A Spiritual Quest

[sunsplash]

My Journey, Part 1 -

Like many, I don't subscribe to any particular "religion" at the moment. I was born into a "Christian" family, baptized Presbyterian as a baby, never went to church and was only taught the basics - God exists, Jesus is His son, if you don't believe then you're damned for eternity.

As I got older I started to question what I was taught, trying to find the reasons behind why what I was told is right and everything else is wrong. I immerced myself in Religious Studies classes in college hoping to learn about all facets of all religions in a secret attempt to solve my own personal questions. While I didn't find many answers for myself, I did gain an undying respect for all faiths. I'm now married, have a beautiful daughter, and am faced with getting her baptized, which has stirred the pot in my soul again to seek a profound acceptance of "something" so that I can decide how to raise her and be able to offer an explanation for my own beliefs - something no one was ever able to give me.

So now I'm here. I believe in the God of Abraham, the God of Israel, the God of the Bible...I believe in GOD. This has never been a question in my heart. My issues start with Jesus. I had believed in Him as the Son of God and as God out of fear. I still have fear in questioning him <-- notice my little "H" now. Something about him doesn't sit well with me. I don't understand how he is supposed to be both man and God, a separation and a union. I don't doubt his existence, I question whether or not he is supposed to be worshipped. If he is God, than why can't we pray and worship God directly...what is the need for this medium called Christ?

If Jesus is the Son of God and is to be revered, did he mean for Christianity to be created, a separation of Judaism which he adhered to as a man - or did he intend for Judaism to evolve into a new dynamic but stay true to itself always? Would he be proud of what Christianity is today? With all of the manipulation caused by early churches - what became Catholicism - how is it even fathomable that modern Christianity as a whole is correct or true to what God wanted, if he wanted this at all?

I believe in free will, that God allows for us to make our own decisions and mistakes. Isn't it possible that Christianity is a mistake? There was so much human involvement in its creation...involvement and manipulation by the race of man who is flawed by nature, debate over what should or should not be included in the Bible, debate of how Jesus should be defined and if he should be worshipped. These are historical and documented facts that I can't ignore and instead, choose to believe that various groups of men just happened to get it right. And that's IF Jesus is divine anyway, which brings me right back around to square one.

So this is where I am:

• I believe wholeheartedly in God, the God of the Israelites and the God in the Bible.
• I question Jesus' divinity
• I'm not anti-Catholic but I do not agree with their concept of saints, the virgin Mary, Mary as anyone of superiority, confession, etc.
• I believe evolution and creationism/science and God go hand-in-hand
• I believe in the OT, that it is based on fact but that not everything can be read literally
• I do not take rabbinical law as God's Law
• I'm seeking God's Truth, not man's interpretation of events that were decided to be true based on a general concensus for the benefit of their "church."

These are the questions I am currently asking myself:

• If Jesus is really messiah, is what Christianity is today what he intended the following to be, or was it supposed to be more of a reform of Judaism at that time, and not the complete separation that it is today?
• Can faith and truth/fact coexist in a single religion?
• Is religion necessary or is spirituality enough?
• Where do I fit in?

Most currently comtemplating:

• What/who is evil/Satan?
• Non-dualism

 

[Onkara]

Hi Sunsplash
Comprehensive post, I feel I know you a lot better

Here is my opinion, largely based on experience rather than any spritual teaching...

Baptize/Christian your daughter. I was never sorry to have been baptized and in fact it may have helped in subtle ways. She will find it easier at school when people ask, she can always change direction but it is impossible to go back, she will always have that to fall on, knowing you did it to help her have a foundation (what ever the religion).

From a non-dual perspective, all of existence is part of the creator. Creator and creation are One despite the apparent separations. Christ himself makes references to himself and the father being one. Or treating others as you would treat yourself. These make more sense (to me) when I consider there is no separation between me and others, nor me and the creator. Hence one can accept Jesus and all he stood for but it does not imply more.

Evil or Satan in Dharma specifically Adviata, does not exist, rather it is an explanation of behaviour and actions based on our likes and dislikes. An evil King gathers an army and conquers a land, forcing others to change their religion and give up wealth... a good king rides forth, conquers, civilizes the ignorant and returns with wealth to share with the people of his city. It is all down to perspective or attitude, and that is what will bring us inner peace. In Adviata one must come to know one Self as being more than our morals, likes and dislikes.

