Allah's failure to communicate.

[Link]

Just the fact that you disagree with other Muslims on these issues proves my point.

This is not true since despite clear proofs and insights, humans due to sorcery from Iblis often make unclear what is clear.

 

[Link]

Please give the verse that speaks of the 12 imams.

To not see emphasis on the Twelve Imams is to miss the forest and ask for a tree.

 

[Clara Tea]

ALLAH'S FAILURE TO COMMUNICATE:

Allah's failure to communicate wasn't complete. Afterall, the Qur'an contains 6,236 verses, so it stands to reason that some topics are adequately covered. For example, many hundreds of verses are dedicated to reiterating that unbelief is evil and those who practice it (i.e.: non-Muslims) are deservedly Hell-bound. The necessity of fighting is not in doubt. Female captives can clearly be used for sex. The fact that Allah has no equals, and is responsible for the creation of the universe is repeatedly stated. More mundane matters such as inheritance, rules for divorce, the number of wives a man may have, and just when to beat one's wife are clearly delineated.

However, the Qur'an is more notable for what it does not clarify. If dogs and music are haram, as some, but not all Muslims believe, why not just say so? Exactly how much of her body is a woman required to cover? Why was there no process given to choose Mohamed's successor? Are people created from clay or a blood clot? Mountains are up-thrusts created by plate tectonics, so why does Allah say they are "placed", which implies they are separate from their surroundings? But to me, all of that pales in comparison to one fact - that hadiths and tafsirs are apparently necessary for Muslims to really figure out what Allah wants. If, as He frequently states, His sign are "clear", and that he has "perfected for you your religion of Islam", why on earth would it be necessary for all of the additional, and frequently conflicting, 'clarification'?

An argument could be made that hadiths are relevant to the extent that they give actual examples of how Mohamed lived by what he preached. But, when they are further used to create policy, rather than exemplify it, as in the case of some declaring that dogs and music are haram, they overstep. Tafsirs are worse. They are blatant attempts to speak for Allah. The very fact that Islamic scholarship even exists for the obviously necessary purpose of clarification proves that Allah failed to get his wishes across. How is that logical given Allah's 'perfection'?

To me the answer is obvious. The Qur'an was created on an ad hoc basis by Mohamed depending on what 'Allah' happened to need on any given day. No 'perfect' deity would have created such a mess. An honest and objective reading of it could not bring a person to any other conclusion.

How do we know that God communicated the Qur'an (or any bible)?

Afraid to question God, most don't even think about these things. In the past, questioners would be put to death or injured. This is common to all religions, not just the Muslim faith.

If I wanted to create a phony religion, the first thing that I would do is take away the ability to question.

 

[stevecanuck]

"Settle in your homes, and do not display yourselves as women did in the days of ˹pre-Islamic˺ ignorance. Establish prayer, pay alms-tax, and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah only intends to keep ˹the causes of˺ evil away from you and purify you completely, O members of the ˹Prophet’s˺ family!" 33:33

Family of Prophet, according to Hadithes are the Imams after Muhammad.


"And, indeed, We have adorned the lowest heaven (the heaven of the world) with lamps (stars), and made (out of) them missiles to drive away devils; and for them, We have prepared (in the Hereafter) the punishment of the Blaze." 67:5

According to Hadithes, the stars, here is a metaphor for the 12 Imams.

"It is He who has sent down to you the Book. Parts of it are definitive verses, which are the mother of the Book, while others are metaphorical. As for those in whose hearts is deviance, they pursue what is metaphorical in it, courting temptation and courting its interpretation. But no one knows its interpretation except Allah and those firmly grounded in knowledge; they say, ‘We believe in it; all of it is from our Lord.’ And none takes admonition except those who possess intellect" 3:7

According to Hadithes those who are firmly in knowledge are the 12 Imams.

Do you not realize that every time you say, "according to hadiths", you are reinforcing my claim that the Qur'an falls well short of telling you what you need to know despite the fact that it is supposed to define Islam in its entirety?

 

[stevecanuck]

Would not Ali 'Imran verse 3:7 gives us something to consider?

"It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muḥammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific.1 As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allāh. But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding."

It that not a test of Faith? Where are we going to choose our interpretation, from God or our own selves.

This teaches humility.

