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Allah's failure to communicate.

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
Allah's failure to communicate wasn't complete. Afterall, the Qur'an contains 6,236 verses, so it stands to reason that some topics are adequately covered. For example, many hundreds of verses are dedicated to reiterating that unbelief is evil and those who practice it (i.e.: non-Muslims) are deservedly Hell-bound. The necessity of fighting is not in doubt. Female captives can clearly be used for sex. The fact that Allah has no equals, and is responsible for the creation of the universe is repeatedly stated. More mundane matters such as inheritance, rules for divorce, the number of wives a man may have, and just when to beat one's wife are clearly delineated.

However, the Qur'an is more notable for what it does not clarify. If dogs and music are haram, as some, but not all Muslims believe, why not just say so? Exactly how much of her body is a woman required to cover? Why was there no process given to choose Mohamed's successor? Are people created from clay or a blood clot? Mountains are up-thrusts created by plate tectonics, so why does Allah say they are "placed", which implies they are separate from their surroundings? But to me, all of that pales in comparison to one fact - that hadiths and tafsirs are apparently necessary for Muslims to really figure out what Allah wants. If, as He frequently states, His sign are "clear", and that he has "perfected for you your religion of Islam", why on earth would it be necessary for all of the additional, and frequently conflicting, 'clarification'?

An argument could be made that hadiths are relevant to the extent that they give actual examples of how Mohamed lived by what he preached. But, when they are further used to create policy, rather than exemplify it, as in the case of some declaring that dogs and music are haram, they overstep. Tafsirs are worse. They are blatant attempts to speak for Allah. The very fact that Islamic scholarship even exists for the obviously necessary purpose of clarification proves that Allah failed to get his wishes across. How is that logical given Allah's 'perfection'?

To me the answer is obvious. The Qur'an was created on an ad hoc basis by Mohamed depending on what 'Allah' happened to need on any given day. No 'perfect' deity would have created such a mess. An honest and objective reading of it could not bring a person to any other conclusion.
 

The Hammer

[REDACTED]
Premium Member
To me the answer is obvious. The Qur'an was created on an ad hoc basis by Mohamed depending on what 'Allah' happened to need on any given day. No 'perfect' deity would have created such a mess. An honest and objective reading of it could not bring a person to any other conclusion.

Ok?

What's your stake in this?
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Salam

(1) Dogs are allowed and are not unclean. There's proof of this in Quran. Hadiths can't override Quran.

(2) Slavery is not allowed per Quran. It was never allowed by God in any time in any point of history. I've made a thread about it.

(3) Music come under certain verses condemning vain speech or speech that misguides or has no meaning or purpose. However, since Music is condemned based on those verses according to hadiths, then, a lot of scholar say classical music or music that has meaning that is guiding is not forbidden.

(4) All Halal and Haram is in Quran, sometimes we don't notice things in Quran, and hadiths help make us see the truth thereby. There also very layered things, like the components of Salah are not explicit in Quran in detail, but if you know Sunnah what it says, you can see the inward wisdom of it verified in Quran.

I will respond to other points later.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Allah's failure to communicate wasn't complete. Afterall, the Qur'an contains 6,236 verses, so it stands to reason that some topics are adequately covered. For example, many hundreds of verses are dedicated to reiterating that unbelief is evil and those who practice it (i.e.: non-Muslims) are deservedly Hell-bound. The necessity of fighting is not in doubt. Female captives can clearly be used for sex. The fact that Allah has no equals, and is responsible for the creation of the universe is repeatedly stated. More mundane matters such as inheritance, rules for divorce, the number of wives a man may have, and just when to beat one's wife are clearly delineated.

However, the Qur'an is more notable for what it does not clarify. If dogs and music are haram, as some, but not all Muslims believe, why not just say so? Exactly how much of her body is a woman required to cover? Why was there no process given to choose Mohamed's successor? Are people created from clay or a blood clot? Mountains are up-thrusts created by plate tectonics, so why does Allah say they are "placed", which implies they are separate from their surroundings? But to me, all of that pales in comparison to one fact - that hadiths and tafsirs are apparently necessary for Muslims to really figure out what Allah wants. If, as He frequently states, His sign are "clear", and that he has "perfected for you your religion of Islam", why on earth would it be necessary for all of the additional, and frequently conflicting, 'clarification'?

An argument could be made that hadiths are relevant to the extent that they give actual examples of how Mohamed lived by what he preached. But, when they are further used to create policy, rather than exemplify it, as in the case of some declaring that dogs and music are haram, they overstep. Tafsirs are worse. They are blatant attempts to speak for Allah. The very fact that Islamic scholarship even exists for the obviously necessary purpose of clarification proves that Allah failed to get his wishes across. How is that logical given Allah's 'perfection'?

