Allah talks about caste?

[Rational_Mind]

Can you point the relevant verse please which say that a literal change has been done in past scriptures?

Regards

[2:78] Do they not know that Allah knows what they conceal and what they disclose?

[2:79] And some of them are illiterate; they know not the Book but their own false notions, and they do nothing but conjecture.

[2:80] Woe, therefore, to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say: ‘This is from Allah,’ that they may take for it a paltry price. Woe, then, to them for what their hands have written, and woe to them for what they earn.

 

[Vrindavana Das]

Some foolish persons profess mental speculation - like use of symbolic and metaphorical interpretation, as justified, to understand and explain Holy Scriptures. This misrepresentation of scriptures is condemned here as 'non-scriptural'. Such bogus understanding and translations are on material platform - coming from the finite intelligence of a materially conditioned soul. Scriptures, however, are on a transcendental platform. They come from infinite intelligence of the Infinite Allah or His liberated Prophets/seers.

[2:78] Do they not know that Allah knows what they conceal and what they disclose?
People who give unauthorized commentaries on Holy Scriptures, like Quran, conceal some facts and disclose some facts - to suit their convenience and motives. It says that Allah knows and is aware of what they are doing! Be forewarned!

[2:79] And some of them are illiterate; they know not the Book but their own false notions, and they do nothing but conjecture.

Some are illiterate in matters of Spiritual science. They do not know the science of God given in the Scriptures and only present their false understanding (wrong interpretations), when presenting Scriptures. They only do guesswork and speculate. Their work is worth nothing more!

[2:80] Woe, therefore, to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say: ‘This is from Allah,’ that they may take for it a paltry price. Woe, then, to them for what their hands have written, and woe to them for what they earn.

Therefore, those who present their own translation of scriptures (speculating and using their finite intellect), claiming it to be 'words of Allah', such persons make some money on presenting such material understanding of transcendental scriptures. The money thus made, and the hands that write such books, both are condemned!

The Holy Quran in these verses, is categorically stating that we should not follow symbolic and metaphorical interpretations. They are not scripturally authorized, are misleading and are on material platform!

You just proved my point and have disproved yours!

 

[beerisit]

Some foolish persons profess mental speculation - like use of symbolic and metaphorical interpretation, as justified, to understand and explain Holy Scriptures. This misrepresentation of scriptures is condemned here as 'non-scriptural'. Such bogus understanding and translations are on material platform - coming from the finite intelligence of a materially conditioned soul. Scriptures, however, are on a transcendental platform. They come from infinite intelligence of the Infinite Allah or His liberated Prophets/seers.

[2:78] Do they not know that Allah knows what they conceal and what they disclose?
People who give unauthorized commentaries on Holy Scriptures, like Quran, conceal some facts and disclose some facts - to suit their convenience and motives. It says that Allah knows and is aware of what they are doing! Be forewarned!

[2:79] And some of them are illiterate; they know not the Book but their own false notions, and they do nothing but conjecture.

Some are illiterate in matters of Spiritual science. They do not know the science of God given in the Scriptures and only present their false understanding (wrong interpretations), when presenting Scriptures. They only do guesswork and speculate. Their work is worth nothing more!

[2:80] Woe, therefore, to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say: ‘This is from Allah,’ that they may take for it a paltry price. Woe, then, to them for what their hands have written, and woe to them for what they earn.

Therefore, those who present their own translation of scriptures (speculating and using their finite intellect), claiming it to be 'words of Allah', such persons make some money on presenting such material understanding of transcendental scriptures. The money thus made, and the hands that write such books, both are condemned!

The Holy Quran in these verses, is categorically stating that we should not follow symbolic and metaphorical interpretations. They are not scripturally authorized, are misleading and are on material platform!

You just proved my point and have disproved yours!

Are these your own interpretation of the verses?

