1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured A Question for Theists

Discussion in 'Theism' started by Hubert Farnsworth, Feb 27, 2020.

  1. Hubert Farnsworth

    Hubert Farnsworth Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2016
    Messages:
    3,032
    Ratings:
    +2,120
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Theists: Why does God need to intervene in the universe to accomplish his goals? If God were perfect and all-knowing, he could set up the universe in such a way so that interventions and alterations of the events in the universe were unnecessary. However, the theistic concept of God seems to be like that of a programmer who wrote some software, and after running his program, he realized that it did things that were not to his liking, so he periodically makes tweaks to the program to make it better fit his original goals for it. But, if the programmer (God) were all-knowing, he would be able to write a program that creates a universe in which events unfold exactly as he wants them to, with no need to intervene and alter the original setup. So, it seems to me that either the God of Classical Theism is not all-knowing and all-powerful and made errors in his original algorithm design for the universe that he is continuing to change, or, he could have made a universe in which events would unfold exactly as they do now without any interventions, but he purposely chose to write an imperect algorithm that would need future alterations. But this seems to be an absurd position. It seems more logical to believe that either there is no god, or if there are god/gods, they designed the universe the way they wanted it and then left it alone.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  2. sun rise

    sun rise "Let there be peace and love among all"
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2014
    Messages:
    44,139
    Ratings:
    +17,797
    Religion:
    Love
    That presumes that God is separate from the universe. That's not my frame-of-reference. To me God and the universe is One.
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Winner Winner x 2
  3. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2019
    Messages:
    5,865
    Ratings:
    +3,536
    Religion:
    Judaism
    Yes.... you rang... :cool:
    Good question.
    All of this makes perfect sense as long as the God Concept in your premise is shared by the Theist. Yes, based on your parameters, it is an absurd position. However, I don't view God in that manner and I expect that many other Theists here don't either.
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Winner Winner x 1
  4. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2005
    Messages:
    44,550
    Ratings:
    +8,816
    Good point.
    So what is your particular view of God that makes him immune to the OPs scenario?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. beenherebeforeagain

    beenherebeforeagain Rogue Animist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2011
    Messages:
    18,402
    Ratings:
    +5,742
    Religion:
    Modern Animist
    Yes, the classic Western theological concept of the omnimax deity IS an absurdity. But not all theists subscribe to the classic Western theology.

    Now then, what of a deity that created the universe with a set of algorithms not to have a certain final outcome/product, but to see what would happen with a given set of parameters...maybe even a creative art project...

    Would an omnimax deity need to do such a thing? No...such a deity doing anything is an absurdity. But consider a deity that doesn't know everything...it might want to find out "what if..."

    Or maybe, "can I make something aesthetically pleasing by using these tools on this canvas/media?
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Winner Winner x 1
  6. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2019
    Messages:
    5,865
    Ratings:
    +3,536
    Religion:
    Judaism
    .. Perhaps I should first clarify that I understand the OP's scenario? The issue is: intervention, right? Why didn't God create existence in perfection? Why does it need intervention? By people?

    If so, if that's the issue, then my objection is that God in the OP doesn't want to be involved on a concurrent basis. That is God behaving like a computer programmer. The God concept that i agree with is a God that wants to be included in what we humans, plants, animals, rocks, etc, are doing. And because of that, the existence that is being created encourages interaction between God and people. This interaction is the intervention described in the OP. Because God wants the interaction, God would want an imperfect existence that requires intervention.
     
  7. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2006
    Messages:
    13,546
    Ratings:
    +5,315
    Religion:
    Philosophical Taoist/Christian
    Not being all-knowing ourselves, it would be very unlikely that we could know what being all-knowing would entail. So one of us making claims about what an all-knowing God could or would do is a bit nonsensical.

    Also, I know a lot of theists relate to their idea of God as if God intervenes in the course of existential events, but that doesn't mean they all actually believe that God does this. It means that a lot of humans need to be able to HOPE for that kind of help, and they use the conception of God to provide them a means of accessing that hope. I understand your confusion, because a lot of theists do speak as if their God were some sort of magician that could be coerced into changing the flow of circumstance to favor His worshipers. But in all sincerity, that's not really how most theists view God. It's far more common that they see God as the soul of existence, itself. And they pray for benevolence because they are afraid of the power of circumstance, and the prayers help them to alleviate that fear.
     
  8. Quintessence

    Quintessence Tale Weaver
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2011
    Messages:
    20,098
    Ratings:
    +13,318
    Religion:
    Druidry

    That's an awkward way of putting it. The gods do not "need" to "intervene" to accomplish "his" (male, really??) alleged "goals." The gods are not persons in the same sense humans are persons and there is an awful lot of human person assuming going on with this sentence. The strong majority of gods simply do not have "needs" or "goals" or "interventions" in the sense that humans do. They have natures, and act in accord with those natures. Storm Spirit does not "need" to "intervene" with the "goal" of doing storm things... Storm just does storm things because it's Storm. It's not complicated.



