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Allah talks about caste?

Satyamavejayanti

Well-Known Member
Rational_Mind;2915331]So you feel that classes were created because of the Varna System?

Yes from what i understood on reading about it.

Mankind would not have had class division unless the Varna System was introduced?

I feel that we would not have had a system which controls calcifications of trade and wrok ect.
Which is what the Varna system was.

It may make sense to you but quite honestly just class identification is not anything special. I am sure that prior Religions including those in Hinduism brought mankind the structure needed to progress.

If there was a religion based merit classifications before Hinduism, we would have known about it.
If you know of one please advise me.

This structure is the System not simply identification. I find it odd that the most focus on the Varna System talks about identification but fails to point out the System portion which would be the essential teaching to promote economic harmony, peace, etc. They need to focus on these and teach people to help each other. To be good at heart and share your wealth. That the rich do not oppress the poor. Needs more focus here..

Do you know much about Hinduism in general, if you did you would have understood where the Varna system stands.
I suggest you do some more research on Hinduism in general.

Today people identify this class division but to what benefit? They use it to exploit other classes and control them. So it is the teaching that I care about. There is nothing special about just identifying classes, this could turn out more detrimental in exploitations purposes. This is why I stress again that the focus should be on the teachings of equality between classes.

the birth based Caste system is wrong,
‘Varna’ means one that is adopted by choice, Varna was a merit based system.
Just like a doctor’s son is not necessarily a doctor, a brahmin’s son is not necessarily a brahmin. You become a brahmin based on your good deeds and following the vedas and not by accident of birth.

The benefit was rid the society unqualified people in qualified positions.

In Vedic culture, everyone is considered to be born as Shudra. Then based on his or her education, one becomes a Brahmin, Kshatriya or Vaishya. This completion of education is considered to be a second birth. Hence these three Varnas are called “Dwija” or twice-born. But those who remain uneducated for whatever reasons are not discarded from society. They continue as Shudra and perform support-activities for the society.

If you require some more information please visit this site.

Destroying Caste system
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
In the bible i think the children and sons of god refers to the creations of god and sometimes to a ''righteous'' person. I don't find it weird saying ''righteous people'' are spiritual sons of god, the problem only occurs when we say he is a ''physical, special, begotten son or child''.

Examples:
Galatians 3:26

1 John 3:10


Galatians says "You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus,

1John says : The children of God and the children of the Devil are evident by this fact: Everyone who does not carry on righteousness does not originate with God, neither does he who does not love his brother


neither of these examples say we are 'physically' children. Our being called children depends on our faith and righteousness...these are spiritual qualities. The bible never says we are physically born from God in any way shape or form.

To become children of God through faith and righteousness is what we are striving to become.


 

Rational_Mind

Ahmadi Muslim
If there was a religion based merit classifications before Hinduism, we would have known about it.
If you know of one please advise me.

I think you missed my point completely. I will reiterate that if you keep making it seem like the Varna System is only for getting qualified people then I will keep telling you that is nothing special. I heard about some other aspects of it that were more about equality. You can keep focusing on the aspect of being qualified but I cannot see possibly how there is anything unique in this. They should focus on equality as in not oppressing others. I already know that from what others have said that the Caste System by birth is not Varna System... I know this. I am just saying that the Varna System, if it originated truly from God, was most likely to bring equality in classes such that they spread wealth. That was the SYSTEM. I don't think the main point was to appoint qualified individuals, as this was possibly already structure earlier on in society. Maybe it reiterated it. Like with most religions its teachings got exploited by others in what we know now as Caste System. It maybe the Varna System was a stepping stone in improving society structure, but I would not extend so far as to state it created it.

Another point to note is that since we cannot find a trace of something does not mean it did not exist. The Vedas is not older than traces of human society. If there was human society then it had a system that made it a society. Just because Vedas mentions classes it does not make it the creator. You can state that Varna System taught classes how to be fair and just. But it appears that you state the Varna System created society. I am sure there was some other teaching before that created the first thing we could call society. Moreover if we look at the Vedas from my knowledge it is in a essentially lost language, it is very troublesome to study it. So how can we expect to go much further back then that, it becomes harder. Although there may be something traceable even far back that talks about the structure of society. I believe that Krishna was a Prophet of God who surely taught many things that brought us to be able to accept latter teachings. Definitely also had a big role in making us as capable society today.

