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Featured All Religions - Heaven = Running back to the nest, No Life

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by RamaRaksha, Feb 13, 2016.

  1. RamaRaksha

    RamaRaksha Active Member

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    When i hear the concept of Heaven - endless days of joy and happiness, i think of the famous proverb - "if something sounds too good to be true, it probably is" - that describes heaven

    Heaven is a fantasy. Heaven is a metaphor for the womb, childhood, the past, running back to the nest. Childhood, the womb was a wonderful time for us - we were cared for, protected, sheltered, fed, kept away from the problems of life - basically we lived in a bubble

    Basically heaven is just that - a bubble.

    I was watching a nature documentary the other day - this mouse like creature living in the Australian desert, a young thing - while its mother was out hunting, curious unlike its siblings, ventures out of the nest. It gets lost as it gets attacked by an owl - somehow learns to fend for itself by learning to catch and eat bugs - does that for a while and then suddenly one day it finds itself right back home! There is the little entrance to its former home, his mother and siblings waiting for him inside - safety and security at last! But then the creature stops, doesn't go inside! Instead it turns around and makes its way into the world!

    That creature has learnt what its siblings will also one day, as we all have also - that we cannot be children all our lives, that our parents cannot provide and protect us forever - that we have to grow up sometime - become Adults, make a life for ourselves

    That's the problem with heaven - it is a metaphor for running back to the safety of the nest, but why didn't the little creature not do that? Instead of safety, security and happiness it chose danger, having to stand on its own two feet - because the latter meant having a life! Choosing Heaven means saying goodbye to not having a life, choosing to stay a child forever, forever afraid to grow up
     
  2. Corthos

    Corthos Great Old One

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    Hmmm... Which heaven, exactly? Would you apply your opinion to, say, Valhalla as well?
     
  3. RamaRaksha

    RamaRaksha Active Member

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    If it meets the proverb's conditions, then yes
     
  4. kalyan

    kalyan Aspiring Sri VaishNava

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    What is there in heaven acc. to your religion
     
  5. George-ananda

    George-ananda Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
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    So what do you think happens when we die?
     
  6. Jedster

    Jedster Well-Known Member

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    Many assume that after death we will attain something we cannot attain while living. It is an assumption.
    Kabir says it beautifully:


    O friend! hope for Him whilst you live, know whilst you live,
    understand whilst you live: for in life deliverance abides.
    If your bonds be not broken whilst living, what hope of
    deliverance in death?
    It is but an empty dream, that the soul shall have union with Him
    because it has passed from the body:
    If He is found now, He is found then,
    If not, we do but go to dwell in the City of Death.
    If you have union now, you shall have it hereafter.
    Bathe in the truth, know the true Guru, have faith in the true
    Name!
    Kabîr says: 'It is the Spirit of the quest which helps; I am the slave of this Spirit of the quest.
     
  7. SpeaksForTheTrees

    SpeaksForTheTrees Well-Known Member

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    So when we get to heaven is it OK to object about the way things are on earth , the horrors I've witnessed how wasteful the order of life is etc or should I just keep my mouth shut and enjoy the view , hoping my stay in heaven isn't tainted by this part , memories of what's happening on earth , must have memories in heaven ? Kinda makes this part worthless without , hope they don't play to much on my emotions .
    Heaven only for very selfish people imho
     
  8. George-ananda

    George-ananda Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
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    My question though was not how you feel about heaven but was about what you think actually happens to us.

    I am a non-dual (God and creation are not-two) Hindu type. We are in the long, long process of learning and realizing the Oneness of all Consciousness. Most of us will live for some time on a beautiful astral plane, then probably reincarnate until ultimate Liberation/Nirvana/Moksha.
     
  9. RamaRaksha

    RamaRaksha Active Member

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    You seem Hindu - we are reborn - reincarnated - God's Gift of Life but that is a choice - it is not forced - you don't have to be reborn, so basically you choose not to exist
     
  10. RamaRaksha

    RamaRaksha Active Member

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    Hindus believe in Reincarnation - we are reborn - savor God's Gift of Life once more
     
  11. RamaRaksha

    RamaRaksha Active Member

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    beautiful astral plane - sounds like a nice fantasy - like living in Hawaii for a while? That's the going back to the nest that i talk about. There is no ultimate liberation - no running away from life - this is it. Moksha is Enlightenment, Knowledge - the knowledge of God that's all - it is a state of mind, not a place
     
