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a standing empty cross

Brian2

Veteran Member
What do you have against JWs for speaking the truth? They did not write the Hebrew and Greek manuscripts you know. The KJV was not writen by God, in case you thought that.
Here, see for yourself...
Acts 5:30 Interlinear: and the God of our fathers did raise up Jesus, whom ye slew, having hanged upon a tree;
Strong's Greek: 3586. ξύλον (xulon) -- wood

What does Acts 5:30 have to do with it. Maybe Christians should have a tree as a symbol.
Trees do have branches.
The evidence from scripture and from historians suggests a cross. But of course you have to believe what the WT tells you to even if the evidence points to a cross. 100% of JWs have to believe that Jesus died on a stake and if they believed the scriptural and historical evidence and made that known to their fellow JWs then they may be in danger of being disfellowshipped. That's sad and demonstrates the control the WT has over JWs, who also use the false information and belief to attack Christendom.
 

Teritos

Active Member
What does Acts 5:30 have to do with it. Maybe Christians should have a tree as a symbol.
The Greek word also means "wood", which would be the correct translation in Acts 5:30 and not "tree" considering the context. The word wood in itself can mean any shape of wood, but the Bible clearly tells us that it is a shape of a cross.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
That's obvious. To save you from your own paganism. The religion of 'Christendom' (which is really pagan Satan worship) must be undermined at every point so that the world may then come to know the obvious truth of the Watchtower Society's teachings. Which alone possesses true Christianity. Because of course it does.
The 'religious truth' of the Watchtower and Bible Tract Society can be found at www.jw.org
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
What does Acts 5:30 have to do with it. Maybe Christians should have a tree as a symbol.
Trees do have branches.
The evidence from scripture and from historians suggests a cross. But of course you have to believe what the WT tells you to even if the evidence points to a cross. 100% of JWs have to believe that Jesus died on a stake and if they believed the scriptural and historical evidence and made that known to their fellow JWs then they may be in danger of being disfellowshipped. That's sad and demonstrates the control the WT has over JWs, who also use the false information and belief to attack Christendom.
Your reasoning is appalling - a tree has branches. Wow!, and the constant targeting of the JWs is tiring, as well as the eronious misrepresentation about what JWs do is utterly ridiculous.

We are not discussing JWs here we are discussing the instrument which Jesus is supposed to have died on.
There is no evidence supporting your belief.
All the evidence we have, is stated in here, Crucifixion - Wikipedia regarding the word usage, and we have the earliest from the Bible writers who lived closer to that period. None of them mention cross.

There are many persons besides JWs who give this same information, so your hangups, jealousy, hatred, or whatever you have for JWs is noted, but it would be appreciated if you stick to the topic at hand, and leave aside your deep seated hatred for the members of the GB. What did they do to you that you are so bent on misrepresenting them?

Whatever it is, they are not the topic of this thread. You have an opportunity to show by use of the Bible that they are wrong, in the thread, I opened personally for you. right now we are discussing the cross.

Bishops and theologians disagree with you. This is not a JWs issue.

Instrument of Jesus' crucifixion
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
stauros.jpg


Jesus Christ May Not Have Died on Cross
No evidence in Ancient sources backs up defining symbol of Christianity
stauros1.jpg


Let's try to deal with the facts, and not your opinions... and please try to keep your personal feeling out of the debate.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
But then there is the fact the Romans did crucify with a cross beam, and they did get people to carry the crossbeam. Which fits the gospel narratives.
I find at Matthew 27:32; Mark 15:21; Luke 23:26; John 19:17 No mention of carrying 'part' of which was used for Jesus' execution.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
The Greek word, which in many Bibles which is translated into “cross,” is the Greek word “stauros” which means, “an upright stake, esp. a pointed one, a cross.” The word itself, therefore, can be used for either shape piece of wood. The details of the narrative, however, give us a clearer picture. If a stake were used, instead of a cross, then Jesus’ hands would have been placed above His head with a nail driven through His wrists. Since the wrists would most likely overlap, only one nail would be driven through both wrists. However, John 20:25 says,
“The other disciples therefore said unto him, ‘We have seen the Lord. But he said to them, except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.'”
Notice the use of the word nails (plural) in reference to his hands (plural). It makes far more sense to say that Jesus was crucified on a cross with outstretched hands and one nail in each hand placed above each other on a stake. That is why it says ”…in his hands the print of the nails…”
Therefore, it is most logical to state that Jesus died on a cross with outstretched arms. This also corresponds with relevant archeological evidence. The remains of a crucified Jewish man named Yehohanon, who was executed in the late 20’s A.D. (not long before Jesus) under the administration of Pontius Pilate was unearthed in a Judean tomb. Forensic analysis of the remains indicates that he was crucified with his arms stretched apart. A nail was found still embedded in his heel bone. All these details accord with the description of the similar execution of Jesus under Pilate, and point toward a cross shape rather than a single, upright beam or stake.

