Allah talks about caste?

[Vrindavana Das]

It is merely identification. It seems pointless in the world today even if it is taken to be a system.

What is advocated by the scriptures, is applicable for all persons at all times. Our non-adherence to the verdict of scriptures, due to our shortcomings, does not qualify it as redundant.

 

[Rational_Mind]

What is advocated by the scriptures, is applicable for all persons at all times. Our non-adherence to the verdict of scriptures, due to our shortcomings, does not qualify it as redundant.

Is there a book written on the Varna System that uses the scriptures as it source. I would like to look into this topic more.

 

[Vrindavana Das]

Is there a book written on the Varna System that uses the scriptures as it source. I would like to look into this topic more.

I am not sure of that. Just google and see if you get something. I found this article on Varnashrama dharma. CAT 4: Caste System Cast Out | Bhaktivedanta Vedabase

 

[Rational_Mind]

I am not sure of that. Just google and see if you get something. I found this article on Varnashrama dharma. CAT 4: Caste System Cast Out | Bhaktivedanta Vedabase

That is much better. Although I thought it should have focused on how having classes responsible to help each other would have been much better. Islam plainly teaches everyone to be spiritual and the rich give to the poor. And the people obedient. So I am not sure where the Verna System could essentially be involved better by 4 class identification.

Also I am curious to know if there are verses in Vedic Scriptures defining the religion to encompass all time.

 

[Vrindavana Das]

Also I am curious to know if there are verses in Vedic Scriptures defining the religion to encompass all time.

First we must be on the same page as to what religion means.

Religion is not faith. Today I follow Buddhism, tomorrow Hinduism, then Islamism and so on. Faiths can change. Religion or dharma is the nature/quality of soul. It cannot change.

Just like nature of sugar is 'sweetness'. Nature of fire is 'heat & light'.

Even if you grind sugar, every particle will be sweet. It will not give up it's nature and become sour.

Similarly, the nature of soul is 'service'. We see everybody is serving someone or another. Wife is serving husband. Husband serving wife. Employee serving employee. Employer serving a bigger employer. Servant serving master and so on. This 'service', when directed towards God, is called Religion.

Thus, if the nature of soul is eternal, i.e. religion is eternal, the scriptures detailing eternal religion will be valid for all for all times - for eternity.

 

[Pegg]

What do you mean all to be equal,how the factories then will work,how restaurants will
work,how teachers will work,all are reach,and no one had to serve any one.

That can never happen except if you have a better idea,do you have a better idea
to make them all rich,no workers,all are boss.

equality has nothing to do with what job a person does or how much money a person has.

The way God sees each of us is the same. He does not favor one over the other.
Like a parent who loves all his children, God sees us all equally. Men and women, poor or rich we are all of equal value in his eyes. It doesnt mean he expects us all to do the same job or have the same money...those things do not make us equal in Gods eyes.

It is only us who see each other as lesser or greater value based on the jobs we do or the money we have. Some view males as more valuable then females, some view rich as more important then the poor...that is human imperfection. Whereas the holy scriptures of the Christian and Hebrew text states:

Deuteronomy 1:17 YOU must not be partial in judgment. YOU should hear the little one the same as the great one. YOU must not become frightened because of a man, for the judgment belongs to God

Acts 10:34 At this Peter opened his mouth and said: “For a certainty I perceive that God is not partial, 35 but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him

Job 34:19 [There is One] who has not shown partiality to princes And has not given more consideration to the noble one than to the lowly one, For all of them are the work of his hands

Deuteronomy 10:17 For Jehovah YOUR God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the God great, mighty and fear-inspiring, who treats none with partiality nor accepts a bribe

Galatians 2:6 But on the part of those who seemed to be something—whatever sort of men they formerly were makes no difference to me—God does not go by a man’s outward appearance—to me, in fact, those outstanding men imparted nothing new.

God sees all mankind as his own creation and we are all equal to him. He does not view one as more valuable then another. He love us all regardless of how we view each other.

 

[Rational_Mind]

First we must be on the same page as to what religion means.

Religion is not faith. Today I follow Buddhism, tomorrow Hinduism, then Islamism and so on. Faiths can change. Religion or dharma is the nature/quality of soul. It cannot change.