I have no means of offence about the language of Vedas. I am just stating what I know about the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedic_Sanskrit.

Also I must admit that I have not studied Hinduism much. From the preliminary analysis I feel it was a revealed religion of God. Although I do not agree with many aspects of what I feel it has changed into today. I do respect the views of others but choose not to accept them for myself for logical reasons that fit me.
 

Vrindavana Das

Active Member
I think you missed my point completely. I will reiterate that if you keep making it seem like the Varna System is only for getting qualified people then I will keep telling you that is nothing special. I heard about some other aspects of it that were more about equality. You can keep focusing on the aspect of being qualified but I cannot see possibly how there is anything unique in this. They should focus on equality as in not oppressing others. I already know that from what others have said that the Caste System by birth is not Varna System... I know this. I am just saying that the Varna System, if it originated truly from God, was most likely to bring equality in classes such that they spread wealth. That was the SYSTEM. I don't think the main point was to appoint qualified individuals, as this was possibly already structure earlier on in society. Maybe it reiterated it. Like with most religions its teachings got exploited by others in what we know now as Caste System. It maybe the Varna System was a stepping stone in improving society structure, but I would not extend so far as to state it created it.

Varna System, was designed for an individual to progress spiritually. That is at the heart of Varna System. All others are at the peripheral level.

The four Varnas were created to give individuals the chance to utilize their qualities and merits in the service of society and progress spiritually. The four Ashramas were designed for members of all caste to advance in their realization of God and to advance in that direction.

Example: A person with qualities of truth, austerity, patience, sense control, etc. would be encouraged to become a Brahman.

Such a person is fit to teach and impart education and knowledge to the other classes through conduct and also through teaching and preaching.

Once he accepts the role of a Brahman, he has to undergo the Ashrama system.

Brahmacharya Ashrama: First 25 years of his life. In this ashrama, he will stay under the care of a Guru or a Spiritual master. He would serve the spiritual master like a menial servant, gain knowledge, read and learn scriptures, observe strict celibacy, no meat-eating, no gambling, no intoxication etc.

Grahastha Ashrama: Next 25 years: Now, he would, if he wants, enter into married life. This allows regulated sense gratification. Like - sex should be only for the propagation of God conscious children. Not for sense-pleasure. He would continue his material life, while advancing in the spiritual discipline.

Vanaprastha Ashrama: Next 25 years of his life: Now he stays in family, but recedes from attachments to material possessions. Spends more time in developing his spiritual life and minimizes his material attachments, sense gratifications etc.

Sannyasa Ashrama: Next 25 years of his life: Now, the material life of the individual ends. He will severe his ties with his family. He will leave home. He will depend only on Supreme Lord for all his needs for sustenance. He would lead a completely spiritual life. This way experiencing the presence of a provider - God, in his life, depending on God, he will perfect his life and achieve the highest good - Spiritual Kingdom of God, after death.

Another point to note is that since we cannot find a trace of something does not mean it did not exist. The Vedas is not older than traces of human society. If there was human society then it had a system that made it a society. Just because Vedas mentions classes it does not make it the creator. You can state that Varna System taught classes how to be fair and just. But it appears that you state the Varna System created society. I am sure there was some other teaching before that created the first thing we could call society. Moreover if we look at the Vedas from my knowledge it is in a essentially lost language, it is very troublesome to study it. So how can we expect to go much further back then that, it becomes harder. Although there may be something traceable even far back that talks about the structure of society. I believe that Krishna was a Prophet of God who surely taught many things that brought us to be able to accept latter teachings. Definitely also had a big role in making us as capable society today.

You say that if we cannot find the trace of something, that does not mean it does not exist. Here the point of origin is being told clearly as Vedas - Vedic civilization. So, where is the need to speculate? However, a small difference is that you are taking the central purpose of the Vedas or religion as a means to improve society, social conditions etc. However, it is not the central point of religion. God Himself is the central point of Vedas or religion. Vedas have emanated FROM God. They are BY God. They are FOR God. For helping human civilization understand that their purpose is of going back to God, to the spiritual world...where we belong.