The testimony of the early Christians also points unanimously to a cross shape. A popular Christian document of the early 100s A.D. compares the cross to the Greek letter “tau” which looks very much like our “t,” and also speaks of the cross prefigured in Moses stretching out his arms over the battlefield of the armies of Israel. Justin Martyr (114-165 AD), who was from Samaria which is between Galilee and Judea where most of Jesus’ ministry took place, wrote that the Passover lamb prefigured not only Jesus but also the cross, because:
“The lamb, which is roasted, is roasted and dressed up in the form of the cross. For one spit is transfixed right through from the lower parts up to the head, and one across the back, to which are attached the legs of the lamb”
Irenaeus also describes the cross’s shape as having points both up and down and to each side, as well as mentioning a post on which the nailed person rests. The “Palatine Graphito” (a late second-century piece of Roman graffiti mocking a Christian for worshiping the crucified Jesus) also pictures Jesus’ execution as being on a cross. Even some of the earliest New Testament manuscripts we have found (P45, P66, and P75) abbreviate the Greek word “Stauros” by omitting the “au” in the middle and putting the Greek letters for “t” and “r” on top of one another, causing them to form a “t” shape with a circle over it, or a graphic of a figure crucified on a cross. All of this together constitutes rather broad testimony that the earliest Christians believed that Jesus died with His arms stretched out on a cross. They not only represent early testimony but also lived in the world that Jesus lived in and would know better if crucifixions were not carried out in that manner. Did Jesus die on a stake or a cross? Jehovah's Witnesses and the cross (carm.org)
First of all, let me point out that reasoning does not establish a fact. The wrist is considered part of the hand.
So Jesus showing the disciples his hands does not mean he showed them his palms.
None of what you said here are facts. I showed you the facts earlier - both in the usage of the terms, and the period of time of their usage.
The disciples used their terms in the first century, before the use of the Latin word crux.

So what are you going by, the Bible, or what was later used?
 

cataway

Well-Known Member
No Cataway.
The figure shown is depicting an execution of a man tied up to a tree trunk. Look at the hacked off branches on it, accurately portrayed. That was an execution which took place away from any regular execution site. So they hacked a standing tree back for use.

Can you see that?
Acts 5:30

“The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.” KJV
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Acts 5:30

“The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.” KJV
Cataway......
I don't even think that Jesus died that day so it's not much good quoting acts to me, written by a bloke who never even met Jesus, let alone watched his execution .
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
What does Acts 5:30 have to do with it. Maybe Christians should have a tree as a symbol.
Trees do have branches.
The evidence from scripture and from historians suggests a cross. But of course you have to believe what the WT tells you to even if the evidence points to a cross. 100% of JWs have to believe that Jesus died on a stake and if they believed the scriptural and historical evidence and made that known to their fellow JWs then they may be in danger of being disfellowshipped. That's sad and demonstrates the control the WT has over JWs, who also use the false information and belief to attack Christendom.
Why do Christians need a symbol? Did jesus have one? Did his apostles have one? Did Jesus tell you to have one?
 

Teritos

Active Member
Acts 5:30

“The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.” KJV
The Greek word also means "wood", which would be the correct translation in Acts of the Apostles 5:30 and not "tree" considering the context. The word wood in itself can mean any shape of wood, but the Bible clearly tells us that it is a shape of a cross.
 

cataway

Well-Known Member
actually the point of the thread is there would be no standing cross or for that nether would there be a standing post remaining . why ? because ya could not get a man off the thing with out pulling it up or cutting it down
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
aside from posts made.....I say.....

He was nailed

it was to induce shock

Nails were expensive.....not used in routine execution
but He was nailed to speed His demise

the authorities did not want Him to hang the usual three days.....dying from thirst and exposure

that would allow His following to accumulate
 

Teritos

Active Member
Acts 5:30

“The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.” KJV
The NASB, which is supposed to be the most accurate English Bible, writes in Acts 5:30:
The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you put to death by hanging Him on a cross(literally: wood)
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Menorah and anointing oil are for example jewish symbols.
What does that have to do with Christians and what Jesus told his followers to do? Or are you just saying that we don't have to care what Jesus said, just invent our own traditions?
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
The NASB, which is supposed to be the most accurate English Bible, writes in Acts 5:30:
The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you put to death by hanging Him on a cross(literally: wood)
Yes. A tree is wood. Hence why the disciples all recorded "tree".
 
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