 

[zenzero]

Friend sunsplash,

So this is where I am:
I believe wholeheartedly in God, the God of the Israelites and the God in the Bible.
I question Jesus' divinity
I'm not anti-Catholic but I do not agree with their concept of saints, the virgin Mary, Mary as anyone of superiority, confession, etc.
I believe evolution and creationism/science and God go hand-in-hand
I believe in the OT, that it is based on fact but that not everything can be read literally
I do not take rabbinical law as God's Law
I'm seeking God's Truth, not man's interpretation of events that were decided to be true based on a general concensus for the benefit of their "church."
These are the questions I am currently asking myself:
If Jesus is really messiah, is what Christianity is today what he intended the following to be, or was it supposed to be more of a reform of Judaism at that time, and not the complete separation that it is today?
Can faith and truth/fact coexist in a single religion?
Is religion necessary or is spirituality enough?
Where do I fit in?
Most currently comtemplating:
What/who is evil/Satan?
Non-dualism

Any *BELIEF* is mind matter or based on *thoughts*.
Truth appears only when thoughts are *STILL* or the mind is no-thoughts.
There is nothing as *I* except for using as a label for an understanding.
Whatever is the form or no-form the origin and the end is the same and that complete entity is what has been labelled as God or which personally address as the *whole* so in effect the human form is also a part of that entity meaning that even in human form one is not separate from that whole but a part of it.
Separation takes place only when the mind *thinks* at that moment the individual gets disconnected with the whole in a wholly way though remains connected but only in a limited way.
In effect Satan is none other than our *THOUGHTS* that takes us to another side of the pendulum.
More as we go along.

Love & rgds
To be wholly is *holy*

 

[sunsplash]

Yesterday while reading responses to a thread (of course I forgot to subscribe and now can't find it again!), one reply said something along the lines of "Jesus is The Word." This got me thinking - The Word of God? Isn't that kind of like Moses - a man bestowed with God's Law who shared and spoke God's Law with the people? What necessity is there for Jesus' divinity if he is the Word of God? God manifested in human form to speak His piece seems unnecessary since He used prophets as mediums prior.

I know I'm not understanding this as it was intended, especially after having thought about this all night and not being able to refer back to the thread for more information and reference to how and why the comment came about. Now I'm a tad frustrated.

I can't understand how people can be so devout on a theory that can't be proven and leave everything to faith. I don't understand faith I guess. To believe in something and not require an explanation, just accepting it what for it is and trusting it as Truth. The deeper I search the more confused I become and fear I'm moving backwards instead of forwards. I wish I could just cast off any and all preconceived ideas and start from scratch - like a baby, pure of mind and spirit not yet corrupted by society.

More later as thoughts come to me...

~ sunsplash
A spiritual seeker on a quest with questions

 

[zenzero]

Friend sunsplash,

I wish I could just cast off any and all preconceived ideas and start from scratch - like a baby, pure of mind and spirit not yet corrupted by society

You have hit the nail on the head!
One has to start from scratch.
one has to be childlike to understand that it is always there, we are IT; but looking here and there for something which we are carrying with us all the time.

Yes, forget what is said by whom; just flow with the tide of life which is not by trying to understand what is not understood but by understanding only that much that is understood and slowly and surely those that are not understood now will at some point be understood. Each thing comes on its own time and allow things to happen naturally.
It is our own mind [thoughts] that is the barrier to our own growth and by breaking that barrier we merge with that ocean.

Love & rgds

 

[sunsplash]

A response from a member about conversion in a Hindu thread:

Religious conversions amount to not only accepting a new religion but denying one's previous religion. This does not make a convert wiser with the added knowledge of a new religion, but narrow minded due to not seeing the possibilities of truth expressing itself in all religions. Religious conversions generate intolerance and narrow mindedness. What is required is not the exclusive mindset of conversion propagated by the Abrahamic religions but the inclusive mindset of acceptance propagated by the Hinduism. Seeing truth express itself in all religions and being free to choose the religion we wish while accepting that others may find other religions enticing is the Hindu way unlike the Abrahamic way which says that truth is confined to only one religion and conversion to it is the only salvation. The former leads to peace among religions while the latter leads to warfare among religions. Hence, religious conversions are pernicious.

Now, I don't know if this was specifically generated towards only Hindu converts, but either way, is it wrong that this bothered me? I'm not in the process of converting to anything but have set forth away from one religion in exploration of all other faiths, with conversion a possibility if I find one that feels right for myself. If you find a faith different from one you were formerly apart of, how is that narrowminded? Are you only enlightened when you cast off all "organized" religion? This seems to be an unfair generalization, that people who look for comfort in other faiths are in fact just harming their spiritual growth by having discovered a safety in a Truth that makes sense to them, even if that truth is not universal to all. Is there only one Truth? If there is only one Truth universal to all beings, can't there be many truths in Truth?