Just like nature of sugar is 'sweetness'. Nature of fire is 'heat & light'.

Even if you grind sugar, every particle will be sweet. It will not give up it's nature and become sour.

Similarly, the nature of soul is 'service'. We see everybody is serving someone or another. Wife is serving husband. Husband serving wife. Employee serving employee. Employer serving a bigger employer. Servant serving master and so on. This 'service', when directed towards God, is called Religion.

Thus, if the nature of soul is eternal, i.e. religion is eternal, the scriptures detailing eternal religion will be valid for all for all times - for eternity.

I hold the view that all major world religions were from Allah (swt). I believe religion evolved society as we see it today. There were preliminary steps in this ladder that helped man reach the top. So the preliminary steps are unacceptable as they do not provide the best path for mankind to find Allah (swt). Analogy would be of crawling while you have the option to take a jet. The idea behind it is that the teachings of past Religions were not preserved for the very reason they had a lot of temporal portions and always prophesied another Prophet to come and move them higher as they became more capable. So mankind advanced in the material world continuously because they were always provided for their Spiritual needs that gave a structure to receive the gifts from Allah (swt).

My view is the figure of Krishna (as) was a human being and a Prophet of Allah (swt) sent to a certain nation which was given a law perfect only for a certain time period. Similarly to Jesus (as) and other Prophets of Allah (swt) later got taken to be Gods. So if Vedic Scriptures made a claim to be for all time then it would have been most interesting for me. As I have heard (if I remember correctly) that Islam is the distinct Religion which has laid a claim in the Holy Quran that it will remain till the day of judgement (end of time).

 

[Vrindavana Das]

I hold the view that all major world religions were from Allah (swt). I believe religion evolved society as we see it today. There were preliminary steps in this ladder that helped man reach the top. So the preliminary steps are unacceptable as they do not provide the best path for mankind to find Allah (swt). Analogy would be of crawling while you have the option to take a jet. The idea behind it is that the teachings of past Religions were not preserved for the very reason they had a lot of temporal portions and always prophesied another Prophet to come and move them higher as they became more capable. So mankind advanced in the material world continuously because they were always provided for their Spiritual needs that gave a structure to receive the gifts from Allah (swt).

It is perfectly all right if you think all major religions were from Allah. It is the same ONE God we refer to with different names. For the remaining portion, I respect your opinion, but disagree.

My view is the figure of Krishna (as) was a human being and a Prophet of Allah (swt) sent to a certain nation which was given a law perfect only for a certain time period. Similarly to Jesus (as) and other Prophets of Allah (swt) later got taken to be Gods. So if Vedic Scriptures made a claim to be for all time then it would have been most interesting for me. As I have heard (if I remember correctly) that Islam is the distinct Religion which has laid a claim in the Holy Quran that it will remain till the day of judgement (end of time).

Krishna was not a human. He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The same is confirmed by many great personalities and different scriptures.

Scriptures gives us information of cosmic creation, universal annihilation, descriptions of spiritual worlds and also tells us ways by which the spiritual worlds be achieved.

 

[Vrindavana Das]

equality has nothing to do with what job a person does or how much money a person has.

The way God sees each of us is the same. He does not favor one over the other.
Like a parent who loves all his children, God sees us all equally. Men and women, poor or rich we are all of equal value in his eyes. It doesnt mean he expects us all to do the same job or have the same money...those things do not make us equal in Gods eyes.

It is only us who see each other as lesser or greater value based on the jobs we do or the money we have. Some view males as more valuable then females, some view rich as more important then the poor...that is human imperfection. Whereas the holy scriptures of the Christian and Hebrew text states:

Deuteronomy 1:17 YOU must not be partial in judgment. YOU should hear the little one the same as the great one. YOU must not become frightened because of a man, for the judgment belongs to God

Acts 10:34 At this Peter opened his mouth and said: “For a certainty I perceive that God is not partial, 35 but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him

Job 34:19 [There is One] who has not shown partiality to princes And has not given more consideration to the noble one than to the lowly one, For all of them are the work of his hands

Deuteronomy 10:17 For Jehovah YOUR God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the God great, mighty and fear-inspiring, who treats none with partiality nor accepts a bribe

Galatians 2:6 But on the part of those who seemed to be something—whatever sort of men they formerly were makes no difference to me—God does not go by a man’s outward appearance—to me, in fact, those outstanding men imparted nothing new.