 

[Rational_Mind]

Some foolish persons profess mental speculation - like use of symbolic and metaphorical interpretation, as justified, to understand and explain Holy Scriptures. This misrepresentation of scriptures is condemned here as 'non-scriptural'. Such bogus understanding and translations are on material platform - coming from the finite intelligence of a materially conditioned soul. Scriptures, however, are on a transcendental platform. They come from infinite intelligence of the Infinite Allah or His liberated Prophets/seers.

[2:78] Do they not know that Allah knows what they conceal and what they disclose?
People who give unauthorized commentaries on Holy Scriptures, like Quran, conceal some facts and disclose some facts - to suit their convenience and motives. It says that Allah knows and is aware of what they are doing! Be forewarned!

[2:79] And some of them are illiterate; they know not the Book but their own false notions, and they do nothing but conjecture.

Some are illiterate in matters of Spiritual science. They do not know the science of God given in the Scriptures and only present their false understanding (wrong interpretations), when presenting Scriptures. They only do guesswork and speculate. Their work is worth nothing more!

[2:80] Woe, therefore, to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say: ‘This is from Allah,’ that they may take for it a paltry price. Woe, then, to them for what their hands have written, and woe to them for what they earn.

Therefore, those who present their own translation of scriptures (speculating and using their finite intellect), claiming it to be 'words of Allah', such persons make some money on presenting such material understanding of transcendental scriptures. The money thus made, and the hands that write such books, both are condemned!

The Holy Quran in these verses, is categorically stating that we should not follow symbolic and metaphorical interpretations. They are not scripturally authorized, are misleading and are on material platform!

You just proved my point and have disproved yours!

Please read the commentary here: The Holy Quran

Maybe you will understand.

How many verses of the Quran do I have to produce to explain to you that all things in the Quran are not literal. Maybe first you should learn the difference between literal and symbolic. Why are you wasting my time? GO READ WHAT IT MEANS. Or go back to grade school if you cannot read.


And hold fast, all together, by the rope of Allah and be not divided; and remember the favour of Allah which He bestowed upon you when you were enemies and He united your hearts in love, so that by His grace you became as brothers; and you were on the brink of a pit of fire and He saved you from it. Thus does Allah explain to you His commandments that you may be guided. (3:104)

Where is the rope??

And the case of those who disbelieve is like the case of one who shouts to that which hears nothing but a call and a cry. They are deaf, dumb, and blind — so they do not understand. (2:172)

This speaks about you, so please open your intelligence, ears, and eyes.

 

[A-ManESL]

[2:78] Do they not know that Allah knows what they conceal and what they disclose?

[2:79] And some of them are illiterate; they know not the Book but their own false notions, and they do nothing but conjecture.

[2:80] Woe, therefore, to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say: ‘This is from Allah,’ that they may take for it a paltry price. Woe, then, to them for what their hands have written, and woe to them for what they earn.

Many Islamic scholars feel that these do not mean that words of the previous scripture have been changed, rather that some people have not bothered to understand and are making interpretations on their own. The way you understand the above verse is taken to be limited and incorrect in context by them. A list of some Muslim scholars who don't propose the thesis that the text of the Bible has been altered literally was posted by me on this thread.

Regards

 

[Vrindavana Das]

And the case of those who disbelieve is like the case of one who shouts to that which hears nothing but a call and a cry. They are deaf, dumb, and blind — so they do not understand. (2:172)

This speaks about you, so please open your intelligence, ears, and eyes.

Sorry friend, but you are the one who is behaving like a deaf, dumb and blind person. Will you blindly believe any commentary?

Please open your intelligence, ears & eyes.

Many Islamic scholars feel that these do not mean that words of the previous scripture have been changed, rather that some people have not bothered to understand and are making interpretations on their own. The way you understand the above verse is taken to be limited and incorrect in context by them. A list of some Muslim scholars who don't propose the thesis that the text of the Bible has been altered literally was posted by me on this thread.

Regards

 

[Rational_Mind]

Sorry friend, but you are the one who is behaving like a deaf, dumb and blind person. Will you blindly believe any commentary?

Please open your intelligence, ears & eyes.

If you cannot answer then just don't post.