Yes, I am talking in riddles now it seems.

And while there may be a handful of converts that go straight from Religion A to Religion B, I'm more inclined to believe that the majority did a vast search before settling in their new home.

I appreciate learning of this mindset - it's one more thing for me to contemplate on my journey...so I share it here to remind myself of where I am and how far I've come when I look back later on.

 

[DoctorAnswerMan]

How many threads did you intend to start with this 'one' question?

 

[sunsplash]

How many threads did you intend to start with this 'one' question?

I don't know how the "conversation" thing works so I'll post my response here too.

If you are referring to this thread, I posted it in the journal section so I'd have a collective area to jot down my thoughts and questions as they came to me, because the list grows longer. I didn't mean for it to be "another" thread of the "same" topic, sorry. I thought my other threads were more specifically gauged towards one question and not my spiritual journey in general, so I apologize if I seem repetitive - I admit my "Seekers" thread took a turn in a personal direction but that wasn't my intention at all when I first wrote it.

The last thing I want to do is have people brush my thoughts or questions aside because they think I'm talking in circles or not be given respect from other members because I'm confused. I wrongly assumed that various subforums should be used for each separate question to generate an appropriate response from the group I was addressing. I'm new to the site and didn't realize this was frowned upon or irritating.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Friend sunsplash,



You have hit the nail on the head!
One has to start from scratch.
one has to be childlike to understand that it is always there, we are IT; but looking here and there for something which we are carrying with us all the time.

Yes, forget what is said by whom; just flow with the tide of life which is not by trying to understand what is not understood but by understanding only that much that is understood and slowly and surely those that are not understood now will at some point be understood. Each thing comes on its own time and allow things to happen naturally.
It is our own mind [thoughts] that is the barrier to our own growth and by breaking that barrier we merge with that ocean.

Love & rgds

Theres a lot to be said of this. In fact from both of you Zenzero and Sunsplash. Allowing things like notion and preconceptions to remain at bay, all those influences, simply letting them go, and experience things directly akin to a baby with an open mind free from all that.

One of my favorites from - Hakuin- (1685-1768)

"The monkey is reaching for the moon in the water
Until death overtakes him he'll never give up.
If he'd let go the branch and disappear in the deep pool,
The whole world would shine with dazzling pureness".

 

[DoctorAnswerMan]

OK, I got it. These were your major questions:

• If Jesus is really messiah, is what Christianity is today what he intended the following to be, or was it supposed to be more of a reform of Judaism at that time, and not the complete separation that it is today?
• Can faith and truth/fact coexist in a single religion?
• Is religion necessary or is spirituality enough?
• Where do I fit in?

The first question is worthy of a thread all by itself, I'd wager (if I were a betting man).
I'd love to get back to you on these, but I'm about 10 seconds from bedtime right now! Hope I don;t lose this thread!

 

[sunsplash]

That is a common problem with many posters.

They ask too many questions or include too much material (in long posts) to cover in detail. Always reminds me of 'setting a banquet before a Baby.' :run:

I've already apologized but now that this was brought up yet again, what exactly is the point of a "journal" if not a place to jot down a collection of thoughts and questions, all at once, as they come to you? If my purpose was to discuss and debate each little thing, one at a time, I'd post it in the appropriate subforum. Wait - I thought that's what I did?

So what have I done wrong?

 

[Quagmire]

So what have I done wrong?

Not a thing, Sunsplash. People have just started using the Journals Forum so we haven't come up with a hard and fast set of guidelines yet, but I can guarantee you that sanctimonious criticism of other people's journals won't be allowed here.

 

[Mr Cheese]

You are asking the right questions imo....

you have to find what and how and where and when
and which you consider relevant to you.

A thousand fingers can point to things
but it is you that must do the walking

It is up to you to be given the ball and score the touchdown
Ultimatly, a thousand people can all have an opinion

none of them matter
what matters is how you see things...

"We see things as we are
Not as they are"

--Kahlil Gibran

so keep going, keep going , keep going
and don't ever stop

..............

Let us know peace.
For as long as the moon shall rise,
For as long as the rivers shall flow,
For as long as the sun shall shine,
For as long as the grass shall grow,
Let us know peace.

