[Abrahamics ONLY] Who is a Jew?

[Zardoz]

What is a Jew?

Who gets to decide who is a Jew?

By what standard is this decided?

 

[Tumah]

I can potentially see a lot of different answers here especially since you included all Abrahamics:

Orthodox Judaism- anyone born from a Jewish mother, or has converted through an Orthodox court of law
Conservative Judaism - anyone born from a Jewish mother or has converted through a Conservative or Orthodox court of law
Reform Judaism- anyone born from a Jewish father or mother and had converted through any Jewish court of law
Reconstructionist - anyone who says he is

Christians - non-Jews are the new-Jews

Muslim - whoever says they are

This obviously only includes who is considered a Jew, not who is practicing Judaism.
A non-Jew may decide to practice all the laws of the Shulchan Aruch. So he would be practicing Judaism, but not actually be Jewish.
Conversely, a Jew may not follow any precepts of Judaism whatsoever. He would be a Jew who is not practicing Judaism.

 

[Zardoz]

I can potentially see a lot of different answers here especially since you included all Abrahamics .... This obviously only includes who is considered a Jew, not who is practicing Judaism.:

If I made it more narrow, I would not be able to participate.

What about the standard? How would it be determined if they a practicing Jew?

Allow me to add, for clarification, that the subject of the OP also identifies as a religious Jew; not an atheistic Jew, or as my son aptly says... "Technical Jew".

 

[Tumah]

If I made it more narrow, I would not be able to participate.

Oh, I see what you're saying.

What about the standard? How would it be determined if they are practicing Judaism?

I guess that depends on who is doing the determining. The various sects within Judaism all have different requirements.
The common denominator being that whether they are Jewish beliefs or disbeliefs, they remain Jewish in their nature. Meaning (for instance) whether a sect requires that you believe in G-d or not, they require that you don't believe that Baha'u'llah is a prophet of G-d.

Of course today, I'm sure there's some fringe group somewhere that calls themselves Jewish and does believe so. But that kind of group kind of blurs the lines between all religions, doesn't it.

 

[Jedster]

If I made it more narrow, I would not be able to participate.

What about the standard? How would it be determined if they are practicing Judaism?

Allow me to add, for clarification, that the subject identifies as a religious Jew, not an atheistic Jew, or as my son aptly says... "Technical Jew".

For me being a Jew comes from my own life experiences rather than how any of the different categories of Jew may define me.
I put 'eclectic' as my religion simply because I have been inspired by many cultures/writings that are associated with different groups/religions. I find 'myself' in many places.
I cannot deny that said God/Truth that is talked about in all belief systems is truly universal. No one person or group owns it.
However it was my reading of Jewish scriptures(TNK) that gave me an appetite for looking for 'Truth' and launched me into being a seeker(of Truth).

When I read stories of the Baal Shem Tov, I understood that observance was not as important as I was taught by most of my traditionally-orthodox teachers (super mega..:>))
As far as Jewish rituals are concerned, I have my own shofar and a special havdalah candle, both of which I occasionally use(when I am moved to :>)).

I am occasionally asked to make up a minion(as a Levite) and am often asked(particularly by Christians) to help the learn classical Hebrew.


So... should I be allowed to post in the Jewish DIR?

 

[Godobeyer]

Oh, I see what you're saying.

I guess that depends on who is doing the determining. The various sects within Judaism all have different requirements.
The common denominator being that whether they are Jewish beliefs or disbeliefs, they remain Jewish in their nature. Meaning (for instance) whether a sect requires that you believe in G-d or not, they require that you don't believe that Baha'u'llah is a prophet of G-d.

Of course today, I'm sure there's some fringe group somewhere that calls themselves Jewish and does believe so. But that kind of group kind of blurs the lines between all religions, doesn't it.

I have question about athiest Jew , about the Jews whom birth from Jewish mother,then he/she convert to Islam or to any other religion , they remain Jew ?

What's the Torah tells about this issue ?

What is the commun opinion of Jews on this issue ?