    Oh. You're not talking about theism more generally. You're talking about classical monotheism. Okay that's fine. That god-concept is deliberately obtuse, abstract, and not supposed to be interpreted as a person, so... it'd be good to stop doing that for starters. Beyond that, not my god, so I'll leave its devotees to speak upon it. Monotheism in general doesn't make sense to me, much less classical monotheism.
     
    • Winner Winner x 2
    • Informative Informative x 1
  9. 'mud

    'mud ~~ Life is Stuff ~~
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2011
    Messages:
    4,645
    Ratings:
    +1,817
    Religion:
    ~~ LIFE ~~
    Theists same to believe they have a piece of God's soul in themselves don't they ?
    I have to wonder where the `soul` came, Eve didn't get one, did she ?
    When, other then with Adam, did the `soul` get distributed ?
    Maybe Cain or Able ? Confused with Spirit I guess; no big deal, is it ?
     
  10. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2011
    Messages:
    20,136
    Ratings:
    +8,215
    Religion:
    Hinduism, Vaishnava
    In Hinduism God (in any of his or her forms) does occasionally get into the affairs of the world. There is something called ṛta (rih-tuh) which is the natural order, or rule, "which regulates and coordinates the operation of the universe and everything within it" - (Ṛta - Wikipedia). His actions have never been directed towards the world as a whole, e.g. no global floods to wipe out mankind; no firebombing cities for being "wicked"; no plagues directed against a sovereign nation. Y'know, stuff like that.

    Vishnu, as the preserver, establisher, and maintainer of dharma (righteousness, order), will step in, in one of his avatars to set things right.
    For example, for those who believe the Buddha is an avatar of Vishnu (I'm on the fence but I lean towards it), his goal was to stop the abuses, and I dare say corruption of rulers and religious leaders, and their taking advantage of the masses. Not unlike Jesus and the Pharisees. The Buddha wanted to put an end to animal sacrifices, and rituals that were ends in themselves, and had become meaningless.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  11. George-ananda

    George-ananda Advaita Vedanta and Spiritualist and Pantheist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2012
    Messages:
    14,162
    Ratings:
    +5,029
    Religion:
    Advaita and Spiritualist and Pantheist
    A Question for Theists

    I'll answer from my Advaita/Pantheist (non-dual=God and creation are not-two) view.

    The universe is a great play/drama with a positive ending (the Oneness of All). It is exactly as designed with the drama in the middle as designed. Don't great human play/dramas have much drama in the middle. In the end it all has its purpose in the story.
     
    #11 George-ananda, Feb 27, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2020
    • Like Like x 1
  12. Iymus

    Iymus Active Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2020
    Messages:
    766
    Ratings:
    +142
    Religion:
    Abrahamic
    Hos 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

    1Sa 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

    Deu 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

    Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
    Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.






     
  13. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2013
    Messages:
    8,561
    Ratings:
    +2,300
    Religion:
    Judeo/Christian
    Your premise is wrong.

    He didn't want robots.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  14. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2020
    Messages:
    1,423
    Ratings:
    +51
    Religion:
    spiritualist
    The story about God proves that the status God as inferred by a human male the inventor creator scientist of his own destruction is about how he was personally proven wrong his own science self.

    To own a story that talks about God the contradiction of a loving original spiritual human being male self in natural history.

    Before science was invented that forced AI changes to everything.

    In natural history the scientific male advised story about O God bodies said that the Sun O as a God angel was a rebellion against natural existence.

    Being God O in hell as a stone angel...seeing the theme of God said O angels that fell into burning, in space as went and fell into hell.

    As a conscious spiritual male self telling the stories as the storyteller.

    Science therefore is a proven self fallacy of being wrong from its owned inception.

    Whereas the scientist, as an egotist, the human self would claim God was not wrong.....consciously his mind psyche would say because God was forcibly changed by the male scientist.

    So when you apply the study and use consciousness, then you should in fact constantly infer and refer to it when applying thoughts about God history in science.

    God the O natural body of, was never wrong, the male human theorist was.

    His theory never gave him what he purposely first originally researched and studied and told you all what he studied.

    To try to copy God O natural history of the Sun converting the body of fused matter and its natural heavenly spirits, the gases.

    So how do you think you personally own any other form of argument in the state human owned, male imposed sciences?

    Science was always wrong itself, for no one accept a human being self and a group chose to do science.

    So first the self is the self and the self claims but I am innocent.
    Then with the group they share information and agree upon change.

    Then by group status against the self they attacked the self. And so afterwards still claimed self innocence...when self in the group was guilty.

    How the God contradiction is a scientific statement of a whole document that owns an answer that said after its writing....never give God the fusion or natural cosmology any more names in science, as a lawful human chosen application for survival of life on Planet Earth.

    Yet males intricately daily study every detail written in the Bible claiming that they will copy what they claim is the very origins of science itself.

    And natural spiritual humanity wonder at their inanity and claims as that male group.

    When science writes a human male document agreed upon by a world community of scientific studies......and told you to never alter the statements of natural, they did so for a human reasoning.