To me the answer is obvious. The Qur'an was created on an ad hoc basis by Mohamed depending on what 'Allah' happened to need on any given day. No 'perfect' deity would have created such a mess. An honest and objective reading of it could not bring a person to any other conclusion.
What's your take on these verses:

75:18 Therefore, when it is recited by Us (through the angel), follow its recitation (by concentration of your heart)
75:19 Then, it is undertaken by Us to explain it
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Salam

(1) The case of succession is clear in Quran. God always sends the sent ones in groups. They are never sent alone. The concept of an Ahlulbayt is emphasized in Quran not so we things it's just a thing of the past nothing to do with us.

(2) Beating is not allowed, it's an expression I've talked about this before in a thread. But the verse means if you suspect/fear your wife don't talk to her about it and leave her alone in the bedroom about it and even continue to have intercourse. If there is a serious fear of breach between the two, the next verse talks about what to really do.

(3) The amount of body to cover is clear in Quran for woman. We've discussed this before.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
What's your take on these verses:

75:18 Therefore, when it is recited by Us (through the angel), follow its recitation (by concentration of your heart)
75:19 Then, it is undertaken by Us to explain it

Surah 75 is one of those early, barely coherent (IMO) warnings of Judgement Day. As far as I can tell, verses 18 and 19 are merely telling people (actually the Pagans of Mecca) to follow the Qur'an (which didn't really contain much at the time). I don't think they're especially noteworthy. People have to remember that the Qur'an took 22 years to be delivered, and the tone of it changed greatly over that period.

What's your take on them?
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Surah 75 is one of those early, barely coherent (IMO) warnings of Judgement Day. As far as I can tell, verses 18 and 19 are merely telling people (actually the Pagans of Mecca) to follow the Qur'an (which didn't really contain much at the time). I don't think they're especially noteworthy. People have to remember that the Qur'an took 22 years to be delivered, and the tone of it changed greatly over that period.

What's your take on them?

Salam

The Quran was built dynamically over time. True, but the Sunnah of Mohammad (s) complimented it.

Surah Fatiha is said to be "clear and origin of the book". It is said all of Quran can be summarized in it.

The thing about oneness of God, miracles, the Guide, day of judgment, Nubuwa, Resalah, Welayat, Angels, light of God, these are double implications of all of each other. That is you can use Nubuwa to prove day of judgment or you can use the day of judgment to prove Nubuwa. But they are independently proven.

The Quran is majestic, it's chapters are similar but different. They are similar but each of them unique.

The Quran and Sunnah didn't come with laws in the start. It was concerned over the creed in a general sense.

It was more concerned with the key morals and foundations as well as the philosophy of submitting to God through his chosen

As for this chapter, it's highly emphasizing humans know they are accounted for and see themselves though they may make excuses.

18 and 19 are telling people to follow the recitation of truth and the manifesting of truth. The Quran is a recitation of truth and glory from God. The Sunnah of Ahlulbayt (a) explains the truth.

So if we recite it (the truth), follow it. This is talking about wisdom of following a recitation from God and the preceding verses are say to the human, not to be hasty with arguing with the truth and be not be hasty. God's going to recite and then he's going to explain and manifest it.

This is more in line with the expression to slit one's tongue and not be hasty in argument with the truth but to listen.
 
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stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
Salam

(1) Dogs are allowed and are not unclean. There's proof of this in Quran. Hadiths can't override Quran.

I agree, but that's not the point. I'm saying that many (most?) Muslims think they are haram, which speaks to my point that Allah didn't make himself clear enough on the subject.

(2) Slavery is not allowed per Quran. It was never allowed by God in any time in any point of history. I've made a thread about it.

On this I disagree, but same point as above. Allah had 6,236 opportunities to ban slavery in no uncertain terms, yet He did not.

(3) Music come under certain verses condemning vain speech or speech that misguides or has no meaning or purpose. However, since Music is condemned based on those verses according to hadiths, then, a lot of scholar say classical music or music that has meaning that is guiding is not forbidden.

My point exactly - "a lot of scholars" rather than Allah his own self. Why didn't he just say so one way or the other? That is exactly the type of failure I'm talking about.

(4) All Halal and Haram is in Quran, sometimes we don't notice things in Quran, and hadiths help make us see the truth thereby. There also very layered things, like the components of Salah are not explicit in Quran in detail, but if you know Sunnah what it says, you can see the inward wisdom of it verified in Quran.

I will respond to other points later.

Regarding the underlined - who's fault is that. Allah made us, so he knows his audience, which means he should have known what it takes to get his point across. No matter what excuses you make, you can't get around the fact that Allah did a crap job of getting his word out.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Surah 75 is one of those early, barely coherent (IMO) warnings of Judgement Day. As far as I can tell, verses 18 and 19 are merely telling people (actually the Pagans of Mecca) to follow the Qur'an (which didn't really contain much at the time). I don't think they're especially noteworthy. People have to remember that the Qur'an took 22 years to be delivered, and the tone of it changed greatly over that period.