God sees all mankind as his own creation and we are all equal to him. He does not view one as more valuable then another. He love us all regardless of how we view each other.

You are speaking from a different perspective. Trruth is speaking about the Varna System, designed by the Supreme Lord, and taught by the scriptures. It creates division of individuals (in class), based on their qualities and aptitudes. It is separate from topics of partiality and equality.

 

[Pegg]

You are speaking from a different perspective. Trruth is speaking about the Varna System, designed by the Supreme Lord, and taught by the scriptures. It creates division of individuals (in class), based on their qualities and aptitudes. It is separate from topics of partiality and equality.

are not people 'born' into the caste system?

if so , how can it be based on qualities and aptitudes? And who decides that one persons qualities are better then another persons and puts one down and one up?

 

[Vrindavana Das]

are not people 'born' into the caste system?

if so , how can it be based on qualities and aptitudes? And who decides that one persons qualities are better then another persons and puts one down and one up?

Caste System is a misrepresentation of the original Vedic Varna-Ashrama System. Varna-Ashrama system is based on qualification by merits and not on qualification by birth.

In my post #63, I have given the following link. Please check.

CAT 4: Caste System Cast Out | Bhaktivedanta Vedabase

 

[Vrindavana Das]

And who decides that one persons qualities are better then another persons and puts one down and one up?

Everybody is cut-out for something. It is just recognizing the strong points of an individual and employing those strengths in the service of society and God.

My actions, karma (past and present), have given me a particular set of qualities. Yours have given you your's. Similarly, everyone has got their's. So, whatever qualities we have acquired, it is like putting them to use for the overall good of society and for the satisfaction of God.

Someone who has done bad karma, is rewarded inferior qualities. Someone who has done good karma, gets superior qualities. Is it only not fair? Where is the question of one up or one down?

 

[FearGod]

equality has nothing to do with what job a person does or how much money a person has.

The way God sees each of us is the same. He does not favor one over the other.
Like a parent who loves all his children, God sees us all equally. Men and women, poor or rich we are all of equal value in his eyes. It doesnt mean he expects us all to do the same job or have the same money...those things do not make us equal in Gods eyes.

It is only us who see each other as lesser or greater value based on the jobs we do or the money we have. Some view males as more valuable then females, some view rich as more important then the poor...that is human imperfection. Whereas the holy scriptures of the Christian and Hebrew text states:

Deuteronomy 1:17 YOU must not be partial in judgment. YOU should hear the little one the same as the great one. YOU must not become frightened because of a man, for the judgment belongs to God

Acts 10:34 At this Peter opened his mouth and said: “For a certainty I perceive that God is not partial, 35 but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him

Job 34:19 [There is One] who has not shown partiality to princes And has not given more consideration to the noble one than to the lowly one, For all of them are the work of his hands

Deuteronomy 10:17 For Jehovah YOUR God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the God great, mighty and fear-inspiring, who treats none with partiality nor accepts a bribe

Galatians 2:6 But on the part of those who seemed to be something—whatever sort of men they formerly were makes no difference to me—God does not go by a man’s outward appearance—to me, in fact, those outstanding men imparted nothing new.

God sees all mankind as his own creation and we are all equal to him. He does not view one as more valuable then another. He love us all regardless of how we view each other.

Do you mean that god love Hitler similar to Jesus,what do you mean love all of us equally.

 

[Pegg]

Everybody is cut-out for something. It is just recognizing the strong points of an individual and employing those strengths in the service of society and God.

My actions, karma (past and present), have given me a particular set of qualities. Yours have given you your's. Similarly, everyone has got their's. So, whatever qualities we have acquired, it is like putting them to use for the overall good of society and for the satisfaction of God.

but isnt a person traditionally placed into a caste by birth? So how can a child develop a set of qualities when it hasnt yet had the opportunity to develop any?