Unlike other religions, Vedas teach the Science of God. They tell us how the universe formed. How it will dissolve. What is heaven, what is hell, what are different punishments or rewards of both. They give us information of God, God's Kingdom, our relation with God....EVERYTHING!

Krishna is not a prophet. He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The scriptures declare it. The great prophets and seers have declared it. He Himself has declared it.
 
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Rational_Mind

Ahmadi Muslim
Varna System, was designed for an individual to progress spiritually. That is at the heart of Varna System. All others are at the peripheral level.

The four Varnas were created to give individuals the chance to utilize their Aqualities and merits in the service of society and progress spiritually. The four Ashramas were designed for members of all caste to advance in their realization of God and to advance in that direction.

Example: A person with qualities of truth, austerity, patience, sense control, etc. would be encouraged to become a Brahman.

Such a person is fit to teach and impart education and knowledge to the other classes through conduct and also through teaching and preaching.

Once he accepts the role of a Brahman, he has to undergo the Ashrama system.

Brahmacharya Ashrama: First 25 years of his life. In this ashrama, he will stay under the care of a Guru or a Spiritual master. He would serve the spiritual master like a menial servant, gain knowledge, read and learn scriptures, observe strict celibacy, no meat-eating, no gambling, no intoxication etc.

Grahastha Ashrama: Next 25 years: Now, he would, if he wants, enter into married life. This allows regulated sense gratification. Like - sex should be only for the propagation of God conscious children. Not for sense-pleasure. He would continue his material life, while advancing in the spiritual discipline.

Vanaprastha Ashrama: Next 25 years of his life: Now he stays in family, but recedes from attachments to material possessions. Spends more time in developing his spiritual life and minimizes his material attachments, sense gratifications etc.

Sannyasa Ashrama: Next 25 years of his life: Now, the material life of the individual ends. He will severe his ties with his family. He will leave home. He will depend only on Supreme Lord for all his needs for sustenance. He would lead a completely spiritual life. This way experiencing the presence of a provider - God, in his life, depending on God, he will perfect his life and achieve the highest good - Spiritual Kingdom of God, after death.



You say that if we cannot find the trace of something, that does not mean it does not exist. Here the point of origin is being told clearly as Vedas - Vedic civilization. So, where is the need to speculate? However, a small difference is that you are taking the central purpose of the Vedas or religion as a means to improve society, social conditions etc. However, it is not the central point of religion. God Himself is the central point of Vedas or religion. Vedas have emanated FROM God. They are BY God. They are FOR God. For helping human civilization understand that their purpose is of going back to God, to the spiritual world...where we belong.

Unlike other religions, Vedas teach the Science of God. They tell us how the universe formed. How it will dissolve. What is heaven, what is hell, what are different punishments or rewards of both. They give us information of God, God's Kingdom, our relation with God....EVERYTHING!

Krishna is not a prophet. He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The scriptures declare it. The great prophets and seers have declared it. He Himself has declared it.

I respect your views. I understand religion is primarily a spiritual guide. Religion also forms the basis of human advancement in my view as mankind would be nothing without Religion as a guide. So this teaching was likely spiritual and also key for our development.

Krishna (as) is considered to be a Prophet mentioned in Hadith:
"There was a prophet of God in India who was dark in colour and his name was Kahan."

Similarly Jesus (as) is given Godhood in Christianity but I also consider him to be merely a Prophet of God. If we study the bible we find that the actual claim of Jesus (as) was never for Godhood. He merely claimed to be a Prophet. This is similarly what others have found in the Bhagawat Geeta.

I hope you would have some time to read more here.

This is no means of disrespect. I would just like to share my views with you.
 

Vrindavana Das

Active Member
I respect your views. I understand religion is primarily a spiritual guide. Religion also forms the basis of human advancement in my view as mankind would be nothing without Religion as a guide. So this teaching was likely spiritual and also key for our development.

Krishna (as) is considered to be a Prophet mentioned in Hadith:
"There was a prophet of God in India who was dark in colour and his name was Kahan."