 

[Thana]

What is a Jew?

Who gets to decide who is a Jew?

By what standard is this decided?

Honestly, What it means to be Jewish and if one is Jewish is something I think is determined by the individual.
Do you really need a specific amount of ancestry in your blood or a Rabbi's acknowledgement to validate your beliefs? I, personally, think not.

But I have no authority and even less understanding of the intricacies of Judaism so... yeah.

 

[Tumah]

When I read stories of the Baal Shem Tov, I understood that observance was not as important as I was taught by most of my traditionally-orthodox teachers (super mega..:>))

I guess that's why the Sages said, "we don't rule from a story". There's not a single Hassidic work written by any of the Hassidic masters (including all the Baal Shem tov's students) that point to such an idea.

Although I guess anyone can make up a Baal Shem Tov story to fit a particular agenda.

 

[Tumah]

I have question about athiest Jew , about the Jews whom birth from Jewish mother,then he/she convert to Islam or to any other religion , they remain Jew ?

What's the Torah tells about this issue ?

What is the commun opinion of Jews on this issue ?

Yes. Nothing. Varied.

 

[Jedster]

I guess that's why the Sages said, "we don't rule from a story". There's not a single Hassidic work written by any of the Hassidic masters (including all the Baal Shem tov's students) that point to such an idea.

Although I guess anyone can make up a Baal Shem Tov story to fit a particular agenda.

I am unsure what you are saying here.
Please expand.

 

[Tumah]

I am unsure what you are saying here.
Please expand.

I understood that you are saying that from Baal Shem Tov stories, you concluded that following the observances of Judaism is not an integral part of Judaism. I am saying that we can see from the works of his students, that this is demonstrably false. So you are either misinterpreting the stories you heard, or heard stories that were fabricated by someone other than Hassidic masters (those being the students and their students of the Baa' Shem Tov) to give you this impression .
Its for this reason of misinterpreting stories or their being fabricated that I understood the Sages' saying that "we don't judge from stories".

 

[Jedster]

I understood that you are saying that from Baal Shem Tov stories, you concluded that following the observances of Judaism is not an integral part of Judaism. I am saying that we can see from the works of his students, that this is demonstrably false. So you are either misinterpreting the stories you heard, or heard stories that were fabricated by someone other than Hassidic masters (those being the students and their students of the Baa' Shem Tov) to give you this impression .
Its for this reason of misinterpreting stories or their being fabricated that I understood the Sages' saying that "we don't judge from stories".

What I am saying is that reading stories about him took me to a deeper place within myself which aroused a real curiosity to seek 'truth' . The stories I read certainly said nothing against observance.
My teachers at that time all stressed the necessity to do as much learning as possible. Even in my primary school, we learnt Mishna & even some Gemorroh. In high school, it was several hours a day of learning TNK (as well as secular subjects). None of it did much for me, except perhaps to pass a few exams.
I felt spiritually lacking. The Baal Shem lifted me up.

Your quoting 'the sages' is much the same as the orthodox in most religions do. I would value more your own experience(s), than quoting someone who is long gone.
I made no judgement from said stories, they just opened me up to something deeper inside myself.
Interpretations can and do vary from person to person. Why don't people trust themselves enough to interpret themselves?(rhetoric question)

I value my own experience(s) more than someone else's simply because that's what life gives me. Borrowing others' experiences doesn't do it for me.
I really try to listen to others' wisdom, but in the end must follow my own.

 

[RabbiO]

I can potentially see a lot of different answers here especially since you included all Abrahamics:

Orthodox Judaism- anyone born from a Jewish mother, or has converted through an Orthodox court of law
Conservative Judaism - anyone born from a Jewish mother or has converted through a Conservative or Orthodox court of law
Reform Judaism- anyone born from a Jewish father or mother and had converted through any Jewish court of law
Reconstructionist - anyone who says he is.

