Sorry, but your response ignored the question I asked you (twice) and you just went on with your spiel. Never mind, let's drop it here.
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All Religions - Heaven = Running back to the nest, No Life
- Thread starter RamaRaksha
- Start date
SpeaksForTheTrees
Well-Known Member
Hi , yes my life is very good , however is my comfort worth the suffering of say those people that died in Syria today.
The system creates many victims each day , just sometimes find the whole idea a little disgusting .
I am very strong , so strong my concern more often favours the well being of others .
RamaRaksha
Active Member
And when did i patiently not answer anyone's question? Lots of answers and questions to my post and i feel i have answered all of them and sometimes you can get the answer based on the posts
All the answers to your questions is buried in the opening post - there is no heaven, no hell, no astral plane - it is a metaphor - just as people hoping for the "good old days" - nostalgia - but actually the good old days WERE true, they were true because we were kids then and as kids most of us had a happy life - it's the nest again - we were protected, sheltered, cared for, fed, clothed, bathed, had few worries - it was like living in a bubble and that is what heaven is - wanting to go back to living in a bubble - a child for eternity, looking for a Sugar Daddy to make it happen
God deserves better
Life is ALL there is - what you see before you is ALL there is - there are no magic lands in the sky - it is my personal opinion, of course, you are free to think otherwise
But i love Life - just as it is - warts and all - I feel Life is a Gift and Reincarnation means i get to savor this Gift over and over!
RamaRaksha
Active Member
Good to hear that and do you think you can do something to help those in Syria. You don't have to look faraway - the other day a young girl asked me for some help in the chilly chicago cold - was this young girl always this way? Maybe at one time she had a happy family - a father who doted on her, school and happy childhood days. And then maybe her father died, and some time later her mother starts dating another guy. A guy who starts abusing her and her mother chooses to look the other way and so this kid leaves home and takes to the streets. Just thinking about it breaks my heart
And this is just one sad story - millions like these all over the globe and let's not get started on how animals are abused
The thing is that if people like you choose to stay, we can fight this - we can make this a better world - we think we have it bad today but the past was much harsher, much more terrible - at the end of the day that is the teaching of Reincarnation - not that it is true, but it is asking us to choose a state of mind. Many Hindus run away from life, they think renunciation of life will lead to a happy afterlife. We have Terrorism today thanks to people running away from life and thinking God will reward them with heaven. Take away heaven, tell them that they will be reborn in this same world, nothing is going to change unless they are willing to fight for it and maybe Terrorism will be no more
I guess we are better off then not talking to each other (per your previous request).
Corthos
Great Old One
At first I thought I had just explained myself in a way that you misconstrued due to the vague/allusive way I sometimes speak/structure sentences (I've always considered myself a poet at heart, though that's not always a good thing, hehe), but I'm beginning to wonder if you are purposeful taking my words out of context to fit them to your narrative/agenda...
Please address my points in post #35 when you get the chance (I realize there's a lot to go through there, so there's no rush).
RamaRaksha
Active Member
If i speak in a way that others might find it tough to understand i don't mock them for not understanding them - it works in reverse also - maybe i am not so bright - maybe they are answering my questions and i am not getting it
We are different people, we view life differently - we can leave it at that instead of talking about some agendas
RamaRaksha
Active Member
Hopefully i can get to all the questions - as to the first question - you already know about Reincarnation - to me the concept was misunderstood back in the day, life was pretty tough and people were weakened by life and naturally hoped for a nicer after life. So it is a different way of thinking - the coward and the warrior don't see the impending war the same way - all the coward sees is blood and pain and looks for the first opportunity to run away and religions were happy to fill that need with a magical heaven, whereas the warrior sees a chance to be a hero, save his people. I believe the concept of Reincarnation was the latter - no running away to magical lands of plenty, no Sugar Daddy Gods
I do get a bit frustrated with blindly reading ancient books - you do realize that these books were put together? by people? If i were to be born a 1,000 years ago and wrote down what i write now, it will be accepted as the Truth? The ancients wrote down laws and morals the best way they understood them, that fit their way of life - it seems we have advanced in so many ways but as far as religion goes we blindly follow old ideas that don't fit our way of life, that are out of date
As for Suicide - i can't answer for everyone - no one can - there a million different interpretations and ideas - if a certain idea has to address all ideas out there, then nothing will be said. Yes the more fundamental - these are Master/Slave religions born when Kings ruled - they were masters of their land and must be obeyed unconditionally - slaves are all about the reward - heaven - the most callous thing that these people do is to condemn the rest of humanity to hell - we are talking good people with loved ones and families but that doesn't matter - you do not kneel to our master, you must be punished. Hence Terrorism - the preacher says God commands you to do this - they do it
As for helping out it seems similar to praying - basically talking without doing anything. Don't you think helping would mean that you would have to be down here? Not somewhere up there? And if helping is the goal, how come you are not reborn? Why stay away and talk about helping? How exactly is this help being done? Is there any evidence of such help? Seems like you want to have your cake and eat it too - not be involved with the problems of life but just talk about helping - pat yourself on the back as if you are doing stuff
If you choose Reincarnation - you are not just helping, you are down here with us - undergoing the same pain and suffering as everyone else - that, unfortunately has been the problem and has given rise to heavens above - as you posted warriors get to eat, drink and be merry? They don't need to help? What happened to all this talk of helping?