Similarly Jesus (as) is given Godhood in Christianity but I also consider him to be merely a Prophet of God. If we study the bible we find that the actual claim of Jesus (as) was never for Godhood. He merely claimed to be a Prophet. This is similarly what others have found in the Bhagawat Geeta.

I hope you would have some time to read more here.

This is no means of disrespect. I would just like to share my views with you.

I did read from the link provided. However, I did not find any answer to the question raised, except that the interpretation is incorrect or as per the speaker's understanding, Krishna is claiming to be a messenger of God. Both of which are not correct.

Below is a verse from Bhagavad Gita. A word-to-word translation is given to remove any scope of "interpretations" as claimed on the link provided. Please go through. See for yourself both claims raised by speaker - "interpretation" & "Krishna claiming to be a messenger of God":

aham ātmā guḍākeśa
sarva-bhūtāśaya-sthitaḥ
aham ādiś ca madhyaḿ ca
bhūtānām anta eva ca​

SYNONYMS

aham — I; ātmā — the soul; guḍākeśa — O Arjuna; sarva-bhūta — of all living entities; āśaya-sthitaḥ — situated within the heart; aham — I am; ādiḥ — the origin; ca — also; madhyam — middle; ca — also; bhūtānām — of all living entities; antaḥ — end; eva — certainly; ca — and.

TRANSLATION

I am the Supersoul, O Arjuna, seated in the hearts of all living entities. I am the beginning, the middle and the end of all beings. [B.G. 10.20]

I respect the speaker and your faith. So, please do not get me wrong in any way.
 

Rational_Mind

Ahmadi Muslim
What about subsequent religions?

They fall under for me my religion and for you yours. You have to respect others views. Even if you feel they are not originating from God. Quran says about judging a prophet by seeing if they prosper (10:17). Also (10:82) clarifies that it is not mans decision to take action but Allah (swt) duty to establish the truth. Also (2:14) warns against restricting people to worship God. No compulsion in religion (2:256). How to deal with liars by first explaining then leaving it to Allah (swt) (3:61). Also to note here this is how the Holy Prophet (saw) dealt with disputes on religion. A tribe of Christians came to debate and they basically lost but kept on going.Then when the challenge was to pray and let God decide they backed out. Mean while during this dispute they (Christians) were permitted to pray in their own way in the mosque. This is unmatched religious tolerance. Also look at the treatment it idol worshipers (9:5). Disrespect is what is described as the behavior of rejects of true prophets, it would be against any Muslim to behave in such a way. With great regret there are unfortunately misguided muslims who have become arrogant. Islam lends then no support.

Also there was a Person who claimed Prophethood while the Holy Prophet (saw) was alive. No punishment or disrespect was done. I believe He even came to the Prophet (saw) and said I am one as well.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
A
I think the time has come for mankind to realize that it is no longer worthwhile to pit religions one against the other. All religions must be accepted as being for the good of man and adherents of all religions must look for unity rather than disunity. Religious academia must facilitate harmony rather than disharmony.

Hello Venu

I think this will go on as it has gone on. In this regard, I like the following verse:

Mankind were one community, and Allah sent (unto them) Prophets as bearers of good tidings and as warners, and revealed therewith the Scripture with the truth that mankind might judge concerning that wherein they differed. And unto whom (the Scripture) was given differed only through hatred one of another. And Allah by His will guided those who believe unto the truth of that concerning which they differed. Allah guideth whom He will unto a straight path.

-------------

And I also think that hatred is in-built in the dual world view.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Hello Venu

I think this will go on as it has gone on. In this regard, I like the following verse:

Mankind were one community, and Allah sent (unto them) Prophets as bearers of good tidings and as warners, and revealed therewith the Scripture with the truth that mankind might judge concerning that wherein they differed. And unto whom (the Scripture) was given differed only through hatred one of another. And Allah by His will guided those who believe unto the truth of that concerning which they differed. Allah guideth whom He will unto a straight path.

I think most religious folk assume themselves to be the ones guided on that straight path. I think obviously our judgement on this might be a bit faulty.

-------------
And I also think that hatred is in-built in the dual world view.

Hatred is built into materialistic attachment I think. You hate those that take your stuff or won't share. You hate those that have more then you. As one looses the materialistic desire there seems less reason to hate.
 