 

[Rational_Mind]

Many Islamic scholars feel that these do not mean that words of the previous scripture have been changed, rather that some people have not bothered to understand and are making interpretations on their own. The way you understand the above verse is taken to be limited and incorrect in context by them. A list of some Muslim scholars who don't propose the thesis that the text of the Bible has been altered literally was posted by me on this thread.

Regards

These Scholars have made such big statement without any support. Did they study the time period. I find many of these "Scholars" have lost touch with reality as they stopped studying history and science.

Have these "Scholars" read the bible? Have they studied history of Judaism and Christianity? Have they studied the practices of the Church and the mediums and limitations on writing? Do they even know what is the original language the Scriptures were in? (Here is some Historical Background)

If you read the commentary I linked it helps understand the verses. You will note that there are 3 kinds of misguidance done by the People of the Book who rejected the Holy Prophet (saw). When you realize this and compare the interpretations of other Scholars you will yourself realize which one makes most sense when you read the verses over and over again.

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

Rational_Mind;2918302]Sorry for the confusion, I did not mean it did not develop into newer languages that exist. I mean't the source it is written is essentially over in modern use are moved really far apart due to the time between now and when it was written. This is why it is so challenging to translate. It is hard to trace the changes due to lack of written preservation.

Sorry for the late reply

The Vedas have been preserved in writing ever since it was written. I have a copy of the Veda Samhita, so please dont tell me that there are no written Vedas or any philosophy on them.

Also it seems that beginning of Vedic time period is actually quite likely to be a major stepping stone in complex societies. There is evidence of past societies that may have had classes but it is lacking in quantity and not very prominent.

If they are not prominent, then they were not Civilized enough to survive, let alone have any written documents.
The earliest written record we have is the Rig Veda.

 

[Vrindavana Das]

If you cannot answer then just don't post.

I did answer.

Will you blindly believe any commentary?

If you cannot understand, and want me to expand on that, it simply means that Allah will not pitch one brother (of community A) against another (of community B). It is un-godly. It is not possible. You talk about rational, logic over blind-faith etc. Can't you see and understand this simple fact?

Also, please reflect on the below quotes.

6. Inna allatheena kafaroo sawaon AAalayhim aanthartahum am lam tunthirhum la yu/minoona
6. As to those who reject Faith,
It is the same to them
Whether thou warn them
Or do not warn them;
They will not believe.

7. Khatama Allahu AAala quloobihim waAAala samAAihim waAAala absarihim ghishawatun walahum AAathabun AAatheemun
7. God hath set a seal
On their hearts and on their hearing,
And on their eyes is a veil;
Great is the penalty they (incur).

8. Wamina alnnasi man yaqoolu amanna biAllahi wabialyawmi al-akhiri wama hum bimu/mineena
8. Of the people there are some who say:
"We believe in God and the Last Day;"
But they do not (really) believe.

9. YukhadiAAoona Allaha waallatheena amanoo wama yakhdaAAoona illa anfusahum wama yashAAuroona
9. Fain would they deceive
God and those who believe,
But they only deceive themselves,
And realize (it) not!

You are unable to provide any answers to the direct condemnation of void/unauthorized commentaries of Holy Scriptures. Check above verses. Dancing around the verses, without answering or touching them, like a camp-fire picnic, definitely is a waste of time. Your's and other's. Check your replies!

 

[Rational_Mind]

Sorry for the late reply

The Vedas have been preserved in writing ever since it was written. I have a copy of the Veda Samhita, so please dont tell me that there are no written Vedas or any philosophy on them.



If they are not prominent, then they were not Civilized enough to survive, let alone have any written documents.
The earliest written record we have is the Rig Veda.

You missed the point, I did not say it was never preserved. Please study the history behind its preservation. It was not written from the beginning, most of it was oral for so many years. The writing mediums were highly unreliable and reliable systematic ways of copying are not shown to be used in preserving the Vedas after it was written. It was in the oral state for so long while there were tribal groups with languages changing all around. Even when it was written language changed all around and we cannot accurately translate it because there is no solid historical record of writings in each period to study and find the changes. Accurate translation is very very hard, more honestly not possible in the entirety of the script.

