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a standing empty cross

nPeace

Veteran Member
The Hebrew word from the Torah is "ets" and means according to the Brown-Driver-Briggs dictionary just "wood". The word can therefore also refer to a cross, see Strong's Hebrew: 6086. עֵץ (ets) -- tree, trees, wood (biblehub.com).

And Paul uses the word "xulon" in Greek which means also just "wood" according to the lexicon Thayer. The word can therefore refer to a cross too, see Strong's Greek: 3586. ξύλον (xulon) -- wood (biblehub.com).
You can also research the history to get the facts.

Crucifixion is a method of punishment or capital punishment in which the victim is tied or nailed to a large wooden beam and left to hang perhaps for several days, until eventual death from exhaustion and asphyxiation.

Terminology
Ancient Greek has two verbs for crucify: ana-stauro (ἀνασταυρόω), from stauros (which in today's Greek only means "cross" but which in antiquity was used of any kind of wooden pole, pointed or blunt, bare or with attachments) and apo-tumpanizo (ἀποτυμπανίζω) "crucify on a plank", together with anaskolopizo (ἀνασκολοπίζω "impale"). In earlier pre-Roman Greek texts anastauro usually means "impale"


The English term cross derives from the Latin word crux, which classically referred to a tree or any construction of wood used to hang criminals as a form of execution. The term later came to refer specifically to a cross.

[History tells us cross was a later rendering use in modern Greek derived from Latin to describe death by crucifixion on a tree.]

Was there a crossbar attached? Perhaps in later uses, ther was, according to Josephus.
At times the gibbet was only one vertical stake, called in Latin crux simplex. This was the simplest available construction for torturing and killing the condemned. Frequently, however, there was a cross-piece attached either at the top to give the shape of a T (crux commissa) or just below the top, as in the form most familiar in Christian symbolism (crux immissa).

Archaeological evidence
Although the ancient historians Josephus and Appian refer to the crucifixion of thousands of Jews by the Romans, there is only a single archaeological discovery of a crucified body of a Jew dating back to the Roman Empire around the time of Jesus.
This was discovered at Givat HaMivtar, Jerusalem in 1968.

Read more.
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
I have wondered how a heavy wooden crosspiece was attached to the upright piece so that it would not fall. Did they actually nail the two pieces together? And was this done before the criminal was nailed to it or was it placed in the ground first and the person somehow lifted up to be attached. Some of these details are not clear.
 

Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
And, by the way, why do you think it matters?
That's obvious. To save you from your own paganism. The religion of 'Christendom' (which is really pagan Satan worship) must be undermined at every point so that the world may then come to know the obvious truth of the Watchtower Society's teachings. Which alone possesses true Christianity. Because of course it does.
 

cataway

Well-Known Member
I think you've hit upon the crucial crux of the matter. I'm sure that a pole would be just as excruciating as a cross.
perhaps it depends on the hideous nature of the roman solders, they were cruel for no other reason than they could be . the torcher Jesus went through , my self i cant imagine. its not just that he was hung up ,he was also beaten, wiped ,not allowed to sleep .
 

Teritos

Active Member
The question is, how can tree and cross mean the same thing?
Whether the Greek word xulon (wood) can mean table, chair, blackboard, stocks, as used at Acts 16:24, that has no relevance. What relevant is what the apostles would have written.
Acts 5:30 Interlinear: and the God of our fathers did raise up Jesus, whom ye slew, having hanged upon a tree;
1 Peter 2:24 Interlinear: who our sins himself did bear in his body, upon the tree, that to the sins having died, to the righteousness we may live; by whose stripes ye were healed,
Galatians 3:13 Interlinear: Christ did redeem us from the curse of the law, having become for us a curse, for it hath been written, 'Cursed is every one who is hanging on a tree,'

Both Peter and Paul used the word tree. They never used cross. Why?

The reason is because the cross was not used. Doesn't it figure?
Also, the way Jesus was put to death was to be fittingly a curse, as stated at Deuteronomy 21:23 - Deuteronomy 21:23 Interlinear: his corpse doth not remain on the tree, for thou dost certainly bury him in that day -- for a thing lightly esteemed of God is the hanged one -- and thou dost not defile thy ground which Jehovah thy God is giving to thee -- an inheritance.

