All Religions - Heaven = Running back to the nest, No Life

[Corthos]

We are born, we are alive

True.

- that's a fact that we can't ignore

Absolutely.

- Reincarnation deals with life as we know it

Ok.

- whereas there is zero evidence of any heavens or hells

...And that's where you lose me... There's no reliable evidence that reincarnation exists, either. They are both just concepts of what may happen to our souls when we die. Abrahamic religions aren't the only ones with concepts of eternal paradise, and Dharmic religions aren't the only ones with concepts of reincarnation.

- as i wrote in the opening heaven is the dream of the weak, the lazy - hoping for a Sugar Daddy to keep them in comfort

Honestly, it seems like an unfair, or even an ignorant characterization to me. I could just as easily make the ham fisted accusation that "People who believe in reincarnation don't take life seriously. They think that if they screw up in this life, they can just have another chance later on in another life." Saying "people who believe in heaven are cowards/weak willed" is too broad of a brush to paint with.... While some people are those things, there are many heavens, many motivations, and many different mentalities that people can have in regards to that sort of belief. For example, I was reading about how some Zoroastrians have a concept of paradise as total enlightenment: a state of mind. They would have a total understanding of existence, and as existence itself progresses itself to a point of total perfection (via evolution, and the effect that intelligent life has on the universe), they would participate with Ahura Mazda (as his helpers) to see this perfection realized. I don't know if I believe that, but it seems beautiful to me... =)

but if we lived back in the day - diseases killing entire families, people dying in their early 30's, little law and order - you can see why people hoped for a nicer after life and religions were quite happy to tell them what they wanted to hear

That's a mighty big assumption you make there. As you know, Dharmic religions are some of the oldest in the world. They were around "back in the day" and came to a different conclusion. Some religions back then taught that you were going to fight until your inevitable destruction in the afterlife. Others taught that the afterlife was a dangerous place where you could easily lose your soul... While some religious teachings might have had intentions like you claim (I can think of a few), I feel that it doesn't apply to all religions with paradises. Again, too broad of a brush...

I believe that ancient Hindus saw that and they saw weakness - people running away from life and so they came up with the idea of Reincarnation - choose Life, warts and all - you die, you come right back - no running away - actually when you think about it Reincarnation is a metaphor for leaving the nest. Why did Reincarnation fell out of favor? Because instead of choosing to sit in some nice fantasy land of plenty, safe and secure(the nest) Hinduism was asking us to choose Life, Real Life - where there is pain and suffering - just as the little creature chose to leave the nest even though there was danger, hunger and uncertainity - as we all do one day - we leave the safety and comfort of home(heaven) and make our own way in the world(Reincarnation)

Or, you know, it just made the most sense to them... Everyone wants to know what happens to them after they die; reincarnation is just one explanation of many that the ancients had, and what people believe IS influenced greatly by the platform of their religion. Many practicing religious people now don't follow their religion because "I want security!", but because they feel the teachings are right. For me, I am a Zoroastrian because I strive for good thoughts, good words, and good deeds. I believe that there is more to existence than death, but I don't let it define my attitudes or my state of mind. I have one life, and I will spend it wisely. =)

So, at the end of the day since we have no evidence, all we have are ideas. The idea of a heaven will appeal to the weak, whereas the Strong will choose Reincarnation

Uh huh... And the stronger will choose Ragnarok.

 

[kalyan]

Hindus believe in Reincarnation - we are reborn - savor God's Gift of Life once more

Yes but in sanatana dharma, heaven is just a temporary place not permanent...The permanent place or the eternal abode is called as Paramapadam or Sri Vaikuntam, you seem to have confused these terms

 

[RamaRaksha]

You missed my question: Do you believe in immediate reincarnation? Forever?

1. Gift of Life - yes - i am never going to say no
2. Just saw the new star wars - the movie was bad but i love the idea that one day humanity will travel the stars & i want to be a part of it
3. The next Einstein, Gandhiji, Marie Curie, Michelangelo, Mozart, Subbalaxmi - will be born from those who choose Reincarnation
4. Lastly, it is somewhat like going to war - one should not focus on winning the war and being hailed as a great hero - one could get killed also. Reincarnation asks for commitment - just as a soldier is asked to commit to defend his country without any expectation of grandeur

 

[RamaRaksha]

That's a very simplistic and silly idea of Heaven. Maybe you should go read what theologians, artists, Saints and mystics have to say about Heaven in order to gain a more mature understanding of the Christian view of it (especially the Catholic and Orthodox Christian view of it, which tend to be more considered since they've been around longer than the others).

