Abortion and a Living Soul

[LightofTruth]

But this is just religious folklore, no different from the mythology of a hundred other religions. There's no more empirical support for this than there is for the legends of Narnia or Middle Earth.

You're just preaching.

"From dust you are and to dust you shall return"
Some may disagree with the Bible idea that man was formed from the ground but he certainly can't argue with the idea that man goes to the ground and turns to dust when he dies.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Adam was not alive until breath moved in and out of his lungs. A baby that is not born is not alive because no air is moving in and out of it's lungs.

There's actually an animal that dosent breathe and is quite alive and active. Of course humans don't do that, but its cool enough to make it worth mentioning.

 

[Valjean]

In 4 weeks of pregnancy there is a heartbeat.

How is this significant? It's a biological process, like many others.
Biological processes began far earlier than four weeks.

 

[Brian2]

There is no evidence any of this actually happened. It's all folklore.
And what does this have to do with a 'living soul'? Did Adam get a soul when life was breathed into him?
If so, did my cat get a soul when life was breathed into her?

I see humans as a special creation of God above the animals and so with a spiritual soul that is designed for relationship with God and is what makes humans a creation in the image of God.
It is all folklore to you but the answer fits the OP and anyway there is evidence that the Bible is the Word of God.

 

[Valjean]

"From dust you are and to dust you shall return"
Some may disagree with the Bible idea that man was formed from the ground but he certainly can't argue with the idea that man goes to the ground and turns to dust when he dies.

So does a gerbil or an old shoe.

 

[Valjean]

I see humans as a special creation of God above the animals and so with a spiritual soul that is designed for relationship with God and is what makes humans a creation in the image of God.
It is all folklore to you but the answer fits the OP and anyway there is evidence that the Bible is the Word of God.

Thanks. This is the crux of the matter. A God, and a book that's his authoritative word.
I'll need convincing.

 

[Brian2]

Yea, anti-abortionism has very little to do with "souls" and everything with controlling women's bodies.

It is a great privilege and responsibility to carry and bear a child. There is more in it than the notion that men want to control women's bodies because a preborn human is still a human even if in a less developed state. It is no more than rationalising and justifying to come up with an arbitrary point in development before which it is not a human.
I'm not saying that abortion should be banned but am saying that in considering abortion the plain truth of the status of the preborn should be considered and not ignored.
The pragmatic approach to this, which some philosophers use, has led people into wanting to kill born babies because they are disabled in some way. This is justified by setting another arbitrary point of humanity by a developmental stage not having been reached until after birth in most if not all babies.

 

[Brian2]

So to the abortion question, at what magical, artificial line, like above, do we say an early embryonic collection of cells is a realized, autonomous human being? If a woman miscarries, do they gather the remains and hold funeral services, honoring that child? Not typically, though I'm sure you'd find exceptions dotted here or there. But for the most part, no. It's seen as an aborted pregnancy. It's something that happens in nature all the time. So an elective abortion is the same thing, an aborted pregnancy. It's not the killing of a child. People don't see the unborn, literally as in miscarriage, as a full term, born, human child.

You are right that the line is artificial but I don't know why you want a realised, autonomous human being, why not just a human being. All along the time line after conception we have a human being at different stages of development. Our emotional attachment to a very early pregnancy human being is not a good way to decide whether it is a human being.

 

[Valjean]

There's actually an animal that dosen't breathe and is quite alive and active. Of course humans don't do that, but its cool enough to make it worth mentioning.

Yes, there's nothing magical about heartbeat or breathing, they're just two of dozens of processes going on that keep us alive.
And, of course, either may be medically bypassed, in critical conditions, with the patient continuing to live.

 

[Tambourine]

It is a great privilege and responsibility to carry and bear a child. There is more in it than the notion that men want to control women's bodies because a preborn human is still a human even if in a less developed state. It is no more than rationalising and justifying to come up with an arbitrary point in development before which it is not a human.

A fetus in its first trimester is no independent life and looks nothing like a newborn infant. To declare it as fully equal in its rights as a human being to the mother in whose body it grows is nothing short of sophistry.

Besides, even if we grant the ridiculous notion that a bunch of cells growing in a woman's body is morally equivalent to a fully developed human being, we are still facing the situation where a woman is enslaved (that is, being forced by implied violence at somebody else's command) in order to grow another human being.