  12. RamaRaksha

    RamaRaksha Active Member

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    Him = Truth - it is not some magic being. Not sure about bonds being broken - to me that's running away from life
     
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  13. RamaRaksha

    RamaRaksha Active Member

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    Your last few words say it all - run away from having to work for a living, face problems, find a nice Sugar Daddy and live the good life in Hawaii for eternity? Only a sick selfish person would hope for that

    Say a guy is involved in a car crash - he dies while his family lies in the hospital fighting for their lives - are we to understand that this guy is living it up in heaven, while his family members are crying for those still lying in the hospital - worrying over them and the hospital bills that will come due and how they will get on in life with the loss of income?

    Or take a grandpa who dies - a few months later his son loses his job - the family is forced out of their home, live in a homeless shelter - while his grandkid goes to bed hungry, the grandpa is eating cake in heaven?

    It is amazing to me that millions seem so happy to drink the kool-aid of heaven and stop asking questions
     
  14. George-ananda

    George-ananda Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
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    I believe in reincarnation too. But I believe there is a time to digest the lessons and enjoy the fruits of this life on the astral plane (heaven-like plane) before the next reincarnation.

    Do you believe in immediate reincarnation? Forever?
     
  15. Corthos

    Corthos Great Old One

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    Interesting. I agree that it's always good to ask questions. =) I have a question or you, though... do you think that if people did keep "asking questions" that they would come to the inevitable conclusion that our souls would persist in reincarnation rather than in a heaven like state, or many of the other afterlife states/narratives that exist in other religions?

    To be honest, it just seems like a different flavor of kool-aid to me. =/
     
    #15 Corthos, Feb 14, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2016
  16. RamaRaksha

    RamaRaksha Active Member

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    We are born, we are alive - that's a fact that we can't ignore - Reincarnation deals with life as we know it - whereas there is zero evidence of any heavens or hells - as i wrote in the opening heaven is the dream of the weak, the lazy - hoping for a Sugar Daddy to keep them in comfort - but if we lived back in the day - diseases killing entire families, people dying in their early 30's, little law and order - you can see why people hoped for a nicer after life and religions were quite happy to tell them what they wanted to hear

    I believe that ancient Hindus saw that and they saw weakness - people running away from life and so they came up with the idea of Reincarnation - choose Life, warts and all - you die, you come right back - no running away - actually when you think about it Reincarnation is a metaphor for leaving the nest. Why did Reincarnation fell out of favor? Because instead of choosing to sit in some nice fantasy land of plenty, safe and secure(the nest) Hinduism was asking us to choose Life, Real Life - where there is pain and suffering - just as the little creature chose to leave the nest even though there was danger, hunger and uncertainity - as we all do one day - we leave the safety and comfort of home(heaven) and make our own way in the world(Reincarnation)

    So, at the end of the day since we have no evidence, all we have are ideas. The idea of a heaven will appeal to the weak, whereas the Strong will choose Reincarnation
     
  17. RamaRaksha

    RamaRaksha Active Member

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    The astral like plane might be life as a lower form of life, that's all. Remember the "lower" forms of life have less stress, less pain and suffering. Sure they suffer physically, but mentally? Like the loss of a loved one? or having our dreams and hopes crushed? Animals don't worry as much over loved ones and they obviously have few dreams or hopes

    But you can go lower - the life of a bug, a tree, or a blade of grass - pain and suffering totally disappears! There is your astral plane! There is your heaven!

    Reincarnation is the Gift of Life - a Gift that God has given us - Human life is the greatest Gift ever - unfortunately since life has been so harsh, we constantly think of running away to some magic land in the sky - it is a fantasy, a myth
     
  18. George-ananda

    George-ananda Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
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    You missed my question: Do you believe in immediate reincarnation? Forever?
     
  19. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein Veteran Member
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    That's a very simplistic and silly idea of Heaven. Maybe you should go read what theologians, artists, Saints and mystics have to say about Heaven in order to gain a more mature understanding of the Christian view of it (especially the Catholic and Orthodox Christian view of it, which tend to be more considered since they've been around longer than the others).
     
  20. SpeaksForTheTrees

    SpeaksForTheTrees Well-Known Member

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    Until some twisted child comes along and torches your world, armed with an aerosol n clipper . Return as a king Crab to find myself sloshing about in the tanks of a trawler for weeks before being cooked alive . No thanks bro once enough for me ..
     
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