Actually, Conservative Judaism will accept as Jews those who have been converted under Reform or Reconstructionist auspices as long as halacha was followed.
While the Secular Humanist movement will accept as a Jew any person who says that he or she is a Jew, the Reconstructionist movement requires all the bells and whistles for conversion. As for the Reform movement, for a child born to a Jewish father and a non-Jewish mother there is only a rebuttable presumption that the child is a Jew.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

What is a Jew?

Who gets to decide who is a Jew?

By what standard is this decided?

It's hard for me to believe that you'll find an unanticipated answer here, which prompts me to wonder: why do you ask?

 

[rosends]

What is a Jew?

Who gets to decide who is a Jew?

By what standard is this decided?

Why do people ask "what" a Jew is? A Jew is a person whose membership is confirmed by comparing it to the standards expected for membership, as established by the members. An American citizen's membership can be established by looking at American law and considering parentage, knowledge or other variables. Jewish "national citizenship" for lack of a better term, is the same. Are there different standards? Yes, so the membership might be in accordance with one set and not another. And what happens is that people who have a form of citizenship only according to the laxest set of standards, then consider themselves "inside" enough to establish "rules" for others which are codified as equally or even more lax.

 

[Tumah]

Actually, Conservative Judaism will accept as Jews those who have been converted under Reform or Reconstructionist auspices as long as halacha was followed.
While the Secular Humanist movement will accept as a Jew any person who says that he or she is a Jew, the Reconstructionist movement requires all the bells and whistles for conversion. As for the Reform movement, for a child born to a Jewish father and a non-Jewish mother there is only a rebuttable presumption that the child is a Jew.

My mistake then.

 

[metis]

What is a Jew?

Who gets to decide who is a Jew?

By what standard is this decided?

"Jew" is an abstract concept that is highly subjective as we see with the above responses. There really is no intrinsically "right" answer because subjective concepts tend to have subjective qualifiers.

Therefore, different Jewish (self-proclaimed) groups and different Jews have different definitions and different qualifiers. At this point, determination is pretty much by the branch of Judaism but also by individuals. As for the latter, anyone can declare themselves to be a "Jew", but they might not find acceptance of that within a particular branch or even by some other fellow Jews.

The exception to this flexibility is the State of Israel, whereas it has to make decisions based on more specific definitions because of the Law of Return plus some other issues, such as marriage. This has been and still is very controversial, and for those who are interested let me refer you to the most recent Moment magazine issue whereas this is discussed.

 

[Tumah]

What I am saying is that reading stories about him took me to a deeper place within myself which aroused a real curiosity to seek 'truth' . The stories I read certainly said nothing against observance.
My teachers at that time all stressed the necessity to do as much learning as possible. Even in my primary school, we learnt Mishna & even some Gemorroh. In high school, it was several hours a day of learning TNK (as well as secular subjects). None of it did much for me, except perhaps to pass a few exams.
I felt spiritually lacking. The Baal Shem lifted me up.

Your quoting 'the sages' is much the same as the orthodox in most religions do. I would value more your own experience(s), than quoting someone who is long gone.
I made no judgement from said stories, they just opened me up to something deeper inside myself.
Interpretations can and do vary from person to person. Why don't people trust themselves enough to interpret themselves?(rhetoric question)

I value my own experience(s) more than someone else's simply because that's what life gives me. Borrowing others' experiences doesn't do it for me.
I really try to listen to others' wisdom, but in the end must follow my own.

So what I'm saying is that it wasn't the Baal Shem Tov who lifted you up, but some probably false stories that did so. Which doesn't make so much difference in terms of your lifting up, but from the standpoint of what the Baal Shem Tov represents, there is a difference.
I have no idea how anyone can learn several hours of TNK. That seems crazy to me.