Rational_Mind

Ahmadi Muslim
I did read from the link provided. However, I did not find any answer to the question raised, except that the interpretation is incorrect or as per the speaker's understanding, Krishna is claiming to be a messenger of God. Both of which are not correct.

Below is a verse from Bhagavad Gita. A word-to-word translation is given to remove any scope of "interpretations" as claimed on the link provided. Please go through. See for yourself both claims raised by speaker - "interpretation" & "Krishna claiming to be a messenger of God":

aham ātmā guḍākeśa
sarva-bhūtāśaya-sthitaḥ
aham ādiś ca madhyaḿ ca
bhūtānām anta eva ca​

SYNONYMS

aham — I; ātmā — the soul; guḍākeśa — O Arjuna; sarva-bhūta — of all living entities; āśaya-sthitaḥ — situated within the heart; aham — I am; ādiḥ — the origin; ca — also; madhyam — middle; ca — also; bhūtānām — of all living entities; antaḥ — end; eva — certainly; ca — and.

TRANSLATION

I am the Supersoul, O Arjuna, seated in the hearts of all living entities. I am the beginning, the middle and the end of all beings. [B.G. 10.20]

I respect the speaker and your faith. So, please do not get me wrong in any way.

By this standard we have many Gods who have claimed in the scriptures to be Alpha and Omega. I think you unfortunately missed the point being conveyed. It did not state that the statement mistranslated and did not exist. If you read once again it states that misinterpretation is the focus, people missed symbolics and metaphoric language and took them literally over time. The very statement that you showed me is proof in itself that this was not a claim to Godhood. Many scriptures have a like statement and we only find that the person himself only claimed to be human and a Prophet of God. What you have provided is the similarity in all Religions. This statement you translated is the proof that like all other Prophets he was a Prophet no more. People choose to select one religion with one human being as God but how can anyone be fair when there are so many claimants according to this standard. How do you fairly judge between scriptures some of which are in dead languages, some of which have 100s of versions, some of which are lost, some of which are altered over time. If there are so many people to appear it will be contrary to the harmony and unity prophesied.

Moreover, we see no return of all these "Gods" mentioned to have a second coming, they all state to appear in the latter days. All signs point to our time yet nobody has showed up to prove the truth of their Religion. In my humble opinion this person to appear is simply a Prophet of God and a human being that all scriptures refer to. Hence we take it as the coming of only one person that all scriptures speak about or we deny all prophecies contained in all scriptures that are all of similar nature (by coincident?).
 

Satyamavejayanti

Well-Known Member
Rational_Mind;2915430]I think you missed my point completely. I will reiterate that if you keep making it seem like the Varna System is only for getting qualified people then I will keep telling you that is nothing special. I heard about some other aspects of it that were more about equality.

I think all of the Varna system is about equality, its a education and employment equalities, which no other religion (from my POV) has or had.


You can keep focusing on the aspect of being qualified but I cannot see possibly how there is anything unique in this. They should focus on equality as in not oppressing others.

What gave you the idea that the Varna system is about oppression of others, if you are referencing to the modern caste system then i would agree.

I already know that from what others have said that the Caste System by birth is not Varna System... I know this. I am just saying that the Varna System, if it originated truly from God, was most likely to bring equality in classes such that they spread wealth. That was the SYSTEM. I don't think the main point was to appoint qualified individuals, as this was possibly already structure earlier on in society. Maybe it reiterated it. Like with most religions its teachings got exploited by others in what we know now as Caste System. It maybe the Varna System was a stepping stone in improving society structure, but I would not extend so far as to state it created it.

Ahh then i agree.

Another point to note is that since we cannot find a trace of something does not mean it did not exist.

I disagree.

The Vedas is not older than traces of human society.

Its the erliest record of our human minds, i think its requires some credit for starting our modern way of life, but thats my opinion.

If there was human society then it had a system that made it a society. Just because Vedas mentions classes it does not make it the creator.

As i said if there was a human society it would most likely be the Vedic one.

You can state that Varna System taught classes how to be fair and just. But it appears that you state the Varna System created society.

No, its the first records of civilized society.