There again we see the use of the word wood / tree.
Strong's Hebrew: 6086. עֵץ (ets) -- tree, trees, wood
So the apostles would have been accurate both in what they said, and what they saw. Do you disagree with that?

Notice...
Strong's Concordance
ets: tree, trees, wood
Original Word: עֵץ
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: ets
Phonetic Spelling: (ates)
Definition: tree, trees, wood

Why is it, only one out of twenty seven translations use cross here?
Galatians 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us. For it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."
The word cross is based on an adopted pagan symbol, which believers tried to incorporated into the Biblical text, but it was never used or suggested in any Greek manuscript.
The Greek word, which in many Bibles which is translated into “cross,” is the Greek word “stauros” which means, “an upright stake, esp. a pointed one, a cross.” The word itself, therefore, can be used for either shape piece of wood. The details of the narrative, however, give us a clearer picture. If a stake were used, instead of a cross, then Jesus’ hands would have been placed above His head with a nail driven through His wrists. Since the wrists would most likely overlap, only one nail would be driven through both wrists. However, John 20:25 says,
“The other disciples therefore said unto him, ‘We have seen the Lord. But he said to them, except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.'”
Notice the use of the word nails (plural) in reference to his hands (plural). It makes far more sense to say that Jesus was crucified on a cross with outstretched hands and one nail in each hand placed above each other on a stake. That is why it says ”…in his hands the print of the nails…”
Therefore, it is most logical to state that Jesus died on a cross with outstretched arms. This also corresponds with relevant archeological evidence. The remains of a crucified Jewish man named Yehohanon, who was executed in the late 20’s A.D. (not long before Jesus) under the administration of Pontius Pilate was unearthed in a Judean tomb. Forensic analysis of the remains indicates that he was crucified with his arms stretched apart. A nail was found still embedded in his heel bone. All these details accord with the description of the similar execution of Jesus under Pilate, and point toward a cross shape rather than a single, upright beam or stake.

The testimony of the early Christians also points unanimously to a cross shape. A popular Christian document of the early 100s A.D. compares the cross to the Greek letter “tau” which looks very much like our “t,” and also speaks of the cross prefigured in Moses stretching out his arms over the battlefield of the armies of Israel. Justin Martyr (114-165 AD), who was from Samaria which is between Galilee and Judea where most of Jesus’ ministry took place, wrote that the Passover lamb prefigured not only Jesus but also the cross, because:
“The lamb, which is roasted, is roasted and dressed up in the form of the cross. For one spit is transfixed right through from the lower parts up to the head, and one across the back, to which are attached the legs of the lamb”
Irenaeus also describes the cross’s shape as having points both up and down and to each side, as well as mentioning a post on which the nailed person rests. The “Palatine Graphito” (a late second-century piece of Roman graffiti mocking a Christian for worshiping the crucified Jesus) also pictures Jesus’ execution as being on a cross. Even some of the earliest New Testament manuscripts we have found (P45, P66, and P75) abbreviate the Greek word “Stauros” by omitting the “au” in the middle and putting the Greek letters for “t” and “r” on top of one another, causing them to form a “t” shape with a circle over it, or a graphic of a figure crucified on a cross. All of this together constitutes rather broad testimony that the earliest Christians believed that Jesus died with His arms stretched out on a cross. They not only represent early testimony but also lived in the world that Jesus lived in and would know better if crucifixions were not carried out in that manner. Did Jesus die on a stake or a cross? Jehovah's Witnesses and the cross (carm.org)
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Through my own exhaustive research, I’ve come to believe that all religious crosses represent, and originated from, fertility rites... And most respected encyclopedias will tell you this, too. Beginning with the ankh.

And how is fertility realized, between humans? When a man’s phallus enters a woman.
Now just look at the cross’ symbol: the upright is entering the horizontal. It represents sex...

And some in Christendom get so emotional about it.....kissing it, adoring it, etc.
Now they believe this is the object used to kill the Savior!
The Romans killed Him...so really, the instrument of Jesus’ death, is something a pagan devised! Is that worthy of honor from a Christian?

