Abortion and a Living Soul

[Fool]

I'm quite aware if this.

So if the soul is what gives a human claim to moral consideration.
and electrical activity corresponds to a soul
Anything with cells has a soul, and claim to moral consideration.

yes, everything has a soul. its called hylozoism. but does a single cell have the same quality of life as a group of cells performing as an organ, or as a more complex higher organism? so these things have consciousness through the electro-magnetic field. electro-magnetic is not created. it creates forms, literally information forms the chemical body. the chemical body doesn't form electro-magnetic fields. when this electromagnetic field is removed the chemical structures collapse. this too is call panpsychism


we as humans don't like the idea generally of parasites using us as hosts. fortunately some parasites have formed a symbiotic relationship with their hosts.


but again, i have proven to you what an electrical body is and why it's important. I'm not focused on that and i will not focus on it any further. you asked and got an answer


i'm trying to comprehend how a form without viability has autonomy in the pro-life stance. it is being described in relationship to otherness from its host.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Yes, insects, as distinct from arachnids, don't have lungs. That only means they have other oxygen-in CO2-out systems, just as fish have gills and aquatic molluscs have gills and other techniques.

Which leads me to ask you what breathless animal you have in mind.

There was a similar themed thread awhile back. Thats when I came across this interesting fella...


Scientists Find The First-Ever Animal That Doesn't Need Oxygen to Survive

 

[Valjean]

yes, everything has a soul. its called hylozoism. but does a single cell have the same quality of life as a group of cells performing as an organ, or as a more complex higher organism? so these things have consciousness through the electro-magnetic field. electro-magnetic is not created. it creates forms, literally information forms the chemical body. the chemical body doesn't form electro-magnetic fields. when this electromagnetic field is removed the chemical structures collapse. this too is call panpsychism

The electricity is created by cellular chemistry. It's not part of any underlying field the cells tap into.

but again, i have proven to you what an electrical body is and why it's important. I'm not focused on that and i will not focus on it any further. you asked and got an answer

Neither of us has 'proven' anything. From what I can gather you equate bioelectrical activity with soul, but don't equate soul with any special moral claim.

i'm trying to comprehend how a form without viability has autonomy in the pro-life stance. it is being described in relationship to otherness from its host.

Good point. My take on it is why a non-sentient, non-person, has claim to moral consideration.

 

[Windwalker]

You are right that the line is artificial but I don't know why you want a realised, autonomous human being, why not just a human being. All along the time line after conception we have a human being at different stages of development. Our emotional attachment to a very early pregnancy human being is not a good way to decide whether it is a human being.

I don't really grok with the understanding that cells are a "human being". What makes one a "person", which is what we mean by saying human being, is a lot more than just biological DNA, cells, chemicals, and the like. To view humans as that, to reduce human beings to biology, is something materialistic reductionism does. We are nothing more than just biology and chemistry, in other words. You conflate what a human being is, with homo sapiens, a type of biological animal.

A fetus, is a collection of biologically homo sapiens cells and tissues. It does not have "personhood" yet. I would not call an egg and sperm formation, as a person, a "human" in the sense of they can live autonomously apart from the mother's body. They are a potential human life, that has the DNA of the species homo sapiens.

Our emotional attachment to human babies, should not be taken as a way to decide how to respond to cell tissue in the formation process of becoming a person as they are born into the world. They are not children, and to view them that way, is mistaking emotional attachments with children, with tissues not yet formed into babies.

 

[Fool]

The electricity is created by cellular chemistry. It's not part of any underlying field the cells tap into.
Neither of us has 'proven' anything. From what I can gather you equate bioelectrical activity with soul, but don't equate soul with any special moral claim.
Good point. My take on it is why a non-sentient, non-person, has claim to moral consideration.

i'm with you

 

[firedragon]

doesn't mean a thing. the host provides oxygen to
forming body.

So because the host provided oxygen to the baby, the heart beat doesnt mean a thing? Is that what you mean or do you have something else in your mind?

 

[firedragon]

How is this significant? It's a biological process, like many others.
Biological processes began far earlier than four weeks.

I didnt say its "Significant" or "not significant". I just said there is a heartbeat. If its not significant to you its your prerogative mate.

 

[Fool]

So because the host provided oxygen to the baby, the heart beat doesnt mean a thing? Is that what you mean or do you have something else in your mind?

has to do with breathe not oxygen.


is the parasite self-sustaining?


furthermore jesus said the flesh counts for nothing. so then when does the spirit of god enter into the body? formation of the body or at the breathe? when is it sentient of otherness?