There's a reason why they're called Sages: they're wise. The dumb sages don't make the cut. Listening to wise people, seems prudent to me.
Their wisdom was born out in this case as well, as you explained that you learned from the Baal Shem Tov that observance was not important. If that was in fact a teaching of the Baal Shem Tov, not only would Hassidus today look very different, but their works would not say what they say and the arguments recorded between the Baal Shem Tov's disciples and the Vilna Gaon would be missing some very key points. So what you extrapolated from the story is not what the Baal Shem Tov was trying to teach, but what you mistakenly understood or what someone misappropriated for your use (meaning they stuck his name to a story that conveyed the ideas you understood even though it never happened). To me this looks like a perfect reason not to make judgments from a story. Not because we are not mentally capable of making judgments from a story, but because we can't verify its authenticity nor whether it was recited in the way it was meant to be, to learn the correct principle. And so I quoted the Sages as it was their wisdom that gave me awareness of this idea.

The argument can be made that other people's wisdom is also what life gives you. And it gives you the potential to see beyond the confines of what your mind would naturally understand.

 

[Jedster]

So what I'm saying is that it wasn't the Baal Shem Tov who lifted you up, but some probably false stories that did so. Which doesn't make so much difference in terms of your lifting up, but from the standpoint of what the Baal Shem Tov represents, there is a difference.
I have no idea how anyone can learn several hours of TNK. That seems crazy to me.

There's a reason why they're called Sages: they're wise. The dumb sages don't make the cut. Listening to wise people, seems prudent to me.
Their wisdom was born out in this case as well, as you explained that you learned from the Baal Shem Tov that observance was not important. If that was in fact a teaching of the Baal Shem Tov, not only would Hassidus today look very different, but their works would not say what they say and the arguments recorded between the Baal Shem Tov's disciples and the Vilna Gaon would be missing some very key points. So what you extrapolated from the story is not what the Baal Shem Tov was trying to teach, but what you mistakenly understood or what someone misappropriated for your use (meaning they stuck his name to a story that conveyed the ideas you understood even though it never happened). To me this looks like a perfect reason not to make judgments from a story. Not because we are not mentally capable of making judgments from a story, but because we can't verify its authenticity nor whether it was recited in the way it was meant to be, to learn the correct principle. And so I quoted the Sages as it was their wisdom that gave me awareness of this idea.

The argument can be made that other people's wisdom is also what life gives you. And it gives you the potential to see beyond the confines of what your mind would naturally understand.

Do Chabad misappropriate stories of the BST.?

This discussion all comes about because I wrote this line in addressing the OP

"When I read stories of the Baal Shem Tov, I understood that observance was not as important as I was taught by most of my traditionally-orthodox teachers (super mega..:>))"
"I could equally have written "I read stories that made me realise to be a better person, I didn't have to be super observant like my teachers demanded".
Maybe I have offended your obviously-more -in-depth-knowledge of the BSTs works. But you should remember that there are many levels of understanding.


"The argument can be made that other people's wisdom is also what life gives you. And it gives you the potential to see beyond the confines of what your mind would naturally understand"
If you are inspired by others' wisdom, then you will make it your own.
No one person owns wisdom.

 

[Tumah]

Do Chabad misappropriate stories of the BST.?

I'm not a big fan of Chabad, so perhaps I'm not the best person to ask.

This discussion all comes about because I wrote this line in addressing the OP

"When I read stories of the Baal Shem Tov, I understood that observance was not as important as I was taught by most of my traditionally-orthodox teachers (super mega..:>))"
"I could equally have written "I read stories that made me realise to be a better person, I didn't have to be super observant like my teachers demanded".
Maybe I have offended your obviously-more -in-depth-knowledge of the BSTs works. But you should remember that there are many levels of understanding.

I have no problem with that, and I don't intend to be offensive. I'm only pointing out that what you gleamed from a story about a certain individual is not in tandem with what that individual taught. I have nothing else that I feel I should add to that. I'm not saying you shouldn't learn what you want from what you want. Life is free to do what you want. I'm only trying to make that one point and nothing more.

"The argument can be made that other people's wisdom is also what life gives you. And it gives you the potential to see beyond the confines of what your mind would naturally understand"
If you are inspired by others' wisdom, then you will make it your own.
No one person owns wisdom.

But its nice to attribute your learning to those that taught it. Give credit where credit is due and all.