Yes funny i should go ask the very same biased people pushing this ponzi-scheme
Question: Did the mature understanding of heaven escape you? Why not post it? But then you will be exposed to examination and ridicule?

 

[RamaRaksha]

Yes but in sanatana dharma, heaven is just a temporary place not permanent...The permanent place or the eternal abode is called as Paramapadam or Sri Vaikuntam, you seem to have confused these terms

There is no magic land of plenty where you think you can just sit back and take it easy. Once this life ends unless you come back, there will be no life. You can choose to be part of the universe just as a beam of light, an atom is - but you won't be able to see, nor hear nor think - you will just exist, that's all

 

[RamaRaksha]

Until some twisted child comes along and torches your world, armed with an aerosol n clipper . Return as a king Crab to find myself sloshing about in the tanks of a trawler for weeks before being cooked alive . No thanks bro once enough for me ..

It is somewhat like failing school - will they make you go back? of course not - you have reached this level of humanity, you don't go back unless you want to - and you ask why would anyone want to be a bug or a tree? Well, those who seek heaven, those who find human life too taxing - they seek an easier life - just sit back and do nothing - and those are the people who will be reborn as trees or bugs

If you choose Reincarnation - knowing full well that human life comes with pain and suffering, you will be reborn as a human. But if you ultimately decide life in any form is not for you, then you can choose to not exist - that is also an option - God will not stop you

 

[RamaRaksha]

True.

...And that's where you lose me... There's no reliable evidence that reincarnation exists, either. They are both just concepts of what may happen to our souls when we die. Abrahamic religions aren't the only ones with concepts of eternal paradise, and Dharmic religions aren't the only ones with concepts of reincarnation.

Honestly, it seems like an unfair, or even an ignorant characterization to me. I could just as easily make the ham fisted accusation that "People who believe in reincarnation don't take life seriously. They think that if they screw up in this life, they can just have another chance later on in another life." Saying "people who believe in heaven are cowards/weak willed" is too broad of a brush to paint with.... While some people are those things, there are many heavens, many motivations, and many different mentalities that people can have in regards to that sort of belief. For example, I was reading about how some Zoroastrians have a concept of paradise as total enlightenment: a state of mind. They would have a total understanding of existence, and as existence itself progresses itself to a point of total perfection (via evolution, and the effect that intelligent life has on the universe), they would participate with Ahura Mazda (as his helpers) to see this perfection realized. I don't know if I believe that, but it seems beautiful to me... =)

Or, you know, it just made the most sense to them... Everyone wants to know what happens to them after they die; reincarnation is just one explanation of many that the ancients had, and what people believe IS influenced greatly by the platform of their religion. Many practicing religious people now don't follow their religion because "I want security!", but because they feel the teachings are right. For me, I am a Zoroastrian because I strive for good thoughts, good words, and good deeds. I believe that there is more to existence than death, but I don't let it define my attitudes or my state of mind. I have one life, and I will spend it wisely. =)

Uh huh... And the stronger will choose Ragnarok.

Answers to your observations: yes i have said that there is no evidence for Reincarnation either - Hindus were fighting ideas with an idea. They saw Heaven as running away from life - there is a reason why Christians say Suicide is a sin - they had to - why would any fool stay here fighting to make a meager living, when there is a Sugar Daddy waiting with a bucket of chicken ready? And so Hindus said, you die, you come right back, no running away. We would have far less terrorism if people embraced Reincarnation - suicide bombers and killers are those who have given up on life, they are checking out of this world and hope to enjoy the good life in heaven

yes there can be many heavens and many ideas - i can't answer to all of them - when anyone says anything common sense says it is taken as what the vast majority believes - and what do the vast majority believe of heaven? A nice place to rest - no more pain or suffering, eternal joy forever! Seems like a fantasy to me

Reg Zoroastrianism - God needs our help? And they are not succeeding at this job? Again they go off to some magical land where they get to live the good life? no problems of life? No working 3 jobs a day, taking care of kids, dealing with diseases, worrying over loved ones? Again just a fantasy that's all

Glad that you strive for good thoughts and good deeds - really don't you think God needs people like you down here instead of sitting in some faraway magic land enjoying yourself? Seems pretty selfish to me. There is pain here, suffering is here, God needs you here, in fact God is here

And what is Ragnarok?

 

[RamaRaksha]

True.

...And that's where you lose me... There's no reliable evidence that reincarnation exists, either. They are both just concepts of what may happen to our souls when we die. Abrahamic religions aren't the only ones with concepts of eternal paradise, and Dharmic religions aren't the only ones with concepts of reincarnation.

.