Read up on the Vedic Sanskrit. I am not playing you here, I know it will not be acceptable for you but these are facts. I understand your view is most likely that despite this they are going to be fine. That is fine with me as far as your view is concerned, but will remain a red flag on top when I read it as a personal viewpoint.

 

[Rational_Mind]

I did answer.



If you cannot understand, and want me to expand on that, it simply means that Allah will not pitch one brother (of community A) against another (of community B). It is un-godly. It is not possible. You talk about rational, logic over blind-faith etc. Can't you see and understand this simple fact?

Also, please reflect on the below quotes.



You are unable to provide any answers to the direct condemnation of void/unauthorized commentaries of Holy Scriptures. Check above verses. Dancing around the verses, without answering or touching them, like a camp-fire picnic, definitely is a waste of time. Your's and other's. Check your replies!

That is why parents stress that children should go to school. Don't come and argue when you are stuck on your alphabets. Learn what symbolic language is, you use it yourself and then say it is literal. Foolish child you still cannot answer for the Vedas. You ran away every single time. Why should I bother answering your questions that are all directed to run away from where the Vedas failed you. I showed you a clear verse of the Quran that says that verses can be interpreted. Then I showed you clear verses were everyone has interpreted as non-literal, so where is your argument. Into the trash.

Maybe you are being childish because your apparent God once was a child who stole clothes of little girls. So you are following in these foolish footsteps. This can only and only be blind faith. Enjoy it if you want, but do not come on here wasting other peoples time.

This will be my last post. I have wasted enough time, I should have rather spent time on the other person who was going to give a more round take on his view on Hinduism.

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

Rational_Mind;2929158]You missed the point, I did not say it was never preserved. Please study the history behind its preservation. It was not written from the beginning, most of it was oral for so many years.

Yes, i agree it was orally transmitted prior to being written.

The writing mediums were highly unreliable and reliable systematic ways of copying are not shown to be used in preserving the Vedas after it was written.

If you look at the history of language, majority of the old world languages were influenced or even derived from Sanskrit. Sanskrit was spoken, then the sounds that the words made were written into symbols and a alphabet was produced, which was used to represent the sounds the words made orally.
It was taught and learned, and its what we call the Vedic language today.
The people who wrote it knew what was correct sound each character of the symbols represented.

The Vedic language was not copied from anywhere, it was made specifically to represent the spoken language of the time. Yes the mediums used were primitive to our standards, but they are still around, in their original form.

It was in the oral state for so long while there were tribal groups with languages changing all around.

Yes, but the Language of the Vedas were written before it went into any changes, that's how we know that Sanskrit language did exist in the first place.

Even when it was written language changed all around and we cannot accurately translate it because there is no solid historical record of writings in each period to study and find the changes.

There is, Yaksha Nirkuta/ Nighantu, manu smriti, Panini grammar and Dayanads translations, sayanas commenting and other documents are all from different periods of time.

Prior to these were the Brahmanas, Arynakas and Upanishads, all exist today, and preserve the historicity of the Vedic language. Also Itihas and Puranas give a good indication of the Authority and preservation and allude to its origins.

Without clear study of the entire Aryan History, all its writings and delve into its culture, no one can claim any mistranslations.

Accurate translation is very very hard, more honestly not possible in the entirety of the script.

unless the right tools of grammar and definitions are used, and the language is learned, accurate translations are not possible.

Read up on the Vedic Sanskrit. I am not playing you here, I know it will not be acceptable for you but these are facts. I understand your view is most likely that despite this they are going to be fine. That is fine with me as far as your view is concerned, but will remain a red flag on top when I read it as a personal viewpoint.[/QUOTE]

I have read about Vedic Sanskrit. I think, translations in English are not that accurate. not because of Sanskrit, but because of the English language.