More war and killing - even in the after life? Sounds just like real life to me - you can't have your cake and eat it too
Corthos
Great Old One
Ok, thank you. =)
Seems odd to base an opinion on an opinion without proof, but meh, oh well. XD Let me tell you the main reasons why your idea doesn't sit well with me (personally)....
What you seem to be saying is that since all cowards are concerned with selfishly avoiding hardships, and all of those who selfishly want to avoid hardships would believe that a paradise existed after death, then all who believe that a paradise exists after death are cowards.
Let's use that same logic with something else.
If all people eat vegetables, and all vegetables are healthy, then all people are healthy. =/
Logic like that doesn't take into account all of the different variables that go into something as complex as a person's beliefs and their frame of mind.
Not only that, but you are giving way too much significance to just one aspect out of many that a religion adheres to. Many people follow a religion simply because it's what they grew up with (it's their culture), or it's teachings give them inspiration. Many just accept their paradise doctrine because it doesn't truly matter to them (they just don't give a damn about it). To say a person/religion is fundamentally screwed up because of one aspect (that ultimately only effects the weak to begin with) seems disingenuous...
Look at Gandhi. He inspired great men like Martin Luther King, and gave a TRUE voice to non-violent activism. The world is a better place because of him. He was also obsessed with celibacy because it wasn't good for men to drain themselves of their "vital fluids"... He would even sometimes work this weird obsession with bodily fluids into his sermons. XD The fact Gandhi had that weird obsession doesn't diminish his effect on the world in any real way... =)
I hear you there. =)
Personally, I would say that the Gathas are timeless, but I'm not unbiased. XD (though, to be fair, they felt that way to me even after I blindly read them, hehe)
Hmmmm... Keep in mind that fundamentalism even exists in Hinduism. Reward has little to do with it, as it's more about dogma and following scriptures blindly than anything else. Unfortunately, I've seen what this does first hand, as I grew up going to some fundamentalist churches. XP
Actually, the way they described it was more as a supernatural intervention... There was no "up there".
Remember, again, that those are NOT my beliefs. I like the idea of helping people after death, but their ideas of ghost powers were very un-Gathic. Good questions, though, which is why I didn't take them too seriously. XD As for having my "cake and eating it too": honestly, I don't give a damn. What happens to me when I die is irrelevant, whether it's reincarnation (which I highly doubt exists) or some kind of Abrahamic paradise (which I also don't believe in).
The point with Ragnarok was to show you that there are afterlife doctrines that are more "hardcore" than reincarnation (after all, anyone who believes in Ragnarok assumes their afterlife is temporary, and they will lose in the end) . XD Honestly, basing an entire belief system on whether or not an afterlife doctrine is one way or the other seems silly to me... I don't concern myself with what might be, but instead I concern myself with what is... With what we do in THIS life. =)
Seems odd to base an opinion on an opinion without proof, but meh, oh well. XD Let me tell you the main reasons why your idea doesn't sit well with me (personally)....
What you seem to be saying is that since all cowards are concerned with selfishly avoiding hardships, and all of those who selfishly want to avoid hardships would believe that a paradise existed after death, then all who believe that a paradise exists after death are cowards.
Let's use that same logic with something else.
If all people eat vegetables, and all vegetables are healthy, then all people are healthy. =/
Logic like that doesn't take into account all of the different variables that go into something as complex as a person's beliefs and their frame of mind.