Regards Tony

If the underlined is true, that only makes it worse. The Qur'an, according to Allah, is easy to understand. But, wait .... not all of it. Like I said, it's a mess that no self-respecting deity would ever put his name to.

 

[stevecanuck]

To not see emphasis on the Twelve Imams is to miss the forest and ask for a tree.

And yet you are unable to point me in the direction of so much as one of your "trees".

 

[stevecanuck]

How do we know that God communicated the Qur'an (or any bible)?

That is what Muslims believe, so that is the point of view from which I am commenting.

Afraid to question God, most don't even think about these things. In the past, questioners would be put to death or injured. This is common to all religions, not just the Muslim faith.

If I wanted to create a phony religion, the first thing that I would do is take away the ability to question.

Cue Mohamed.

 

[stevecanuck]

This is not true since despite clear proofs and insights, humans due to sorcery from Iblis often make unclear what is clear.

And this is where I walk away.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

If the underlined is true, that only makes it worse. The Qur'an, according to Allah, is easy to understand. But, wait .... not all of it. Like I said, it's a mess that no self-respecting deity would ever put his name to.

What if that is the purpose of being human?

Regards Tony

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Do you not realize that every time you say, "according to hadiths", you are reinforcing my claim that the Qur'an falls well short of telling you what you need to know despite the fact that it is supposed to define Islam in its entirety?

If you consider the possibility that, the Quran is really Book of God, can He not reveal a Book and also provide its interpretation by inspiring the Prophet and Imams, so, They tell its interpretation? Why not?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

If the underlined is true, that only makes it worse. The Qur'an, according to Allah, is easy to understand. But, wait .... not all of it. Like I said, it's a mess that no self-respecting deity would ever put his name to.

Because Books of God is not to just say things straight forward and literal. They are written in a way that people "discover" truth in it, rather than they being told easily! Only if we make an effort, we discover more. Discovering happens through thinking about its verses, but with the intention of discovering truth, free from love and hate feelings. This is why, for example 12 Imams are not mentioned explicitly, rather they are mentioned using metaphorical verses, those verses that no one knows its interpretation except God. Likewise the Quran says the Bible describes about Muhammad, but when we look at the Bible, we do not see it easily, unless we see the metaphorical verses which talks about voice of God from mount Paran as allusions to Muhammad.
These unclear verses are meant to discover future guidance so, for example verses of Day of Resurrection in Quran are really about a future guidance, because the Resurrection is a spiritual awakening, which is a new guidance, but, to most people it appears as if the Book is talking about a physical resurrection!

 

[stevecanuck]

If you consider the possibility that, the Quran is really Book of God, can He not reveal a Book and also provide its interpretation by inspiring the Prophet and Imams, so, They tell its interpretation? Why not?

Why would "clear signs" need to be interpreted? Allah "made the Qur'an easy". Remember? All of the attempted excuses I've read so far make no sense.

 

[stevecanuck]

Because Books of God is not to just say things straight forward and literal.

That's an absurd concept in general, but even more so in the case of the Qur'an. As I keep saying, Allah thinks he has created "clear signs". He says so several times.

They are written in a way that people "discover" truth in it, rather than they being told easily! Only if we make an effort, we discover more. Discovering happens through thinking about its verses, but with the intention of discovering truth, free from love and hate feelings. This is why, for example 12 Imams are not mentioned explicitly, rather they are mentioned using metaphorical verses, those verses that no one knows its interpretation except God. Likewise the Quran says the Bible describes about Muhammad, but when we look at the Bible, we do not see it easily, unless we see the metaphorical verses which talks about voice of God from mount Paran as allusions to Muhammad.
These unclear verses are meant to discover future guidance so, for example verses of Day of Resurrection in Quran are really about a future guidance, because the Resurrection is a spiritual awakening, which is a new guidance, but, to most people it appears as if the Book is talking about a physical resurrection!

I'm sorry, but that goes against logic. It also goes against Allah's claims. If you make a crypto-gram, you're going to get many different interpretations, and much strife as a result. Check out the whole Sunni-Shia ****-show and ask Allah how his cryptic Qur'an is working for him. Again, the absurdity of your position is obvious.