I am sure there was some other teaching before that created the first thing we could call society.

As i have said, if there was we would have known about it.

Moreover if we look at the Vedas from my knowledge it is in a essentially lost language,

Tell that to the 900 million Hindus who chant the Vedic Sanskrit Gayatri and other Mantra in every pooja they do.
Tell that to the Millions of Pandits/Prohits who know and read Vedic Sanskrit.
Tell that to the millions of people who speak Hindi (formed from sanskrit).
If the Vedic language is lost, then so is Hinduism.
And i think we all know that Hinduism is still around.

it is very troublesome to study it.

Tell that to the Arya Samaj.

So how can we expect to go much further back then that, it becomes harder. Although there may be something traceable even far back that talks about the structure of society.

If thats as far back as we can go, then your statement of there being other human societies prior to Rig Vedic period is not right.

I believe that Krishna was a Prophet of God who surely taught many things that brought us to be able to accept latter teachings. Definitely also had a big role in making us as capable society today.

No arguments there.

I have no means of offence about the language of Vedas. I am just stating what I know about the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedic_Sanskrit.

I suggest you learn about Sanskrit from those who can read and write it.
Or learn it your self.

Sanskrit

Also I must admit that I have not studied Hinduism much. From the preliminary analysis I feel it was a revealed religion of God. Although I do not agree with many aspects of what I feel it has changed into today. I do respect the views of others but choose not to accept them for myself for logical reasons that fit me.
I suggest you learn about Hinduism from fellow Hindus.
I also choose to accept views of others, and don't blindly believe anything.


OM TATH SATH
 

Rational_Mind

Ahmadi Muslim
Vedic Sanskrit is the language of the Vedas, texts compiled over the period of early-to-mid 2nd to mid 1st millennium BC. Vedic Sanskrit has been orally preserved as a part of the Śrauta tradition of Vedic chanting, predating the advent of alphabetic writing in India by several centuries. For lack of both epigraphic evidence and an unbroken manuscript tradition, Vedic Sanskrit can be considered a reconstructed language. Especially the oldest stage of the language, Rigvedic Sanskrit, the language of the hymns of the Rigveda, is preserved only in a redacted form several centuries younger than the texts' composition, and recovering its original form is a matter of linguistic reconstruction.[1]

Sorry for the confusion, I did not mean it did not develop into newer languages that exist. I mean't the source it is written is essentially over in modern use are moved really far apart due to the time between now and when it was written. This is why it is so challenging to translate. It is hard to trace the changes due to lack of written preservation.

Also it seems that beginning of Vedic time period is actually quite likely to be a major stepping stone in complex societies. There is evidence of past societies that may have had classes but it is lacking in quantity and not very prominent.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
I think most religious folk assume themselves to be the ones guided on that straight path. I think obviously our judgement on this might be a bit faulty.

I agree.

Hatred is built into materialistic attachment I think. You hate those that take your stuff or won't share. You hate those that have more then you. As one looses the materialistic desire there seems less reason to hate.

And that sense of "this is me" and "that is the world".:)
 

Vrindavana Das

Active Member
By this standard we have many Gods who have claimed in the scriptures to be Alpha and Omega.

Please share who else, in which scripture, claims to be the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

I think you unfortunately missed the point being conveyed.

Unfortunately you are missing the point. Speaker simply took things on a tangent of misinterpretation and metaphoric understanding. To the questioner (on Krishna), the speaker pointed towards Jesus. To the other questioner (on Jesus), the speaker pointed towards his reply on Krishna.

If you re-read, you will realize that the speaker did not answer the question at all.

It did not state that the statement mistranslated and did not exist. If you read once again it states that misinterpretation is the focus, people missed symbolics and metaphoric language and took them literally over time.

Scriptures do not use symbolical/metaphoric language. They are to be taken literally.

You say scriptures have been misinterpreted. Taking scriptures metaphorically & symbolically, as you/speaker is suggesting, we can choose the most convenient interpretation that suits us/our belief. Also, interpretations will vary according to the different beliefs and different levels of understanding of the readers. Thus misinterprations will happen. Which you just now said is not correct. You see the paradox? Speaker himself is advocating a way of misinterpration while condemning misinterpretation.