    Since when is destruction removing natural formed history by a status of its creation?

    It removes it by an act of destruction, and it is what you name. So then you claim you now own information in science to remove the whole O physical mass of the body of God, claiming it by particle inference, yet God is known O by male psyche and consciousness to be the whole Planet Earth O.

    Today you own a male claim to own the understanding of how to remove stone from actually existing as stone.

    And claim it as a HOLE.

    Males historically knew that the Sun original UFO mass attack bored holes right through Earth to meet in its centre. Always knew that history and told the story of how the Sun had impregnated the body of Earth with an evil spirit, the iron radiation bonding/conversion history.

    So change the naming of God the Earth as a male Father inferred story, when O stone is not any male nor is it a Father. And named it Mother Earth instead.

    And title and storytelling naming was done and applied for teaching purposes of relative humanity. That a natural human being self is first a self and natural and origin to their own status.....and then they compared their natural life and self presence to states in creation......so made a destructive or ANTI self comparison to get self removed by the powers held in creation.

    How the relativity of what an evil and inane male science self really is as a human thinker.
     
  15. Quagmire

    Quagmire Imaginary talking monkey
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2007
    Messages:
    49,014
    Ratings:
    +10,622
    Religion:
    I am not an athiest.

    As opposed to what? The un-theistic concept if God? :D
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  16. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2020
    Messages:
    1,423
    Ratings:
    +51
    Religion:
    spiritualist
    Why would a spiritual self.....as a human I am a spiritual self, yet I am just a human.

    I do not like violence nor evil themes, nor see pain and suffering or harm...and I am just a human.

    Why would a higher spiritual being own a choice to do an act that is defined as evil....burning, unless it never knew itself what evil was, until it was caused.

    Which would then state that the Creator was originally innocent of knowing change.

    And science says some form of change occurred to a higher pre existing form, knowing in science, to convert, that everything comes about by and because of forces in change.

    Yet says in science that the highest scientific state is cold...for heat destroys.

    Therefore can only claim that the origin was not burning originally.

    Ask a male egotist how he personally believes that he, as conscious human self knew everything that existed in the state out of space?

    Especially when his owned mass and scientific conversion causes a space in its held/cold fused body to own a space to claim, power came out of the state, out of a space….when he forced that space to exist.

    Such as claiming radiation is sound waves and hence nothing is real and just a hologram. When the story says science by male invented the reaction hologram/recording of voice and image to exist for self....in science reaction change of the natural atmospheric mass by machine?

    For he is the only talker on behalf of all natural bodies not talking or owning self definition.

    Therefore I would challenge that liar using transmitting attacks, pulse a sound that you claim created a human....into a space where a human being is not standing.

    And nothing would happen.

    Then you would realize, first of all a space does not exist either, for water/oxygen mass exists...and not "a space".

    That sort of male lying exists and is believed in, and it is called Satanism. To believe in forcing a hole/space itself.

    So what is life scientist without water and oxygen, what our bio life uses to exist?

    The types of information that is not relative to your machine reactions, yet you react your machine inside of the heavenly spirit that we use for life support!
     
  17. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    11,921
    Ratings:
    +2,852
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    I think you have some misconceptions about God.

    Who said that God intervenes in the universe to make alterations of events?

    Who said that God periodically makes tweaks to the program to make it better?

    Who said God has goals? How could an All-Knowing God have goals given He already knows everything so He knows how everything will turn out?

    The natural world is constantly changing because that is how nature works, not because God is “up there” pulling strings.

    People change and society changes because we have free will to make choices and changes. God is out of the picture.

    The only thing God does to intervene is when he sends Messengers in every age and reveals messages to them. Then God goes back to His Own High Place and we do not hear from Him again for another 500-1000 years. God is not a personal God who likes socializing with humans. God prefers to be alone. God and I have that in common. ;)
     
  18. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

    Joined:
    May 5, 2007
    Messages:
    21,514
    Ratings:
    +8,912
    Religion:
    Atheist, Advaita (Non-duality), Orthodox Hindu
    More like Microsoft than like a real God. ;)
    Bahaollah, the mirror image of Allah.
     
    #18 Aupmanyav, Feb 27, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2020
    • Like Like x 1
  19. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

    Joined:
    May 9, 2011
    Messages:
    7,156
    Ratings:
    +1,465
    God could have set things up as you propose, but the Bible states that God is Love and presents God as a Being who desires relationship and interaction with His creation.
     
  20. 'mud

    'mud ~~ Life is Stuff ~~
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2011
    Messages:
    4,645
    Ratings:
    +1,817
    Religion:
    ~~ LIFE ~~
    I imagine that those people that are believers in some of `God/gods`.
    Maybe they are waiting for the next big flood.
    Imagine the deaths needed to help fill up heaven,
    or were these people all sinners ? Where is `hell` ?
    Everyone has to find their `mountain` to climb,
    whether or not they worship your `Gods/gods`.
    It's all in what we honor, isn't it ?
     
    • Like Like x 1
Loading...