I had a friend in Ohio, back in ‘83.... he was killed by a drunk driver. I’m not about to make a replica of the vehicle, and idolize it!
Even tho the car doesn’t represent sex, I wouldn’t kiss it, either.

Amazing how easily so many have been misled, to the delight of Satan! What a mastermind of deception.

.
 
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Teritos

Active Member
Through my own exhaustive research, I’ve come to believe that all religious crosses represent, and originated from, fertility rites... Any worthy encyclopedia will tell you this. Beginning with the ankh.

And how is fertility realized, between humans? When a man’s phallus enters a woman.
Now just look at the cross’ symbol: the upright is entering the horizontal. It represents sex,

And some in Christendom get so emotional about it.....kissing it, adoring it, etc.
Now they believe this is the object used to kill the Savior!
The Romans killed Him...so really, the cross (they think) is something a pagan devised! Is that worthy of honor from a Christian?

I had a friend in Ohio, back in ‘83.... he was killed by a drunk driver. I’m not about to make a replica of the vehicle, and idolize it!
Even tho the car doesn’t represent sex, I wouldn’t kiss it, either.

Amazing how easily so many have been fooled, to the delight of Satan! What a mastermind of deception.

.
The cross is not pagan, it was also used by pagans, but to call it pagan is wrong. Monotheism was also used in paganism, even today, but to call it pagan is not right.
Your comparison with your friend does not fit, the cross is significant for Christians because it made salvation possible, without the cross Jesus could not have died for the sins of the people. And without the ark mankind would have been wiped out in the flood. God apparently likes to use wood to save. The objects themselves are worthless, but what these objects represent that makes them so special; the cross represents the grace and salvation of God.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
The cross is not pagan, it was also used by pagans, but to call it pagan is wrong. Monotheism was also used in paganism, even today, but to call it pagan is not right.
Your comparison with your friend does not fit, the cross is significant for Christians because it made salvation possible, without the cross Jesus could not have died for the sins of the people. And without the ark mankind would have been wiped out in the flood. God apparently likes to use wood to save. But the objects themselves are worthless, but what these objects represent that makes them so special, the cross represents the grace and salvation of God.
“Without the cross Jesus could not have died...”?
Jesus could’ve been killed by a sword. Anything.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
To me it matters because the Greek word translated by KJV English is Not the English word from Greek for cross.
It is from the word ' crux ', and originally just an upright pole.
The Greek word 'stauros' in classical Greek was merely an upright stake or pale.
In Scripture the word ' xylon ' which was also used and is timber as in a piece of wood, log, post or beam.....
Besides who would cherish a gun, knife, etc. if it was used to execute a loved one ________
Who would make a religious object out of a gun, knife, electric chair, etc. ____________
But then there is the fact the Romans did crucify with a cross beam, and they did get people to carry the crossbeam. Which fits the gospel narratives.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
such a radicles picture . perhaps we have all see them ,sometimes one cross sometimes three .yeah well, BTW he did not die on a cross but on a single freestanding timber . there is no way that the implement of public disgrace would of remained standing to get him off the thing , it would of had to be laid down to get him off from it. **mod edit**
The Romans used crosses.
Or have you any evidence that they used posts at regular execution sites?

The whole idea of the cross was that the convict would keep themself alive for a very long time.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
symbolism ?? why is it someone always trying to impalement symbolism ?
#2
You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My Commandments.

Really?! Are you saying that the image of a cross is idolatry? Are you saying that some people of Christendom worship a cross? The death of Jesus and His resurrection are the centre of Christianity and we boast in the cross of Jesus, but we do not worship it.
Gel 6:14 (NWT) But may I never boast, except in the torture stake of our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom the world has been put to death with regard to me and I with regard to the world.
And the Christian cross has nothing to do with the ancient God Tammuz, just as Christmas has nothing to do with any ancient festivals for Sol at the same time of year.
 

Teritos

Active Member
symbolism ?? why is it someone always trying to impalement symbolism ?
#2
You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My Commandments.
Did you know that in the holy temple of God that was built by Solomon there were many carved images? Images of animals, plants and heavenly beings like angels?
So that you understand: Christians do not worship images, they use those images to symbolize the meaning behind them.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Through my own exhaustive research, I’ve come to believe that all religious crosses represent, and originated from, fertility rites... And most respected encyclopedias will tell you this, too. Beginning with the ankh.