What's your take on them?
Verse 19 is saying, the explanation of its verses is by God, after the revelation of Quran. In another words, when verses of Quran are revealed their explanations comes from God, through Muhammad and the 12 Imams.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Salam

God is testing us, and although he can make sure we all get guided, he has chosen that he tests us.

In the past, the Successors of the founder would continue with revelations, and revelations was a continuous thing.

However, they became corrupted not only first in interpretation, but also later in content. That is the Torah and Gospels and books between also became corrupted not only with respect to interpretation but content.

God out his wisdom (and we can talk about why later or in another thread) put an end to Nubuwa. That means to more divine books in form of signs and proofs from him that is revealed to be held on to by society. Mohammad (s) is the last to channel a revelation.

Given the past, humans corrupt his text, he can't be over explicit in everything or they would corrupt the content. Of course, God can send down Angels or made the Imams guaranteed victory and make sure humans don't corrupt the last revelation.

But instead, wanting to test us, he complimented Quran with the Sunnah. The Sunnah can be corrupted in content and has been as well. But the way he wrote the Quran, was to allow, the deniers of the divinely appointed leaders it appoints, to do so but deceive themselves about it and that they give lip service to Quran while denying it's true interpretation.

This way, if people obey Quran and Ahlulbayt (a), Quran and Sunnah is safeguarded, but if they disobey, the interpretation of Quran would be corrupted but also safeguarded, but the content in text of Quran would be safeguarded.

Thus, part of the plan of putting end to revelation, is to make it subtle in possible double meanings, one being from God but the other an interpretation from Satan, and to allow Satanic sorcery and allow humans to decontextualize it and play word games with it.

The Quran shows hard hearts decontextualize Quran while soft hearts put the words in proper place and follow the clear signs and insights of Quran and hold on to what is clear light.

This is an endless discussion, but, in the past, where he was explicit in naming successors, etc, the text was corrupted.

So this is why Quran is not that explicit in everything.
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
Allah's failure to communicate wasn't complete. Afterall, the Qur'an contains 6,236 verses, so it stands to reason that some topics are adequately covered. For example, many hundreds of verses are dedicated to reiterating that unbelief is evil and those who practice it (i.e.: non-Muslims) are deservedly Hell-bound. The necessity of fighting is not in doubt. Female captives can clearly be used for sex. The fact that Allah has no equals, and is responsible for the creation of the universe is repeatedly stated. More mundane matters such as inheritance, rules for divorce, the number of wives a man may have, and just when to beat one's wife are clearly delineated.

However, the Qur'an is more notable for what it does not clarify. If dogs and music are haram, as some, but not all Muslims believe, why not just say so? Exactly how much of her body is a woman required to cover? Why was there no process given to choose Mohamed's successor? Are people created from clay or a blood clot? Mountains are up-thrusts created by plate tectonics, so why does Allah say they are "placed", which implies they are separate from their surroundings? But to me, all of that pales in comparison to one fact - that hadiths and tafsirs are apparently necessary for Muslims to really figure out what Allah wants. If, as He frequently states, His sign are "clear", and that he has "perfected for you your religion of Islam", why on earth would it be necessary for all of the additional, and frequently conflicting, 'clarification'?

An argument could be made that hadiths are relevant to the extent that they give actual examples of how Mohamed lived by what he preached. But, when they are further used to create policy, rather than exemplify it, as in the case of some declaring that dogs and music are haram, they overstep. Tafsirs are worse. They are blatant attempts to speak for Allah. The very fact that Islamic scholarship even exists for the obviously necessary purpose of clarification proves that Allah failed to get his wishes across. How is that logical given Allah's 'perfection'?

To me the answer is obvious. The Qur'an was created on an ad hoc basis by Mohamed depending on what 'Allah' happened to need on any given day. No 'perfect' deity would have created such a mess. An honest and objective reading of it could not bring a person to any other conclusion.


So much is said about God that simply isn't true. All those holy books were written by mankind. That is who they really reflect. They incorporate all the petty things mankind holds so dear: Ruling, Controlling, Coercing, Intimidating,Manipulating, Threatening, Judging, Condemning, Punishing,Hating, Anger, Wrath,Creating a we against they, and the list goes on and on.

A Being capable of creating the Universe has to be very smart. God would have to be at a Higher Level. God would already know all those petty things mankind holds so dear will never lead to the best results.

I agree what you said about a perfect deity would never have created such a mess. Clearly, it doesn't reflect enough Intelligence of a Being capable of creating the Universe.