The big difference is that while one says there will be pain and suffering, Real Life the other is preaching a fantasy - a cartoon land of plenty. Difference between what a good stock investor promises and what a Bernie Madoff promises

Does it make any sort of sense to think that right now there are millions of people just sitting on their butts doing nothing and snoring away eternity? And God has nothing better to do than cater to these cowards and lazy butts? That's the Grand Plan? Even more incredible is how religions have brainwashed even the best of them to think that belonging to x or y religion is what will get them that good life. Shows that the greed for the good easy life can brainwash even the most brilliant

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

It is somewhat like failing school - will they make you go back? of course not - you have reached this level of humanity, you don't go back unless you want to - and you ask why would anyone want to be a bug or a tree? Well, those who seek heaven, those who find human life too taxing - they seek an easier life - just sit back and do nothing - and those are the people who will be reborn as trees or bugs

If you choose Reincarnation - knowing full well that human life comes with pain and suffering, you will be reborn as a human. But if you ultimately decide life in any form is not for you, then you can choose to not exist - that is also an option - God will not stop you

We get a choice ? Don't remember ever being consulted .
Kind of makes the whole exercise of reincarnation pointless not to mention just as problematic as the concept of heaven.
This is my first life since the beginning of time ? Can not remember ever being anything else , again imho makes it all pointless .
Its not that I find life to taxing ,lol , I will never compromise however the dilemma is the question of. Is my comfort worth their suffering ?.

 

[RamaRaksha]

We get a choice ? Don't remember ever being consulted .
Kind of makes the whole exercise of reincarnation pointless not to mention just as problematic as the concept of heaven.
This is my first life since the beginning of time ? Can not remember ever being anything else , again imho makes it all pointless .
Its not that I find life to taxing ,lol , I will never compromise however the dilemma is the question of. Is my comfort worth their suffering ?.

Do you remember your childhood? When you were a baby, 1 or 2 year-old? Then it didn't happen?

Again i have stressed that Reincarnation is also just an idea - it has not been proven - ancient Hindus were fighting ideas with ideas - the idea of a Heaven - a Sugar Daddy waiting with a bucket of chicken, he has nothing better to do than nursemaid billions - is running away from life. We have Terrorism today thanks to this idea of heaven - people choosing to run away from a life that they find tiring. And so Hindus came up with the idea of Reincarnation - no running away, you die, come right back - back to the same old problems - no wonder Heaven is so much more popular than Reincarnation

I didn't get your question - your comfort is worth whose suffering?

Ultimately you don't have to choose Life - God will not force life on you - if you don't want life, you don't have to have it. You will just blink out of existence, that's all

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

Do you remember your childhood? When you were a baby, 1 or 2 year-old? Then it didn't happen?

Again i have stressed that Reincarnation is also just an idea - it has not been proven - ancient Hindus were fighting ideas with ideas - the idea of a Heaven - a Sugar Daddy waiting with a bucket of chicken, he has nothing better to do than nursemaid billions - is running away from life. We have Terrorism today thanks to this idea of heaven - people choosing to run away from a life that they find tiring. And so Hindus came up with the idea of Reincarnation - no running away, you die, come right back - back to the same old problems - no wonder Heaven is so much more popular than Reincarnation

I didn't get your question - your comfort is worth whose suffering?

Ultimately you don't have to choose Life - God will not force life on you - if you don't want life, you don't have to have it. You will just blink out of existence, that's all

Blink out of existence ,, out of the three to myself personally the latter is the possibility that makes the most logical sense and is also the least problematic and also the possibility that I'd personally feel most comfortable with.
Heaven would never work is a silly concept imho , as i have witnessed realities on earth that would taint the stay.
Do not fancy the idea of coming back as someone's gut bacteria either to be honest.
If you hadn't noticed already this is a bug planet ,ourselves a living incubator , best not to listen to those lil buggers to often D they have an overwhelming desire to survive.

 

[George-ananda]

1. Gift of Life - yes - i am never going to say no
2. Just saw the new star wars - the movie was bad but i love the idea that one day humanity will travel the stars & i want to be a part of it
3. The next Einstein, Gandhiji, Marie Curie, Michelangelo, Mozart, Subbalaxmi - will be born from those who choose Reincarnation
4. Lastly, it is somewhat like going to war - one should not focus on winning the war and being hailed as a great hero - one could get killed also. Reincarnation asks for commitment - just as a soldier is asked to commit to defend his country without any expectation of grandeur

I am beginning to think now you are just Rama the Troll wasting my time.

