I think you've hit upon the crucial crux of the matter. I'm sure that a pole would be just as excruciating as a cross.
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a standing empty cross
- Thread starter cataway
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I think you've hit upon the crucial crux of the matter. I'm sure that a pole would be just as excruciating as a cross.
Teritos
Active Member
The Greek Lexicon Thayer and the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance say that the Greek word also means cross. Are you a Greek scholar or something similar? Do you have any title?
Strong's Greek: 4716. σταυρός (stauros) -- an upright stake, hence a cross (the Rom. instrument of crucifixion) (biblehub.com)
cataway
Well-Known Member
symbolism ?? why is it someone always trying to impalement symbolism ?
#2
You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My Commandments.
An ' upright stake ' does Not have to mean a cross-beamed cross.
Why would Romans need to go to that extra work ( especially without modern tools )
There does Not have to be crossbeams or crossbars to execute numbers of people.
The executional stake was Never meant to be a religious object as Christendom uses it.
If you had a loved one executed that way would you make a small replica of it _________
Would you hang such an object on your wall or wear it as jewelry _______
Scripture is clear that Christians walk by ' faith ' and Not by ' sight ' ( sighted things ) - 2 Corinthians 5:7
cataway
Well-Known Member
being hung from a pole as compared to being hung from a cross . death would come faster being hung on a pole . even faster if the legs are broken .
Teritos
Active Member
The Greek word means stake and cross, read the linked page. To claim that the word does not mean cross is incorrect and ignorant.
Or, even more than 3 at an execution because I find at Luke 23:32 mentions two ' others ' so there could have been 5.
Since Christians walk by ' faith ' and Not by ' sight ' ( sighted objects ) 2 Corinthians 5:7 then, there is absolutely No need for religious-object symbolism.
If your loved one was killed by someone with an ax would you make a small copy of that ax ____
Would you hang a picture of that ax on your wall ________
So, why is it so important to go against 2 Cor. 5:7 and make copies of an executional implement _________
Jesus' executional implement that might never have had a crossbeam.
I find at 1 Corinthians 1:18 in the Greek is Not the word cross but could be translated into English as: stake.
Could something in question be holy because Christians walk by ' faith ' and ' Not by sight ' - 2nd Corinthians 5:7.
I wonder why a person would consider a murder weapon as something holy ______
Why would someone make a religious object out of something on which a loved one was executed_____
If someone stoned your loved one to death would you want any of those stones in your home.
Put a stone on your shelf or give jewelry copies as presents to others ________
Teritos
Active Member
A stone in the Bible has no important role. The cross is the symbol used in the Bible. God has decided that His Son will carry out His salvation on a cross. Without the cross, the salvation would not have taken place. The cross is holy, I wear a cross and it hangs on my wall. It is like the menorah and the anointing oil. The objects in themselves are powerless, but what it represents makes it to a power.
I do wonder how smart or correct it is to have a murder weapon as an object representing worship ______
Or, use a murder weapon as a reminder of a loved one ________
To me it would Not be smart/ intelligent to have copies in view of what murdered a loved one.
Besides, Christians ' walk (live by) faith and Not by sight ' according to 2 Corinthians 5:7.
Yes, I realize you are Not alone in wearing a religious object or hanging a religious object on your wall.
Yes, people know the 'cross' figure does represent the executional murder weapon on which Jesus died.
But because Christians 'walk (live by) 'faith ' and Not by ' sight ' - 2 Corinthians 5:7 then sighted objects connected to religious worship is something outside of Bible teachings.
nPeace
Veteran Member
I second that.
1) JWs don't use that language.
2) That's not the way JWs reason on the matter.
nPeace
Veteran Member
What do you have against JWs for speaking the truth? They did not write the Hebrew and Greek manuscripts you know. The KJV was not writen by God, in case you thought that.
Here, see for yourself...
Acts 5:30 Interlinear: and the God of our fathers did raise up Jesus, whom ye slew, having hanged upon a tree;
Strong's Greek: 3586. ξύλον (xulon) -- wood
I know what you mean, but I find 'stones' did have an important role for Stephen - Acts of the Apostles 7:57-59
nPeace
Veteran Member
The translators were responsible for the use of the word cross. Not the Greek or Hebrew manuscripts.
Paul quotes from the Torah
Galatians 3:13 Interlinear: Christ did redeem us from the curse of the law, having become for us a curse, for it hath been written, 'Cursed is every one who is hanging on a tree,'
Deuteronomy 21:23 Interlinear: his corpse doth not remain on the tree, for thou dost certainly bury him in that day -- for a thing lightly esteemed of God is the hanged one -- and thou dost not defile thy ground which Jehovah thy God is giving to thee -- an inheritance.
Not a JW creation. It's what we find in the manuscripts, and we translate according to what's there.
The cross is a pagan symbol which the church adopted, and then inserted into their Bible translations.
Teritos
Active Member
The Hebrew word from the Torah is "ets" and means according to the Brown-Driver-Briggs dictionary just "wood". The word can therefore also refer to a cross, see Strong's Hebrew: 6086. עֵץ (ets) -- tree, trees, wood (biblehub.com).
And Paul uses the word "xulon" in Greek which means also just "wood" according to the lexicon Thayer. The word can therefore refer to a cross too, see Strong's Greek: 3586. ξύλον (xulon) -- wood (biblehub.com).
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nPeace
Veteran Member
The question is, how can tree and cross mean the same thing?
Whether the Greek word xulon (wood) can mean table, chair, blackboard, stocks, as used at Acts 16:24, that has no relevance. What relevant is what the apostles would have written.