And how is fertility realized, between humans? When a man’s phallus enters a woman.
Now just look at the cross’ symbol: the upright is entering the horizontal. It represents sex...

And some in Christendom get so emotional about it.....kissing it, adoring it, etc.
Now they believe this is the object used to kill the Savior!
The Romans killed Him...so really, the instrument of Jesus’ death, is something a pagan devised! Is that worthy of honor from a Christian?

I had a friend in Ohio, back in ‘83.... he was killed by a drunk driver. I’m not about to make a replica of the vehicle, and idolize it!
Even tho the car doesn’t represent sex, I wouldn’t kiss it, either.

Amazing how easily so many have been misled, to the delight of Satan! What a mastermind of deception.

.

The Christian use of the cross however originated with the crucifixion of Jesus even if the WT wants to demonise the Christian religion.
I guess all JWs have to believe the rubbish that the Watchtower tells them to believe.
 

cataway

Well-Known Member
The Romans used crosses.
Or have you any evidence that they used posts at regular execution sites?

The whole idea of the cross was that the convict would keep themself alive for a very long time.
upload_2021-4-5_7-10-19.png
 

cataway

Well-Known Member
Really?! Are you saying that the image of a cross is idolatry? Are you saying that some people of Christendom worship a cross? The death of Jesus and His resurrection are the centre of Christianity and we boast in the cross of Jesus, but we do not worship it.
Gel 6:14 (NWT) But may I never boast, except in the torture stake of our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom the world has been put to death with regard to me and I with regard to the world.
And the Christian cross has nothing to do with the ancient God Tammuz, just as Christmas has nothing to do with any ancient festivals for Sol at the same time of year.
i am actually surprised you dont see it as idolatry
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Or, even more than 3 at an execution because I find at Luke 23:32 mentions two ' others ' so there could have been 5.
Since Christians walk by ' faith ' and Not by ' sight ' ( sighted objects ) 2 Corinthians 5:7 then, there is absolutely No need for religious-object symbolism.
If your loved one was killed by someone with an ax would you make a small copy of that ax ____
Would you hang a picture of that ax on your wall ________
So, why is it so important to go against 2 Cor. 5:7 and make copies of an executional implement _________
Jesus' executional implement that might never have had a crossbeam.

Who is going against 2Cor 5:7 and how?
Don't tell me how I should remember my loved ones or Jesus death, or show to the world that I am a Christian.
I know you are used to being told by the Watchtower what to believe and how you should feel about various things and what is right and wrong.
 

cataway

Well-Known Member
Did you know that in the holy temple of God that was built by Solomon there were many carved images? Images of animals, plants and heavenly beings like angels?
So that you understand: Christians do not worship images, they use those images to symbolize the meaning behind them.
7 So the people came to Moses and said: “We have sinned by speaking against Jehovah and against you. Intercede with Jehovah so that he may remove the serpents from us.” And Moses interceded on behalf of the people. 8 Then Jehovah said to Moses: “Make a replica of a poisonous snake and put it on a pole. Then when anyone has been bitten, he will have to look at it in order to keep alive.” 9 Moses at once made a serpent of copper and put it on the pole, and whenever a serpent had bitten a man and he looked at the copper serpent, he survived.

what ever happened to that snake on the pole ? i know . just wondering if you do ?
 

Teritos

Active Member
7 So the people came to Moses and said: “We have sinned by speaking against Jehovah and against you. Intercede with Jehovah so that he may remove the serpents from us.” And Moses interceded on behalf of the people. 8 Then Jehovah said to Moses: “Make a replica of a poisonous snake and put it on a pole. Then when anyone has been bitten, he will have to look at it in order to keep alive.” 9 Moses at once made a serpent of copper and put it on the pole, and whenever a serpent had bitten a man and he looked at the copper serpent, he survived.

what ever happened to that snake on the pole ? i know . just wondering if you do ?
28-serpent.gif
 
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