 

[kalyan]

There is no magic land of plenty where you think you can just sit back and take it easy. Once this life ends unless you come back, there will be no life. You can choose to be part of the universe just as a beam of light, an atom is - but you won't be able to see, nor hear nor think - you will just exist, that's all

I am not telling my opinion and your post is your opinion and you project it as a fact..Hypocricy much ?

 

[Jedster]

Him = Truth - it is not some magic being. Not sure about bonds being broken - to me that's running away from life

Him = Truth - it is not some magic being.

I agree, but Kabir was a poet and uses poetic license for the people of his time.

Not sure about bonds being broken - to me that's running away from life
I take this to mean not be believe in the temporal things in life as absolute.

 

[Corthos]

Hmmm... I understand that sometimes I speak in ways that aren't clear/are ambiguous (my girlfriend yells at me all the time for it XD), and it seem as though I wasn't clear enough for you to understand certain things. I'll try and fix that. =)

Answers to your observations: yes i have said that there is no evidence for Reincarnation either - Hindus were fighting ideas with an idea. They saw Heaven as running away from life

I'd like to know why you draw these conclusions... What literature have you read that leads you to believe this happened? Links would be nice. =)

- there is a reason why Christians say Suicide is a sin - they had to - why would any fool stay here fighting to make a meager living, when there is a Sugar Daddy waiting with a bucket of chicken ready?

Hmmm... Possibly. Though, keep in mind that there are other religions with paradise themes that have no such stipulations on suicide.

And so Hindus said, you die, you come right back, no running away. We would have far less terrorism if people embraced Reincarnation - suicide bombers and killers are those who have given up on life, they are checking out of this world and hope to enjoy the good life in heaven

I doubt it. Parsis have a paradise belief, though the amount of terrorism they inflict on the world is nearly non existent (if at all). I feel it has FAR more to do with scripture, and with fundamentalism - notice the more fundamental denominations in these religions are the ones doing these acts of terror.

yes there can be many heavens and many ideas - i can't answer to all of them - when anyone says anything common sense says it is taken as what the vast majority believes - and what do the vast majority believe of heaven? A nice place to rest - no more pain or suffering, eternal joy forever! Seems like a fantasy to me

Fair enough (though I disagree about your willingness to make assumptions so readily - research and open mindedness is important). That applies to you, but everyone will have their own ideas/opinions.

Reg Zoroastrianism

(by Reg do you mean regular?) I feel you may have misunderstood me here. What I was referring to was a Zoroastrian thread I was reading a while back that someone had written on a different forum, and NO other Zoroastrians I have talked to had these beliefs (Not traditional, Parsi, or Gathic) - let me try to clarify what I remember (having a hard time remembering how I got to the thread, otherwise I would link it for you).

- God needs our help?

What they were discussing was that, since Good Deeds are one of the three concepts that Zoroastrianism focuses on, it would only make sense that in death our souls would still continually help people/the world/universe in the afterlife.... They seemed to talk about how THAT is why ghost sightings existed (spirits doing good things in this world). Seems like a stretch to me (meaning, I don't believe it). =/

And they are not succeeding at this job?

What?... I'll chalk this up to misunderstanding.

Again they go off to some magical land where they get to live the good life?

No, their concept was more Gathic. Many Gathic Zoroastrias (at least as far as I know) see "heaven" as a state of mind, rather than some physical realm. I'm studying up on that more as I'm still a Zoroastrian newb, so don't take what I say as a literal truth (I could be wrong... Need to research more).

no problems of life? No working 3 jobs a day, taking care of kids, dealing with diseases, worrying over loved ones? Again just a fantasy that's all

On the contrary, they thought that in the afterlife those who were in a good state of mind would naturally want to help out those in the real world; this is why it seemed beautiful to me (though, their total concept seemed unlikely, as "ghosts" aren't really a Zoroastrian concept as far as I know). =)

Glad that you strive for good thoughts and good deeds - really don't you think God needs people like you down here instead of sitting in some faraway magic land enjoying yourself? Seems pretty selfish to me. There is pain here, suffering is here, God needs you here, in fact God is here

Let me reiterate - those are not my personal beliefs; in fact, no Zoroastrians I know believe what I stated above. My beliefs are vague, and I'm still trying to figure things out for myself. Right now, personally, I believe that there is more to life after death, and I believe life/the world/universe is constantly progressing in a positive way (in the general sense, as suffering is still rampant in the world) - as long as people strive to do the right thing. As I said before, what happens after I die is an afterthought.

And what is Ragnarok?

I feel a little uncomfortable answering this, as I'd be answering that question as an outsider (it'd be like asking a Christian what Muslims believe). I will try my best, though, and if anyone wants to set me straight on the truth (when I get something wrong), please do!