This type of scriptural reading is mental speculation. This is not the way to read any scripture. Scriptures are to be accepted literally (as-it-is) to avoid any error in interpretation.

The very statement that you showed me is proof in itself that this was not a claim to Godhood.

:confused:

Please show me. I am failing to see what you are saying.

Many scriptures have a like statement and we only find that the person himself only claimed to be human and a Prophet of God. What you have provided is the similarity in all Religions. This statement you translated is the proof that like all other Prophets he was a Prophet no more.

He is clearly saying I am the Super-soul present in the heart of all living entities. Which can only be God and no human. You say this means Krishna is claiming to be a human and a Prophet of God. Sorry, I still fail to see the interpretation and the logic you derive here. Can you please tell me?

People choose to select one religion with one human being as God but how can anyone be fair when there are so many claimants according to this standard. How do you fairly judge between scriptures some of which are in dead languages, some of which have 100s of versions, some of which are lost, some of which are altered over time. If there are so many people to appear it will be contrary to the harmony and unity prophesied.

For that, we have to use our intelligence. God (Allah/Krishna/anyone we believe in), will guide us according to our sincerity. Don't you think so?

Moreover, we see no return of all these "Gods" mentioned to have a second coming, they all state to appear in the latter days. All signs point to our time yet nobody has showed up to prove the truth of their Religion. In my humble opinion this person to appear is simply a Prophet of God and a human being that all scriptures refer to. Hence we take it as the coming of only one person that all scriptures speak about or we deny all prophecies contained in all scriptures that are all of similar nature (by coincident?).

Well, can you be more specific?

What I know is that God did appear approx. 525 years back. He appeared to inaugurate the yuga-dharma...the universal religion for our present modern age (Kali-yuga). Harinaam Sankirtan. Congregational chanting of the Holy names of God.
 

Rational_Mind

Ahmadi Muslim
@Vrindavana Das

Please head to the Vedic Scripture and find me the answer to who created the Sun. This will exemplify my point entirely. Follow what you said and do not go past literal interpretations. You may try symbolic for self justification as well. Give it a try.

We find that all religions contain prophecies concerning the advent of a special religious personality, in the latter days The Hindus were awaiting the advent of the Neha Kalank Avatar, who has been foretold in their scriptures; the Christians are awaiting the appearance of their Messiah; the Muslims are awaiting the appearance of the Mahdi and Messiah; the Zoroastrians believe in the coming of Mesio Darbahme. The Prophet Buddha also predicted his return, and Guru Baba Nanak predicted the advent of a great Reformer. If the advent of future Messengers had ceased how could all these people agree on the single fact that a Promised One of the latter days was yet to appear.
Ataul Wahid LaHaye, Canada

If a scripture is in its original form it is very easy to set a standard to tell literal from symbolic language. You interpet in a fashion that avoids contradiction with clear verses. You also use your mental ability applied similarly in school when reading poetry, shakespeare, etc.. It makes much sense when it is symbolic.
 

Rational_Mind

Ahmadi Muslim
Please share who else, in which scripture, claims to be the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

Unfortunately you are missing the point. Speaker simply took things on a tangent of misinterpretation and metaphoric understanding. To the questioner (on Krishna), the speaker pointed towards Jesus. To the other questioner (on Jesus), the speaker pointed towards his reply on Krishna.

If you re-read, you will realize that the speaker did not answer the question at all.

The entire point was exactly that. Christians claim Jesus is God. Hindus claim Krishna is God. They both make similar statements. So who is God really? Are you not familiar with verses of the bible presented that show Jesus as Alpha & Omega... etc?

Examining the scriptures in detail show quite the contrary. Even with alterations to the text there is still sufficient to show problems with these outlooks. To me the physical form claimed by these scriptures itself proves that it is quite contrary not a God.

More reading: Future of Revelation
 

Vrindavana Das

Active Member
@Vrindavana Das

Please head to the Vedic Scripture and find me the answer to who created the Sun. This will exemplify my point entirely. Follow what you said and do not go past literal interpretations. You may try symbolic for self justification as well. Give it a try.