 

[Vrindavana Das]

That is why parents stress that children should go to school. Don't come and argue when you are stuck on your alphabets. Learn what symbolic language is, you use it yourself and then say it is literal. Foolish child you still cannot answer for the Vedas. You ran away every single time. Why should I bother answering your questions that are all directed to run away from where the Vedas failed you.

You lack the basic qualifications to understand the Vedas, therefore I will refrain from discussing them with you. The rest, does not even qualify for my comment!

I showed you a clear verse of the Quran that says that verses can be interpreted.

Please read the verse again, and again & again...till you can understand what the verse is saying:

He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book; in it there are verses that are decisive in meaning-they are the basis of the Book-and there are others that are susceptible of interpretations. But those in whose hearts is perversity pursue thereof as are susceptible of different interpretations, seeking discord and seeking wrong interpretation of it. And none knows it's right interpretation except Allah and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge; they say, "we believe in it; the Whole is from our Lord'.-And none heed except those with understanding.


It clearly states:

1. The verses, that are decisive in meaning, are the basis of the Book.

2. Others are susceptible to interpretation. This is no license to interpret, like you have been advocating. On the contrary, it clearly condemns such unauthorized interpretations, saying only 'Allah' and Prophets, who firmly grounded in knowledge, know their meanings.

Still, you are reading such misleading commentaries?!! Please, for your own sake, do not behave like a headless horse!

Then I showed you clear verses were everyone has interpreted as non-literal, so where is your argument. Into the trash.

This is your quote:

And hold fast, all together, by the rope of Allah and be not divided; and remember the favour of Allah which He bestowed upon you when you were enemies and He united your hearts in love, so that by His grace you became as brothers; and you were on the brink of a pit of fire and He saved you from it. Thus does Allah explain to you His commandments that you may be guided. (3:104)

Where is the rope??

Please do not take things down to such a foolishly low-level of understanding.

Here, Allah is the rope, who is holding all together. So, what you are saying is "Where is Allah??"

In the Bhagavad Gita, Krishna Declares the same thing:

BG 7.7: O conqueror of wealth, there is no truth superior to Me. Everything rests upon Me, as pearls are strung on a thread.

So my friend, whose argument is into trash?!! I did not bother to reply to your foolish arguments, for you are like a kindergarten-going, wanting to criticize PhD. subjects.

This will be my last post. I have wasted enough time, I should have rather spent time on the other person who was going to give a more round take on his view on Hinduism.

Please do not discuss things to prove others wrong, and conditionally, to convert other's to your faith. Instead, you should spend time improving your understanding of Allah.There are many loop-holes in your understanding, to convince others.

Allah WILL NOT pitch one brother against another. Only foolish interpretations and ignorant commentaries, will decipher such an un-godly meaning, to the words of Allah!

You have been advocating non-authorized symbolic and metaphorical misinterpretations to the verses of the Holy Book. You yourself have become a victim of such misleading interpretations! It is sad!

 

[A-ManESL]

@ Vrindavan Das: The verse 3:7 has an even more extended meaning then what you propose. It condemns unauthorized interpretations and furthermore says that only God knows its full meaning. The words "and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge; they say, "we believe in it; the Whole is from our Lord'." should be read as a different sentence meaning that those with knowledge say that we believe in it and this is from God (and don't give out interpretations of their own to such verses). You can read several translations here to see how many people have translated this verse.

 

[atanu]

Maybe you are being childish because your apparent God once was a child who stole clothes of little girls. So you are following in these foolish footsteps. This can only and only be blind faith. Enjoy it if you want, but do not come on here wasting other peoples time.

That is extremely poor taste and wisdom.

 

[Vrindavana Das]

@ Vrindavan Das: The verse 3:7 has an even more extended meaning then what you propose. It condemns unauthorized interpretations and furthermore says that only God knows its full meaning. The words "and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge; they say, "we believe in it; the Whole is from our Lord'." should be read as a different sentence meaning that those with knowledge say that we believe in it and this is from God (and don't give out interpretations of their own to such verses). You can read several translations here to see how many people have translated this verse.

Yes! I see what you mean.

Thank you! :namaste