Acts 5:30 Interlinear: and the God of our fathers did raise up Jesus, whom ye slew, having hanged upon a tree;
1 Peter 2:24 Interlinear: who our sins himself did bear in his body, upon the tree, that to the sins having died, to the righteousness we may live; by whose stripes ye were healed,
Galatians 3:13 Interlinear: Christ did redeem us from the curse of the law, having become for us a curse, for it hath been written, 'Cursed is every one who is hanging on a tree,'
Both Peter and Paul used the word tree. They never used cross. Why?
The reason is because the cross was not used. Doesn't it figure?
Also, the way Jesus was put to death was to be fittingly a curse, as stated at Deuteronomy 21:23 - Deuteronomy 21:23 Interlinear: his corpse doth not remain on the tree, for thou dost certainly bury him in that day -- for a thing lightly esteemed of God is the hanged one -- and thou dost not defile thy ground which Jehovah thy God is giving to thee -- an inheritance.
There again we see the use of the word wood / tree.
Strong's Hebrew: 6086. עֵץ (ets) -- tree, trees, wood
So the apostles would have been accurate both in what they said, and what they saw. Do you disagree with that?
Notice...
Strong's Concordance
ets: tree, trees, wood
Original Word: עֵץ
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: ets
Phonetic Spelling: (ates)
Definition: tree, trees, wood
Why is it, only one out of twenty seven translations use cross here?
Galatians 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us. For it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."
The word cross is based on an adopted pagan symbol, which believers tried to incorporated into the Biblical text, but it was never used or suggested in any Greek manuscript.
nPeace
Veteran Member
It's a clear indication of pagan worship, which many adopt without giving thought to its significance - in association with false worship.
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Instead of holding up an index finger of the right hand, and crossing it with the index finger of the right hand, in order to fend off a vampire, the new idea is to hold up just one finger (symbolizing the post that Jesus was nailed to). But, holding up a single finger to a vampire might infuriate him.
Of course, if the vampire is Jewish, you'd have to make the star of David out of your fingers, and, by the time you figure out how, he'd devour your blood.
Jesus Christ May Not Have Died on Cross
ABC News says that there is scant evidence that Jesus died on a cross.
Crucifixion - Wikipedia
Link says: "Senaca the Younger wrote: "I see crosses there, not just of one kind, but made in many different ways: some have their victims with head down to the ground; some impale their private parts; others stretch out their arms on the gibbet."
"In some cases, the condemned was forced to carry the crossbeam to the place of execution.[16] A whole cross would weigh well over 135 kg (300 lb), but the crossbeam would not be as burdensome, weighing around 45 kg (100 lb)" (Frankly, if I am going to die a horrible death anyway, there is nothing that could compel me to carry my own instrument of destruction).
"The Roman historian, Tacitus, records that the city of Roime had a specific place for carrying out executions, situated outside the Esquiline Gate, and had a specific area reserved for the executions of slaves by crucifixion." ...."may have been attached by rope." Josephus mentioned nails and other sharp materials. "Usually the person was stripped naked." Seneca the Younger said that some victims suffered a stick forced upwards through their groin.
"Cicero: "a most cruel and disgusting punishment." Often the legs were broken with an iorn club (aclled crurifragium).
Josephus said that Roman soldiers amused themselves by nailing them in different ways.
Irenaeus (circa 130 AD to 202AD) described the cross of Jesus as an upright and a transverse beam.
The New Testament describes the cross as the letter T.
Justin Martyr says that the cross of Jesus is like a roasting pit for Passover lamb. (But, did the Romans worship Passover?)
The ancient body of Jehohanan (son of Hagakol) was found with a nail through the heel bone. It is the only remain that was identified as a crucifixion. A piece of acacia wood held his foot to the cross (so he couldn't pull his foot loose).
Instead of holding up an index finger of the right hand, and crossing it with the index finger of the right hand, in order to fend off a vampire, the new idea is to hold up just one finger (symbolizing the post that Jesus was nailed to). But, holding up a single finger to a vampire might infuriate him.
Of course, if the vampire is Jewish, you'd have to make the star of David out of your fingers, and, by the time you figure out how, he'd devour your blood.
Jesus Christ May Not Have Died on Cross
ABC News says that there is scant evidence that Jesus died on a cross.
Crucifixion - Wikipedia
Link says: "Senaca the Younger wrote: "I see crosses there, not just of one kind, but made in many different ways: some have their victims with head down to the ground; some impale their private parts; others stretch out their arms on the gibbet."
"In some cases, the condemned was forced to carry the crossbeam to the place of execution.[16] A whole cross would weigh well over 135 kg (300 lb), but the crossbeam would not be as burdensome, weighing around 45 kg (100 lb)" (Frankly, if I am going to die a horrible death anyway, there is nothing that could compel me to carry my own instrument of destruction).
"The Roman historian, Tacitus, records that the city of Roime had a specific place for carrying out executions, situated outside the Esquiline Gate, and had a specific area reserved for the executions of slaves by crucifixion." ...."may have been attached by rope." Josephus mentioned nails and other sharp materials. "Usually the person was stripped naked." Seneca the Younger said that some victims suffered a stick forced upwards through their groin.
"Cicero: "a most cruel and disgusting punishment." Often the legs were broken with an iorn club (aclled crurifragium).
Josephus said that Roman soldiers amused themselves by nailing them in different ways.
Irenaeus (circa 130 AD to 202AD) described the cross of Jesus as an upright and a transverse beam.
The New Testament describes the cross as the letter T.
Justin Martyr says that the cross of Jesus is like a roasting pit for Passover lamb. (But, did the Romans worship Passover?)
The ancient body of Jehohanan (son of Hagakol) was found with a nail through the heel bone. It is the only remain that was identified as a crucifixion. A piece of acacia wood held his foot to the cross (so he couldn't pull his foot loose).
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