I will give it a try. However, would appreciate if you will provide an answer to questions raised by me in my previous post as well. I have given you literal word-to-word translation also. Please prove your claim, derived from the verse, of Krishna being a Prophet.

I tell you, you cannot prove your claim. It is such misrepresentations, which you say you despise, that should be avoided while reading scriptures. :)

If a scripture is in its original form it is very easy to set a standard to tell literal from symbolic language. You interpet in a fashion that avoids contradiction with clear verses. You also use your mental ability applied similarly in school when reading poetry, shakespeare, etc.. It makes much sense when it is symbolic.

That, my friend, is mental speculation, giving rise to misinterpretations, which you say are not correct. You are only supporting what you so vehemently said was incorrect.

We have to adhere to the 'literal' to follow the 'spirit'. We do not have to tamper with the 'literal'. If we do so, we will lose the 'spirit' and shall end following up a 'ghost'. Poetry, Shakespeare etc. are material. Scriptures are spiritual - transcendental. So, there is no logic in the example here. Two cannot be compared.
 

Vrindavana Das

Active Member
We find that all religions contain prophecies concerning the advent of a special religious personality, in the latter days The Hindus were awaiting the advent of the Neha Kalank Avatar, who has been foretold in their scriptures; the Christians are awaiting the appearance of their Messiah; the Muslims are awaiting the appearance of the Mahdi and Messiah; the Zoroastrians believe in the coming of Mesio Darbahme. The Prophet Buddha also predicted his return, and Guru Baba Nanak predicted the advent of a great Reformer. If the advent of future Messengers had ceased how could all these people agree on the single fact that a Promised One of the latter days was yet to appear.
Ataul Wahid LaHaye, Canada

Just a few points:

There is no Neha Kalank Avtar predicted by Hindu scriptures. Please check. This only goes to show the depth of scriptural knowledge of the person whom you have quoted. If you take knowledge from incorrect sources, you are bound to be misled in your beliefs.

Secondly, Hindu scriptures talk of God descending and not 'Prophets.' So, your understanding about Guru Nanak prediction is also incorrect. Similarly, Buddha was God Himself. Therefore, your understanding that he was a Prophet is also incorrect.
 

Vrindavana Das

Active Member
The entire point was exactly that. Christians claim Jesus is God. Hindus claim Krishna is God. They both make similar statements. So who is God really? Are you not familiar with verses of the bible presented that show Jesus as Alpha & Omega... etc?

Christ never claimed to be God. This is common knowledge. He said - I am son of God. So, the premises of your assumption is wrong. Hindus claim Krishna is God. You are right. Krishna Himself declares that He is God. There is no one above Him. Great seers and Prophets have also declared the same. Our scriptures also declare the same.

Examining the scriptures in detail show quite the contrary. Even with alterations to the text there is still sufficient to show problems with these outlooks. To me the physical form claimed by these scriptures itself proves that it is quite contrary not a God.

More reading: Future of Revelation

If you say scriptures show quite contrary, then I am afraid that you have not examined the scriptures in detail my friend. It is evident from whatever you are quoting, cause what is being quoted by these speakers is not correct.

Just to prove my point, I will take one example on the physical form of God, which you have raised above.

Bible tells us, God has created man in His image. This confirms God has a form like Human.

In truth, because God, the Cause of all causes, possesses form, we see so many forms in the universe. Without there being form in the cause, there can be no form in the effect; without there being form in the source, there can be no form in the reflection. Logically, something cannot come from nothing.

As for the formless God, it is known as impersonal Brahman (formless light) in the scriptures. In the Bhagavad Gita, Krishna has declared the following:

brahmaṇo hi pratiṣṭhāham
amṛtasyāvyayasya ca
śāśvatasya ca dharmasya
sukhasyaikāntikasya ca​

And I am the basis of the impersonal Brahman, which is immortal, imperishable and eternal and is the constitutional position of ultimate happiness.[B.G. 14.27].

So, that formless God, impersonal Brahman is the transcendental light coming out of the body of Supreme Personality of Godhead - Krishna. If you go beyong the formless feature, you will come to the Parmatma feature (four handed Narayana form) of Supreme Lord. Beyond that, you will come to the two handed form of Krishna; Supreme Personality of Godhead - Bhagavana.
 
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