Ragnarok is the "Doom of the Gods" - Apocalypse.

Essentially, when good/honorable warriors die in combat, some of them are taken to Valhalla (the great hall - a paradise) to eat, drink, be merry, and prepare for Ragnarok. Eventually, a whole bunch of crazy apocalyptic stuff happens (read up if you want specifics - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragnarök), and Ragnarok unfolds. Many Gods and people (and people's souls who join the fight) perish in an epic battle, and everything pretty much dies/is destroyed. Almost nothing is left. The land sinks into the depths of the ocean, and then it resurfaces. A new world sprouts, new Gods are born, there are two people left (man and woman), and the cycle of life begins all over again.

At least, that is my understanding. =)

 

[Corthos]

The big difference is that while one says there will be pain and suffering, Real Life the other is preaching a fantasy - a cartoon land of plenty. Difference between what a good stock investor promises and what a Bernie Madoff promises

Does it make any sort of sense to think that right now there are millions of people just sitting on their butts doing nothing and snoring away eternity? And God has nothing better to do than cater to these cowards and lazy butts? That's the Grand Plan? Even more incredible is how religions have brainwashed even the best of them to think that belonging to x or y religion is what will get them that good life. Shows that the greed for the good easy life can brainwash even the most brilliant

You are arguing that one fantasy is more realistic than another. It's like arguing that Loony Toons are more cartoony than He-Man. =/

That's an awful condescending, and pessimistic view you have of a very, very broad range of people. =/ ...You honestly believe that applies to the majority (and that paradise ideologies are the reason why)?...

 

[RamaRaksha]

Blink out of existence ,, out of the three to myself personally the latter is the possibility that makes the most logical sense and is also the least problematic and also the possibility that I'd personally feel most comfortable with.
Heaven would never work is a silly concept imho , as i have witnessed realities on earth that would taint the stay.
Do not fancy the idea of coming back as someone's gut bacteria either to be honest.
If you hadn't noticed already this is a bug planet ,ourselves a living incubator , best not to listen to those lil buggers to often D they have an overwhelming desire to survive.

Frustrated with the lack of imagination - you heard somewhere that we get reborn as bugs and you blindly repeat it - talk about religious brainwashing - i increasingly find even Atheists are not immune to it
If you do not wish for life, then you won't have it - no one is going to force life on you - seems like your hatred of religion has made you convince yourself that way is the best. Life is not about religion - the ancients who proposed that we are reborn were not Hindus at that time, they were just people living in India and there was no Hinduism then, these are just ideas of what Life is - so please, don't make decisions based on your hatred of religion, you are not subscribing to any religion if you wish for rebirth. Ultimately it is about you - what you want
As for being reborn as bugs - that is only if you wish to be born as such - and why would anyone in their right mind want to be reborn as bugs? To me, those are those who wish for a heaven - a nice comfy life without any problems or worries - a bug has few worries - it has a nice comfy life short as it might be
As for your last sentence, we have it much better today than our ancestors - i think the plague killed off 50-70% of the European population - they survived that. Giving up is easy, fighting is hard

 

[RamaRaksha]

You are arguing that one fantasy is more realistic than another. It's like arguing that Loony Toons are more cartoony than He-Man. =/

That's an awful condescending, and pessimistic view you have of a very, very broad range of people. =/ ...You honestly believe that applies to the majority (and that paradise ideologies are the reason why)?...

Not really - we get life, warts and all - pain and suffering accompanies life -whereas heaven sounds too good to be true - nothing to do, a Sugar Daddy God who will take care of our comforts, enjoy the good life? The difference is night and day or as i posted the diff between remaining a child forever in the nest or venturing out and becoming an adult - please re-read my original post again

 

[RamaRaksha]

I am beginning to think now you are just Rama the Troll wasting my time.

One thing i am not going to do is to stoop to personal insults - then it means i have lost the discussion, i am upset and am lashing out. Please do not reply to my posts ever again. thanks

 

[RamaRaksha]

I am not telling my opinion and your post is your opinion and you project it as a fact..Hypocricy much ?

We are just posting our thoughts - that's all. You are entitled to your opinions as i am - my posts bother you and so does your bother me. All I keep saying is the notion that there is a magic being who will give us the good life does not exist. God Krishna made that clear in the Mahabharata

Please keep an open mind - there are plenty of different opinions in Hinduism - when after winning the war, Yudhistira wanted to give it all up and go to the forest, Bhima mocks all Sanyas - he says if having no desires will get one moksha then trees and the mountains would have gotten Moksha a long time ago