meet alone with a client for an initial consultation, for safety purposes.
• All services to be rendered must be delineated through legal contract and agreed upon by the prostitute and client(s).
• All clients:
  • Must be 18 years of age or older
  • Must undergo a background check
  • Provide documentation from a physician, clearing them for sexual activity and stating that client is free of STIs (documentation must be provided every six months)
  • Must agree to full terms of contract
• Prostitutes are able to provide any sexual service that aligns with state law
• Prostitutes can open businesses for adult entertainment that align with aforementioned regulation - such businesses are subject to state inspection for the safety of clientele - client files are subject to audit by the state for safety purposes and compliance