Can fetus sense mother's psychological state? Study suggests yes.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

my query was posted to "believers" whose stance is pro-life and determining what is life. is it a body? is it a breathing body? at what point is it viable and not needing a host.

Until the advent of infant formula, a baby would "need a host" until it was weaned.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

In 4 weeks of pregnancy there is a heartbeat.

And at about 12 weeks, there is a vagina (if the fetus will be born with one), so at that point, the anti-choicers should be able to decide if the fetus is a "person" with rights that actually matter.

 

[firedragon]

has to do with breathe not oxygen.

Okay so breath. What ever it is, your whole post is not relevant to me you see.

Hope you understand.

 

[firedragon]

And at about 12 weeks, there is a vagina (if the fetus will be born with one), so at that point, the anti-choicers should be able to decide if the fetus is a "person" with rights that actually matter.

Your statement is like "black coffee is better than regular Turkish". Its not relevant to my comment.

I dont know why people have so much irrelevant things to say. I support abortion rights for women because of my small experience with rape victims who were pregnant with an unwanted child of an unwanted father.

But the whole morality of it is not within my scope. The topic heading was about abortion and a living soul so I just said that so soon within pregnancy, in a matter of a month of conception the 2 millimetre thing has a heartbeat which I never knew earlier. Thats it.

 

[Fool]

Okay so breath. What ever it is, your whole post is not relevant to me you see.

Hope you understand.

the fetus is not separate. if the hosts heart stops beating; the parasite dies. there is nothing apart from this present condition. it isn't the babies body even more than its the body of a liver, hand, kidney.


it has no existence on it's own.


existence of the son of man, per the tanakh, or OT, or genesis; which ever you prefer doesn't take place until the breath/spirit of god enters the form, the body, the temple.


in this telling, the biblical, the body is created and completed first, then the Spirit of God, or the Breath of Life, enters into the temple/body.


here we see the same example


Divrei Hayamim II - II Chronicles - Chapter 5

or

2 Chronicles 5:13-14

and

2 Chronicles 6


Shekinah Glory - The Abiding Presence of God Explained



the word become flesh


SHEKINAH - JewishEncyclopedia.com


and ezekiel saw it go


https://www.enterthebible.org/Contr...ourcebox.aspx?selected_rid=763&original_id=46

 

[firedragon]

the fetus is not separate. if the hosts heart stops beating; the parasite dies. there is nothing apart from this present condition. it isn't the babies body even more than its the body of a liver, hand, kidney.


it has no existence on it's own.


existence of the son of man, per the tanakh, or OT, or genesis; which ever you prefer doesn't take place until the breath/spirit of god enters the form, the body, the temple.


in this telling, the biblical, the body is created and completed first, then the Spirit of God, or the Breath of Life, enters into the temple/body.


here we see the same example


Divrei Hayamim II - II Chronicles - Chapter 5

or

2 Chronicles 5:13-14

and

2 Chronicles 6


Shekinah Glory - The Abiding Presence of God Explained



the word become flesh


SHEKINAH - JewishEncyclopedia.com


and ezekiel saw it go


https://www.enterthebible.org/Contr...ourcebox.aspx?selected_rid=763&original_id=46

Not relevant to me mate. Thanks though.

 

[Fool]

Not relevant to me mate. Thanks though.

neither was your statement about a heart beating

 

[Tambourine]

Yes there is more to consider than the right of an unborn to live on.
But as I say it is artificial to draw lines of development as places where life or humanity starts. It is nothing short of sophistry.

You are correct, of course - enslaving women is always immoral, no matter what.

 

[firedragon]

neither was your statement about a heart beating

It was relevant to the name of the thread.

Nevertheless, if you are looking for some debate its not with me brother. So I concede.

Have a great day.

 

[Fool]

It was relevant to the name of the thread.

Nevertheless, if you are looking for some debate its not with me brother. So I concede.

Have a great day.

again per the scripture a body needs a heart a spirit doesn't. adam did not become a living soul until the Spirit entered in. it doesn't say adam became a living soul with a heart.


so a heart is irrelevant in this discussion even if you "believe" it is.


you statement is irrelevant and your continuing posts are irrelevant

 

[firedragon]

again per the scripture a body needs a heart a spirit doesn't. adam did not become a living soul until the Spirit entered in. it doesn't say adam became a living soul with a heart.


so a heart is irrelevant in this discussion even if you "believe" it is.


you statement is irrelevant and your continuing posts are irrelevant

Great. Cheers.

 

[blü 2]

There was a similar themed thread awhile back. Thats when I came across this interesting fella...


Scientists Find The First-Ever Animal That Doesn't Need Oxygen to Survive

Fascinating! Thanks for the link.