Not only that, but you are giving way too much significance to just one aspect out of many that a religion adheres to. Many people follow a religion simply because it's what they grew up with (it's their culture), or it's teachings give them inspiration. Many just accept their paradise doctrine because it doesn't truly matter to them (they just don't give a damn about it). To say a person/religion is fundamentally screwed up because of one aspect (that ultimately only effects the weak to begin with) seems disingenuous...
Look at Gandhi. He inspired great men like Martin Luther King, and gave a TRUE voice to non-violent activism. The world is a better place because of him. He was also obsessed with celibacy because it wasn't good for men to drain themselves of their "vital fluids"... He would even sometimes work this weird obsession with bodily fluids into his sermons. XD The fact Gandhi had that weird obsession doesn't diminish his effect on the world in any real way... =)
I hear you there. =)
Personally, I would say that the Gathas are timeless, but I'm not unbiased. XD (though, to be fair, they felt that way to me even after I blindly read them, hehe)
Hmmmm... Keep in mind that fundamentalism even exists in Hinduism. Reward has little to do with it, as it's more about dogma and following scriptures blindly than anything else. Unfortunately, I've seen what this does first hand, as I grew up going to some fundamentalist churches. XP
Actually, the way they described it was more as a supernatural intervention... There was no "up there".
Remember, again, that those are NOT my beliefs. I like the idea of helping people after death, but their ideas of ghost powers were very un-Gathic. Good questions, though, which is why I didn't take them too seriously. XD As for having my "cake and eating it too": honestly, I don't give a damn. What happens to me when I die is irrelevant, whether it's reincarnation (which I highly doubt exists) or some kind of Abrahamic paradise (which I also don't believe in).
The point with Ragnarok was to show you that there are afterlife doctrines that are more "hardcore" than reincarnation (after all, anyone who believes in Ragnarok assumes their afterlife is temporary, and they will lose in the end) . XD Honestly, basing an entire belief system on whether or not an afterlife doctrine is one way or the other seems silly to me... I don't concern myself with what might be, but instead I concern myself with what is... With what we do in THIS life. =)
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
If one believes in God, soul, reincarnation, reward and punishment - then, heaven and hell are necessary corollaries.
From an LDS perspective, Heaven may mean eternal progression. No bubble. Just learning and learning and growing and gaining experience until one day you are "like God." What do you think of that kind of Heaven?
We believe there are two destinations for souls
1. The Heaven , which is The Golden age , where people live in harmony , happiness , joy ,love , bliss .
2. The Soul world , which is a peaceful home of inactivity , where the souls reside in peace until being called to play their roles.
The little creature didn't run back to safety because it wasn't tired yet , and believed there was more adventure, excitement and amusement ahead.
The same is true for Humans , once we are exhausted playing , and amusing ourselves with self destruction , once we turn this garden into an uninhabitable jungle , we will call on God to return us back home .
What about Earth ?
Seems as if 'everlasting life living on Earth forever' is often left out of the future picture.
In the Bible, Jesus promised people ' Earth ' as a forever future home - Matthew 5:5
Earth will become a beautiful paradisical Earth as the Garden of Eden originally was.
Earth's nations will be healed - Revelation 22:2 - and No more death on Earth - 1 Corinthians 15:26
Enemy death will be swallowed up forever - Isaiah 25:8
All Religions - Heaven = Running back to the nest, No Life
It is only with Heaven that you will find life! When you are in Heaven you have not tasted the 2nd death, instead, you are found walking on streets paved with gold. An eternity will not be enough time to praise the one true God who sent His Son to take our sin-death and offer us eternal salvation instead. The resurrection of Jesus defeated death for all who put their trust in Him.
Choosing Heaven means saying goodbye to not having a life, choosing to stay a child forever, forever afraid to grow up.
In choosing Heaven, you are choosing LIFE, you are choosing to be a Child of the One True God, anxious to grow more and more as a child in Christ.
ronandcarol
It is only with Heaven that you will find life! When you are in Heaven you have not tasted the 2nd death, instead, you are found walking on streets paved with gold. An eternity will not be enough time to praise the one true God who sent His Son to take our sin-death and offer us eternal salvation instead. The resurrection of Jesus defeated death for all who put their trust in Him.
Choosing Heaven means saying goodbye to not having a life, choosing to stay a child forever, forever afraid to grow up.
In choosing Heaven, you are choosing LIFE, you are choosing to be a Child of the One True God, anxious to grow more and more as a child in Christ.
ronandcarol