Amazon Has Banned Conversion Therapy Books; Will the Bible Be Next?

[Kenny]

Show us the miracles. You mention them frequently, but provide no real reportage.

Ohhhhhh,.,,. so when someone is given a death sentence because of a inoperable brain tumor and then it is gone... I've made it up?

 

[Kenny]

Cherry picked anecdotes aren't a great place to rest an argument, either.

Ohhh... so an example of success is an anecdote and cherry picked. Got it! Thanks. Tell that to cancer patients who have success in treatments via radiation.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

When the outcome is positive, it's god, but when nothing changes or it gets worse, who is at fault?

Satan, Old Nick, Scratch, the Devil, Mephistopheles as proxy, Lucifer, Donald Trump.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

So, are you saying that they are automatically shown disrespect? And you know this how?

No, that isn't what I said. I'd appreciate it if you addressed what I actually said, not what you imagine I said. I was pretty clear with my wording, I think.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Ohhhhhh,.,,. so when someone is given a death sentence because of a inoperable brain tumor and then it is gone... I've made it up?

That can and has happened and there is no indication that it is the result of prayer. What about when that happens to a really bad person? What about when it doesn't happen? I forgot, the people praying really did not have enough faith. By some accounts, only 5% of the population has any faith at all.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Ohhh... so an example of success is an anecdote. Got it! Thanks.

We only have your word for it, that is exactly what an anecdote is. We don't know a. if it's true, b. if you are conveying the whole story. Maybe it never happened, maybe some guy who used to be gay told you he wasn't anymore and was happily married, but was actually miserable. Maybe he never married, and just told you he was because he thought that's what you wanted to hear. We just don't know. This is why anecdotal evidence is worth little in serious discussion.

 

[Kenny]

No, that isn't what I said. I'd appreciate it if you addressed what I actually said, not what you imagine I said. I was pretty clear with my wording, I think.

Since I would be classified as a fundamentalist (I think -- don't know what your definition is), when they come back again, does that mean anything?

Or when our police officer works with homosexuals at his job place and they are friends, does that mean anything?

 

[Sand Dancer]

show me the parameters and I'll show you the holes. In as much as we have answered prayer, you have no support in our neck of the woods for your position.

Why does Yahweh answer the prayers of some people, as well as helping people find their car keys, etc, yet does nothing for systemic abuse, war, poverty, disease, etc? What a lousy deity.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Ohhhhhh,.,,. so when someone is given a death sentence because of a inoperable brain tumor and then it is gone... I've made it up?

If someone's brain tumour vanishes through the power of prayer, there should be evidence to support the claim. Maybe you're making it up. Maybe THEY're making it up. Maybe they had a brain tumour, and had intensive medical interventions to get rid of it, and only told you that it was healed with prayer. How do we know? Again, these are reasons anecdotal evidence isn't worth much in serious discussion.

If your claims about miracles are true, it isn't unreasonable to ask for evidence of them.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

When the outcome is positive, it's god, but when nothing changes or it gets worse, who is at fault?

It is confirmation bias.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Since I would be classified as a fundamentalist (I think -- don't know what your definition is), when they come back again, does that mean anything?

Or when our police officer works with homosexuals at his job place and they are friends, does that mean anything?

It's really pretty simple. Go back, read what I actually said, and refer to that. Like I say, I think I was pretty clear. Feel free to stop mischarecterising what I said and reframing what you said just any time.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Ohhhhhh,.,,. so when someone is given a death sentence because of a inoperable brain tumor and then it is gone... I've made it up?

I assuredly said nothing of the kind. I merely asked for a rather more complete description of the event...the history, the diagnosis, the prognosis, the means by which it was decided that it was a "miracle" rather than spontaneous remission, which is known to happen, along with some comparison with all of the other similar such events that did not result in the same happy ending.

It's one thing to notice that you have 1 person completely freed of a life-threatening problem, for whatever reason, and call it "a miracle," while simultaneously ignoring hundreds or thousands of similar cases that result in something more akin to the normal course of events. And it's also good to remember that "the normal course of events" in cancer do indeed include spontaneous remission.

And by the way, I'm perfectly willing to admit that a "spontaneous remission" might be something that God would do, on demand or not, I've no idea. But I, and many others, would also like to understand just why God is so sparing in doling out such "miracles," and not, for some reason, always to those who might appear to be the most worthy. (The most worthy to us, I grant.)

 

[Dan From Smithville]

If someone's brain tumour vanishes through the power of prayer, there should be evidence to support the claim. Maybe you're making it up. Maybe THEY're making it up. Maybe they had a brain tumour, and had intensive medical interventions to get rid of it, and only told you that it was healed with prayer. How do we know? Again, these are reasons anecdotal evidence isn't worth much in serious discussion.