Someone who has done bad karma, is rewarded inferior qualities. Someone who has done good karma, gets superior qualities. Is it only not fair? Where is the question of one up or one down?

i personally dont think its fair that a person is born into a caste without a choice in the matter , no. I also cannot understand why the Creator would want anyone to live with inferior qualities.

 

[Pegg]

Do you mean that god love Hitler similar to Jesus,what do you mean love all of us equally.

it means that if Hitler repented of his wrongdoing and turned to doing good, God would accept him back because we are all his children no matter what we may do wrong in our life.

He doesnt view some as unworthy or treat some with favoritism, thats what it means.

 

[FearGod]

it means that if Hitler repented of his wrongdoing and turned to doing good, God would accept him back because we are all his children no matter what we may do wrong in our life.

He doesnt view some as unworthy or treat some with favoritism, thats what it means.

No we arent his children,we are only a better creation than dogs,monkeys..etc.
i dont know what makes you think that we are children of god,it is even dont make any sense

 

[A-ManESL]

No we arent his children,we are only a better creation than dogs,monkeys..etc.

Just curious, why do you think we are a better creation?

 

[Pegg]

No we arent his children,we are only a better creation than dogs,monkeys..etc.
i dont know what makes you think that we are children of god,it is even dont make any sense

being 'children' of God is not something we are entitled to, but it is something that God bestows on us if he chooses to. And im sure you wouldnt put limitations on how God feels about mankind.

Adam was a son of God while he was perfect. But after he sinned he lost that right. The bible even states that Adam was a son of God in the geneology:
...
[son] of E′nosh,
[son] of Seth,
[son] of Adam,
[son] of God.

If God never viewed Adam as a 'son', why would he have it recorded in the geneology of the Jews that he was? Obviously it shows that God viewed Adam as a 'son' at one time.

The christian scriptures show that jesus apostles believe that God views some as his children if they are obedient and loyal to him. EG, 1 John 3:10: “The children of God and the children of the Devil are evident by this fact: Everyone who does not carry on righteousness does not originate with God, neither does he who does not love his brother.” It seems from a spiritual point of view, we are viewed as Gods children when we act in harmony with Gods righteousness.

And the apostles also taught that when mankind are united with God, they can become 'children' of God:
EG, Rom. 8:19-21: “...The creation (mankind) itself also will be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God.”

So the point is that if Adam was called a 'son' of God in his perfect condition (before he rebelled), then that is what we can attain to. And it is because that is how God views mankind, as his children.

 

[Madhuri]

but isnt a person traditionally placed into a caste by birth? So how can a child develop a set of qualities when it hasnt yet had the opportunity to develop any?

The caste system is not the original system as presented in the Vedas. The Vedas talk about a 'Varna' system. And no, one's varna is not determined by birth although it was most likely one would be born into the varna that represented his innate nature. But there are references that talk about one moving into a varna based on his own personal skills and characteristics.

Unfortunately this system has become corrupt and now we refer to it as a 'caste system' that includes these dalits or untouchables. This has no religious basis but has become ingrained in Indian culture.

 

[Vrindavana Das]

but isnt a person traditionally placed into a caste by birth? So how can a child develop a set of qualities when it hasnt yet had the opportunity to develop any?

Placing a person in a particular caste by birth is misrepresenting the actual Varna system to suit one's interest. Seems you have not checked the link. Please check, it will clear your misconception on caste by birth. CAT 4: Caste System Cast Out | Bhaktivedanta Vedabase

i personally dont think its fair that a person is born into a caste without a choice in the matter , no. I also cannot understand why the Creator would want anyone to live with inferior qualities.

In God's creation, nothing happens by chance. Even birth! We are awarded a particular species of life...a birth in a particular family, country etc., based on our deeds, as determined by the superior power.

If someone does abominable deeds. Can he be treated the same way as someone doing pious deeds? If so, what is the need and where is the incentive for anyone to adhere to God's laws?

At the level of soul we are all equal. Our deeds are responsible for getting us a particular body with superior or inferior qualities. God does not want us to live with inferior qualities. He repeatedly tells and reminds us through scriptures, the right way of living. If someone does not adhere, is God at fault for his sufferings?