Religions teach people to Believe and Accept. On the other hand, God created us all to THINK!!! Perhaps the test is how many will blindly accept compared to how many will take the effort to Discover what Actually exists.
Regardless of any of your choices, learning and growing is going to follow.

The first thing God pointed out to me is that mankind carries such a narrow view. I cry that. Let's widen our views, open our eyes, and expand our thinking. We are missing so very much!!

Finally, everything about God will add up. I say question everything to see if it adds up. To question is the start on the journey to Discovery. WE were always meant to question. The only ones who do not want you to question are those who do not want you to Discover the truth.

That's what I see!! It's very clear!!
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
So much is said about God that simply isn't true. All those holy books were written by mankind. That is who they really reflect. They incorporate all the petty things mankind holds so dear: Ruling, Controlling, Coercing, Intimidating,Manipulating, Threatening, Judging, Condemning, Punishing,Hating, Anger, Wrath,Creating a we against they, and the list goes on and on.

Can I get an amen?

A Being capable of creating the Universe has to be very smart. God would have to be at a Higher Level. God would already know all those petty things mankind holds so dear will never lead to the best results.

I agree what you said about a perfect deity would never have created such a mess. Clearly, it doesn't reflect enough Intelligence of a Being capable of creating the Universe.

Religions teach people to Believe and Accept. On the other hand, God created us all to THINK!!! Perhaps the test is how many will blindly accept compared to how many will take the effort to Discover what Actually exists.
Regardless of any of your choices, learning and growing is going to follow.

The first thing God pointed out to me is that mankind carries such a narrow view. I cry that. Let's widen our views, open our eyes, and expand our thinking. We are missing so very much!!

Finally, everything about God will add up. I say question everything to see if it adds up. To question is the start on the journey to Discovery. WE were always meant to question. The only ones who do not want you to question are those who do not want you to Discover the truth.

That's what I see!! It's very clear!!

Finally! A believer who is also willing to ask questions. You are a rarity. The whole point of organized religion is to dissuade people from questioning. They're easier to control that way.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
Salam

(1) The case of succession is clear in Quran. God always sends the sent ones in groups. They are never sent alone. The concept of an Ahlulbayt is emphasized in Quran not so we things it's just a thing of the past nothing to do with us.

(2) Beating is not allowed, it's an expression I've talked about this before in a thread. But the verse means if you suspect/fear your wife don't talk to her about it and leave her alone in the bedroom about it and even continue to have intercourse. If there is a serious fear of breach between the two, the next verse talks about what to really do.

(3) The amount of body to cover is clear in Quran for woman. We've discussed this before.

(1) No it isn't.
(2) Yes it is.
(3) No it isn't.

Even if you were right, it doesn't change the fact that Islam in NOT monolithic in application. That's because the Qur'an is NOT clear on the above. Just the fact that you disagree with other Muslims on these issues proves my point.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
The Quran is a recitation of truth and glory from God. The Sunnah of Ahlulbayt (a) explains the truth.

It would be hard to imagine an argument that backs my claim more than this. You are admitting that it takes an additional volume to explain that which Allah thought He had already completed. That's the whole point of this thread.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Please give the verse that speaks of the 12 imams.


"Settle in your homes, and do not display yourselves as women did in the days of ˹pre-Islamic˺ ignorance. Establish prayer, pay alms-tax, and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah only intends to keep ˹the causes of˺ evil away from you and purify you completely, O members of the ˹Prophet’s˺ family!" 33:33

Family of Prophet, according to Hadithes are the Imams after Muhammad.


"And, indeed, We have adorned the lowest heaven (the heaven of the world) with lamps (stars), and made (out of) them missiles to drive away devils; and for them, We have prepared (in the Hereafter) the punishment of the Blaze." 67:5

According to Hadithes, the stars, here is a metaphor for the 12 Imams.

"It is He who has sent down to you the Book. Parts of it are definitive verses, which are the mother of the Book, while others are metaphorical. As for those in whose hearts is deviance, they pursue what is metaphorical in it, courting temptation and courting its interpretation. But no one knows its interpretation except Allah and those firmly grounded in knowledge; they say, ‘We believe in it; all of it is from our Lord.’ And none takes admonition except those who possess intellect" 3:7

According to Hadithes those who are firmly in knowledge are the 12 Imams.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
To me the answer is obvious. The Qur'an was created on an ad hoc basis by Mohamed depending on what 'Allah' happened to need on any given day. No 'perfect' deity would have created such a mess. An honest and objective reading of it could not bring a person to any other conclusion.

Would not Ali 'Imran verse 3:7 gives us something to consider?

"It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muḥammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific.1 As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allāh. But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding."

It that not a test of Faith? Where are we going to choose our interpretation, from God or our own selves.

This teaches humility.

Regards Tony
 
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