If your claims about miracles are true, it isn't unreasonable to ask for evidence of them.

It is crazy isn't it and no one will convince him otherwise, since he is finding what he is looking for, while forgetting how much he ignored that did not confirm his belief.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

It is confirmation bias.

And nothing, absolutely nothing, that you and I might say or do will ever make the "true believers" see that.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

show me the parameters and I'll show you the holes. In as much as we have answered prayer, you have no support in our neck of the woods for your position.

Try again:
The cruel, dangerous reality of gay conversion therapy | WIRED UK

The BACP itself says there is “no scientific, rational or ethical reason to treat people who identify within a range of human sexualities any differently from those who identify solely as heterosexual”, and every major health organisations in the UK – including the NHS, the British Medical Association, the Royal College of Physicians, the Royal College of Psychiatrists and more – has condemned conversion therapy.
...
Outside of the clear moral, ethical and political issues with conversion therapy, studies that suggest it is beneficial lack validity, and there is a significant lack of research that suggest it is safe. One 2008 meta analysis found that the literature base used to support conversion therapy was “full of omissions which threaten the validity of available data”.
...
Writing in a 2011 piece that proved pivotal in the movement to ban the practice, journalist Patrick Strudwick outlined the therapy he received: prayer, non-evidence based regression techniques, and the framing of homosexuality as a pathology.
...
Any type of conversion therapy is based on “intolerant, inaccurate and outdated assumptions about gender and sexual orientation”, Huma Munshi, Equality Improvement Manager at mental health charity Mind, says.

It can lead to “a great deal of psychological distress”, with feelings of isolation and low self esteem common. Many who undergo conversion therapy end up with long-term mental health problems: anxiety, depression, self-image issues, and in many cases incidences of self harm and suicide.
...
A 2013 article from the McGeorge Law Review found that the therapy can lead to “depression and suicidal tendencies
...
Other research backs these findings. The validity of the therapy has been contested for years; a 1969 study found that those subjected to the therapy experienced anxiety, depression, impotence, relationship dysfunction and, in some cases, suicidal ideation. Other studies reported “debilitating depression, gastric distress, nightmare and anxiety”; others involved in the therapy began to abuse alcohol and drugs in order to deal with treatment-related depression.

A more recent analysis from the American Psychological Association reported a more comprehensive list of consequences: self-reports of anger, anxiety, confusion, depression, grief, guilt, hopelessness, deteriorated relationships with family, loss of social support, loss of faith, poor self-image, social isolation, intimacy difficulties, intrusive imagery, suicidal ideation, self-hatred, and sexual dysfunction.
...
In 2017, all major counselling and psychotherapy bodies in the UK signed the Memorandum of Understanding, an agreement recognising that conversion therapy is harmful. Its key goal is to protect the public through a commitment to completely ending the practice of conversion therapy in the UK.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Ohhh... so an example of success is an anecdote and cherry picked. Got it! Thanks. Tell that to cancer patients who have success in treatments via radiation.

All the evidence I see here is evidence that you believe you have witnessed miracles. That is not evidence that miracles actually happened. You want to support something, provide unbiased 3rd party observations and analysis.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

It is crazy isn't it and no one will convince him otherwise, since he is finding what he is looking for, while forgetting how much he ignored that did not confirm his belief.

I find the constant "make claim-> tapdance to avoid any calls for evidence of claim-> attack and mischarecterise the person asking for basic evidence rather than provide it-> repeat" so very tiresome.

I'm a Christian, but I find logically fallacious Christians and blindly bigoted Christians to be huge threats to my faith. The examples in this thread aren't the worst I've encountered, but they give a good showing of the sort of thing that has largely driven me from active participation in my church.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

And nothing, absolutely nothing, that you and I might say or do will ever make the "true believers" see that.

I agree. You cannot lead a horse to water that thinks water is just magically filling his trough.

Momma said it was my magic trough and it would lead me astray.

 

[Kenny]

That can and has happened and there is no indication that it is the result of prayer. What about when that happens to a really bad person? What about when it doesn't happen? I forgot, the people praying really did not have enough faith. By some accounts, only 5% of the population has any faith at all.

Again... did you read your Bible for instruction? Or are you just parroting old sayings?

And, I can assume that likewise, when radiation didn't work... it was the persons fault?

You are starting to sound a little strange.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

It is confirmation bias.

Two of my favourite (Canadian spelling) versions of this are:

Everything happens in threes. You know why, because once you accept that, every time you get to three, you stop counting and start again.

Lost items will always be found in the last place you look. Of course, because that's when you stop looking.