–Cheyenne Prayer
……
Your thought is a tree rooted deep in the soil of tradition and whose branches grow in the power of continuity. My thought is a cloud moving in the space. It turns into drops which, as they fall, form a brook that sings its way into the sea. Then it rises as vapour into the sky. Your thought is a fortress that neither gale nor the lightning can shake. My thought is a tender leaf that sways in every direction and finds pleasure in its swaying. Your thought is an ancient dogma that cannot change you nor can you change it. My thought is new, and it tests me and I test it morn and eve.

You have your thought and I have mine.

Your thought allows you to believe in the unequal contest of the strong against the weak, and in the tricking of the simple by the subtle ones. My thought creates in me the desire to till the earth with my hoe, and harvest the crops with my sickle, and build my home with stones and mortar, and weave my raiment with woollen and linen threads. Your thought urges you to marry wealth and notability. Mine commends self-reliance. Your thought advocates fame and show. Mine counsels me and implores me to cast aside notoriety and treat it like a grain of sand cast upon the shore of eternity. Your thought instils in your heart arrogance and superiority. Mine plants within me love for peace and the desire for independence. Your thought begets dreams of palaces with furniture of sandalwood studded with jewels, and beds made of twisted silk threads. My thought speaks softly in my ears, “Be clean in body and spirit even if you have nowhere to lay your head.” Your thought makes you aspire to titles and offices. Mine exhorts me to humble service.

You have your thought and I have mine.

Your thought is social science, a religious and political dictionary. Mine is simple axiom. Your thought speaks of the beautiful woman, the ugly, the virtuous, the prostitute, the intelligent, and the stupid. Mine sees in every woman a mother, a sister, or a daughter of every man. The subjects of your thought are thieves, criminals, and assassins. Mine declares that thieves are the creatures of monopoly, criminals are the offspring of tyrants, and assassins are akin to the slain. Your thought describes laws, courts, judges, punishments. Mine explains that when man makes a law, he either violates it or obeys it. If there is a basic law, we are all one before it. He who disdains the mean is himself mean. He who vaunts his scorn of the sinful vaunts his disdain of all humanity. Your thought concerns the skilled, the artist, the intellectual, the philosopher, the priest. Mine speaks of the loving and the affectionate, the sincere, the honest, the forthright, the kindly, and the martyr. Your thought advocates Judaism, Brahmanism, Buddhism, Christianity, and Islam. In my thought there is only one universal religion, whose varied paths are but the fingers of the loving hand of the Supreme Being. In your thought there are the rich, the poor, and the beggared. My thought holds that there are no riches but life; that we are all beggars, and no benefactor exists save life herself.

You have your thought and I have mine.

According to your thought, the greatness of nations lies in their politics, their parties, their conferences, their alliances and treaties. But mine proclaims that the importance of nations lies in work – work in the field, work in the vineyards, work with the loom, work in the tannery, work in the quarry, work in the timberyard, work in the office and in the press. Your thought holds that the glory of the nations is in their heroes. It sings the praises of Rameses, Alexander, Caesar, Hannibal, and Napoleon. But mine claims that the real heroes are Confucius, Lao-Tse, Socrates, Plato, Abi Taleb, El Gazali, Jalal Ed-din-el Roumy, Copernicus, and Pasteur. Your thought sees power in armies, cannons, battleships, submarines, aeroplanes, and poison gas. But mine asserts that power lies in reason, resolution, and truth. No matter how long the tyrant endures, he will be the loser at the end. Your thought differentiates between pragmatist and idealist, between the part and the whole, between the mystic and materialist. Mine realizes that life is one and its weights, measures and tables do not coincide with your weights, measures and tables. He whom you suppose an idealist may be a practical man.

You have your thought and I have mine.

Your thought is interested in ruins and museums, mummies and petrified objects. But mine hovers in the ever-renewed haze and clouds. Your thought is enthroned on skulls. Since you take pride in it, you glorify it too. My thought wanders in the obscure and distant valleys. Your thought trumpets while you dance. Mine prefers the anguish of death to your music and dancing. Your thought is the thought of gossip and false pleasure. Mine is the thought of him who is lost in his own country, of the alien in his own nation, of the solitary among his kinfolk and friends.

You have your thought and I have mine.

–Kahlil Gibran

 

[Breathe]

Congrats on using the Journals thread, Sunsplash! I was thinking about it when I learnt that we have one, but I get the feeling as soon as I start one, I'll write in it once and then end up finding my own faith, then feel like a prat when I have one post explaining "My spiritual thoughts as a seeker", and then another saying "I've found out the path for me!".

How many threads did you intend to start with this 'one' question?

Um, as a fellow seeker, I found this to be incredibly rude. Not only is this not just 'one' question, but a really important thing for us. Not to mention that this is the journals...