 

[Brian2]

Adam was not alive until breath moved in and out of his lungs. A baby that is not born is not alive because no air is moving in and out of it's lungs.

Not according to the Bible scriptures.
Then again both Christians and Jews have varieties of views on the subject of when a human becomes a human or becomes alive.
If you want to see the breathe of life purely as air moving in and out of a body that is a rather extreme position and I don't think it actually conforms to the Bible but is not as extreme as some philosophers who draw their arbitrary line for being human at developmental stages after birth.

 

[Brian2]

A fetus in its first trimester is no independent life and looks nothing like a newborn infant. To declare it as fully equal in its rights as a human being to the mother in whose body it grows is nothing short of sophistry.

Could be but my argument is that it is still human and that this should be considered instead of drawing arbitrary lines as to when it may or may not become human. The rights of the woman should also be considered.

Besides, even if we grant the ridiculous notion that a bunch of cells growing in a woman's body is morally equivalent to a fully developed human being, we are still facing the situation where a woman is enslaved (that is, being forced by implied violence at somebody else's command) in order to grow another human being.

Yes there is more to consider than the right of an unborn to live on.
But as I say it is artificial to draw lines of development as places where life or humanity starts. It is nothing short of sophistry.
I guess a lot of this is about sex and that it is for more than for having a cheap thrill.

 

[LightofTruth]

So does a gerbil or an old shoe.

That's why man has no advantage over any other creature.
What happens to the one happens to the other.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

when did adam become a human?


when god formed his body from the dust of the earth?

or

when he breathed the breath of life into the form?

In the Genesis story, I'd argue that Adam became a human when he was cast out of Eden.

when a form, a body, doesn't have the breath of life in it, is it human?

You're using the terms "human" and "a human" in a confusing and possibly misleading way:

- my hair is human.
- my hair is not a human.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yea, anti-abortionism has very little to do with "souls" and everything with controlling women's bodies.

This became especially obvious when I realized how unconcerned "anti-abortionism" is at actually preventing abortions.

It was illuminating for me to realize how uninterested the so-called "pro-life" movement is in measures that would reduce the number of abortions but also improve the choices available to pregnant people. If it doesn't involve pain, cost, or shane for the person with the unwanted pregnancy, they're generally not interested.

 

[Fool]

So a soul is an "electrical body?"
The nervous system, and even individual cells and tissues, have electrical components, but this doesn't strike me as a soul. Earthworms have this same electrical activity, but I'm thinking you believe only humans have souls. If not, stepping on an ant would be the equivalent of shooting your grandma.

If soul is some unique electrical entity or configuration within a human body human, where is it? Medicine has found nothing like this. Electrically, we have nothing a cat doesn't have.

a person, a cat, an earthworm, has an electro-magnetic body

maybe this will strike you

How The Human Body Creates Electromagnetic Fields


Virtually every single process which is keeping you alive can be traced back to an electric field that some component of your body is creating.

 

[Fool]

In 4 weeks of pregnancy there is a heartbeat.

doesn't mean a thing. the host provides oxygen to
forming body.

 

[Fool]

Adam is a fictional character in a mythical story.



A body is human when it has human dna.

obviously you didn't read any of my posts to your comrades.


i'm not worried interested in any of that.


my query was posted to "believers" whose stance is pro-life and determining what is life. is it a body? is it a breathing body? at what point is it viable and not needing a host.


is it autonomous? or something that can be adopted by another to finish out its formation?

 

[blü 2]

There's actually an animal that dosent breathe and is quite alive and active. Of course humans don't do that, but its cool enough to make it worth mentioning.

Yes, insects, as distinct from arachnids, don't have lungs. That only means they have other oxygen-in CO2-out systems, just as fish have gills and aquatic molluscs have gills and other techniques.

Which leads me to ask you what breathless animal you have in mind.

 

[Valjean]

a person, a cat, an earthworm, has an electro-magnetic body

maybe this will strike you

How The Human Body Creates Electromagnetic Fields


Virtually every single process which is keeping you alive can be traced back to an electric field that some component of your body is creating.

I'm quite aware if this.

So if the soul is what gives a human claim to moral consideration.
and electrical activity corresponds to a soul
Anything with cells has a soul, and claim to moral consideration.