 

[firedragon]

Allah's failure to communicate wasn't complete. Afterall, the Qur'an contains 6,236 verses, so it stands to reason that some topics are adequately covered. For example, many hundreds of verses are dedicated to reiterating that unbelief is evil and those who practice it (i.e.: non-Muslims) are deservedly Hell-bound.

1. Whats the word in these 100s of verses used for "unbelief"?
2. What does it mean according to the surrounding verses and the context of the Qur'an itself?
3. Please list the 100s of verses.

Thanks.

However, the Qur'an is more notable for what it does not clarify. If dogs and music are haram, as some, but not all Muslims believe, why not just say so?

What you mean is if a belief of some people is not in their scripture, its a problem with the scripture, not the people who believe what is not in the scripture? Is not that a manifestation of begging the question?

An argument could be made that hadiths are relevant to the extent that they give actual examples of how Mohamed lived by what he preached.

Please explain your scientific knowledge about ahadith. whats your methodology? Do you believe all of them? Do you believe the Sahih ones are all historically valid? True? Do you take Thdhlees levels into your equation? Do you take the Mathn as primary or the Sanad as primary? Do you take Thaweel al Masaari into the equation? Do you take the school of Medhina as Furqan for ahadith understanding or do you have some other methodology?

 

[firedragon]

My stake is positive support of Mythology.

So what's your stake in this? Anger? Resentment?

None of that. It's a trend. Feels good.

 

[KWED]

What's your take on these verses:

75:18 Therefore, when it is recited by Us (through the angel), follow its recitation (by concentration of your heart)
75:19 Then, it is undertaken by Us to explain it

That is Allah telling Muhammad to just listen to Jibril reciting verses and not try to understand them, and that Allah will then explain to Muhammad what the verses mean.

This means that Allah knew that his revelations weren't clear and needed explanation - which raises the question, why didn't he just send revelations that were clear and didn't require further explanation?
It's like supplying a machine with an operating manual, and with another manual on how to use the first manual. It makes no sense.

 

[KWED]

when verses of Quran are revealed their explanations comes from God, through Muhammad and the 12 Imams.

There is nothing about the emboldened bit in the Quran. You just tagged that on yourself.
And why not just make the verses themselves clear?

 

[KWED]

"Settle in your homes, and do not display yourselves as women did in the days of ˹pre-Islamic˺ ignorance. Establish prayer, pay alms-tax, and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah only intends to keep ˹the causes of˺ evil away from you and purify you completely, O members of the ˹Prophet’s˺ family!" 33:33

Family of Prophet, according to Hadithes are the Imams after Muhammad.


"And, indeed, We have adorned the lowest heaven (the heaven of the world) with lamps (stars), and made (out of) them missiles to drive away devils; and for them, We have prepared (in the Hereafter) the punishment of the Blaze." 67:5

According to Hadithes, the stars, here is a metaphor for the 12 Imams.

"It is He who has sent down to you the Book. Parts of it are definitive verses, which are the mother of the Book, while others are metaphorical. As for those in whose hearts is deviance, they pursue what is metaphorical in it, courting temptation and courting its interpretation. But no one knows its interpretation except Allah and those firmly grounded in knowledge; they say, ‘We believe in it; all of it is from our Lord.’ And none takes admonition except those who possess intellect" 3:7

According to Hadithes those who are firmly in knowledge are the 12 Imams.

So you admit that there are no actual references to "the 12 imams" in the Quran. You are just taking references to other things and claiming (without any evidence) that it refers to them. You claims are rejected by the majority of Islamic scholars.

 

[KWED]

Would not Ali 'Imran verse 3:7 gives us something to consider?

"It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muḥammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific.1 As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allāh. But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding."

It that not a test of Faith? Where are we going to choose our interpretation, from God or our own selves.

This teaches humility.

That's quite a damning indictment of religious belief.
It basically says "there are bits of Islam that we can't understand, but we believe in it anyway".
An admission of blind faith based on ignorance.

 

[KWED]

If you consider the possibility that, the Quran is really Book of God, can He not reveal a Book and also provide its interpretation by inspiring the Prophet and Imams, so, They tell its interpretation? Why not?

Firstly, there is no consensus over what the Quran means. Different sects have different ideas, and different scholars within those sects have further different ideas.
Second, why didn't Allah make it clear and thus avoid all the confusion and subsequent conflict?