 

[Shia Islam]

My Journey, Part 1 -

...

Just to Congratulate you for being honest unbiased in your seek.
You know... the problem with people who fail to find the truth is that they want to prove that the truth is what they desire it to be, rather than honestly seeking it..

Keep up the good work.
God always with the honest people ...he will guide them :bow:

 

[Beta]

I've already apologized but now that this was brought up yet again, what exactly is the point of a "journal" if not a place to jot down a collection of thoughts and questions, all at once, as they come to you? If my purpose was to discuss and debate each little thing, one at a time, I'd post it in the appropriate subforum. Wait - I thought that's what I did?

So what have I done wrong?

:sorry1: - I see the point of a 'journal' now !!!

Does that mean you expect no replies ? Won't bother reading it in future. Or maybe it's not such a bad idea to get things off your chest without getting hauled over the coals Free speech ...and all that...

 

[sunsplash]

:sorry1: - I see the point of a 'journal' now !!!

Does that mean you expect no replies ? Won't bother reading it in future. Or maybe it's not such a bad idea to get things off your chest without getting hauled over the coals Free speech ...and all that...

It's a public journal, so feel free to respond with insight, support, questions you think I should reasearch that would help me on my journey. Negative criticism and intentional rudeness about what or why I write something is belittlement and a scornful rejection of my emotions and struggles as a human being, considering this section. When I address each question in its appropriate subforum (as I have been doing), THAT would be the place to disagree or "call me out" on whether or not you think I'm wasting your time. Until then, if you don't enjoy reading about my thoughts as I go about my personal journey, please save yourself the misery my words impose on you. I hope other people will be able to relate though as not everyone is firmly planted in a spiritual walk, and I expect understand where I'm coming from. :yes:

 

[Willowmina]

Originally Posted by zenzero
Friend sunsplash,



You have hit the nail on the head!
One has to start from scratch.
one has to be childlike to understand that it is always there, we are IT; but looking here and there for something which we are carrying with us all the time.

Yes, forget what is said by whom; just flow with the tide of life which is not by trying to understand what is not understood but by understanding only that much that is understood and slowly and surely those that are not understood now will at some point be understood. Each thing comes on its own time and allow things to happen naturally.
It is our own mind [thoughts] that is the barrier to our own growth and by breaking that barrier we merge with that ocean.

Love & rgds

Theres a lot to be said of this. In fact from both of you Zenzero and Sunsplash. Allowing things like notion and preconceptions to remain at bay, all those influences, simply letting them go, and experience things directly akin to a baby with an open mind free from all that.

One of my favorites from - Hakuin- (1685-1768)

"The monkey is reaching for the moon in the water
Until death overtakes him he'll never give up.
If he'd let go the branch and disappear in the deep pool,
The whole world would shine with dazzling pureness".

================================

Hi guys...
I find this discussion very interesting. I've recently come across this website Welcome/Home (the-aaahh.org) and I can't quite get my head around it. Do you think it may also connect with this discussion?

 

[zenzero]

Friend Willomina,

Though do not participate on any other forum and neither a member of any organised religion as simply follow a religion or way that suits!
Personal understanding is that religion is personal journey even if through a path followed by others and the only way to do so is to be HERE-NOW!, which means the past moment is dead and the future moment yet to come and living HERE-NOW is to be always present.
In that way one is always fresh and child like.
Love & rgds

 

[Willowmina]

Theres a lot to be said of this. In fact from both of you Zenzero and Sunsplash. Allowing things like notion and preconceptions to remain at bay, all those influences, simply letting them go, and experience things directly akin to a baby with an open mind free from all that.

One of my favorites from - Hakuin- (1685-1768)

"The monkey is reaching for the moon in the water
Until death overtakes him he'll never give up.
If he'd let go the branch and disappear in the deep pool,
The whole world would shine with dazzling pureness".

Friend Willomina,

Though do not participate on any other forum and neither a member of any organised religion as simply follow a religion or way that suits!
Personal understanding is that religion is personal journey even if through a path followed by others and the only way to do so is to be HERE-NOW!, which means the past moment is dead and the future moment yet to come and living HERE-NOW is to be always present.
In that way one is always fresh and child like.
Love & rgds

Dear friend zenzero,
Wordiness and intellection--
The more with them the further astray we go;
Away therefore with wordiness and intellection,
And there is no place where we cannot pass freely.

--on believing in mind (Seng-t'san)


&#8216;living HERE-NOW is to be always present&#8217;&#8230;..
More words?

How do we enter the Silence friend?
Just by adding more words?

Love &rgds