A Question for Atheists..

[ChristineM]

(Allah has promised the believers, both men and women, Gardens under which rivers flow, to stay there forever, and splendid homes in the Gardens of Eternity, and—above all—the pleasure of Allah. That is ˹truly˺ the ultimate triumph." Quran:Tobah:72)

(Those who believe and do good will be admitted into Gardens, under which rivers flow—to stay there forever by the Will of their Lord—where they will be greeted with “Peace!”) Quran:Ibrahim:23

(And those who were mindful of their Lord will be led to Paradise in ˹successive˺ groups. When they arrive at its ˹already˺ open gates, its keepers will say, “Peace be upon you! You have done well, so come in, to stay forever.”) Quran:Zumur:73

(And Paradise will be brought near to the righteous, not far off. | ˹And it will be said to them,˺ “This is what you were promised, for whoever ˹constantly˺ turned ˹to Allah˺ and kept up ˹His commandments˺| who were in awe of the Most Compassionate without seeing ˹Him˺,1 and have come with a heart turning ˹only to Him˺. | Enter it in peace. This is the Day of eternal life!” | There they will have whatever they desire, and with Us is ˹even˺ more.) Quran:Qaf:31-35

There are hundreds of verses like these in Quran that promise eternal life in paradise.



If I may ask, what do you mean by 'Happens every time'?

I will answer both at once, i expect quotation from a book of myth without corroborating evidence which is in no way evidence. You are of course welcome to believe whatever you want. Belief is not evidence

 

[Subduction Zone]

Then, why don't you mention that God magnifies himself (is too kind) by offering infinite heaven for finite morals?

One can always offer more than is merited. If he actually did that he does gain some credit. But it appears that the evil of the Biblical God is far greater than his magnanimity.

 

[Loaai]

We're talking about divine justice.

We're also talking about a God billed as omnipotent and omniscient.

Therefore Hitler could have done nothing that God didn't intend him to do.

And Hitler didn't have any choice about that.

So is Hitler to be punished for doing God's will?

And all the people who suffered under Hitler and want revenge, these were only doing what God had always intended them to do.

They didn't have any choice either.

So are they to be rewarded for doing God's will?

Exactly, but take it one step further..

God had actually given them free will and freedom of choice before they were born, he just knows what they are going to do with that free will, since he's omnipotent and omniscient.

Then why are we even alive?

Imagine a judge judging a person with death or innocence without evidence, wouldn't that be unfair?

In the afterlife, Every person will bear witness to himself for what he had done in his life, hadn't God done this would be extremely unfair since he would judge every person without actual evidence. Basically what we are doing now is evidence for our future most equitable trial with the omnipotent and the omniscient Allah.

(Indeed, Allah never wrongs ˹anyone˺—even by an atom’s weight.1 And if it is a good deed, He will multiply it many times over and will give a great reward out of His grace.) Quran:Al-Nisa:40

 

[Loaai]

I will answer both at once, i expect quotation from a book of myth without corroborating evidence which is in no way evidence. You are of course welcome to believe whatever you want. Belief is not evidence

So you want evidence that Allah exsists?

 

[Loaai]

One can always offer more than is merited. If he actually did that he does gain some credit. But it appears that the evil of the Biblical God is far greater than his magnanimity.

(Indeed, Allah never wrongs ˹anyone˺—even by an atom’s weight.1 And if it is a good deed, He will multiply it many times over and will give a great reward out of His grace.) Quran:Al-Nisa:40

I don't necessarily know about the Bible and the Torah but in Islam that verse emphasizes that if you do a good deed Allah will never wrong you.

 

[ChristineM]

So you want evidence that Allah exsists?

Falsifiable, verifiable evidence yes. To date none has ever been provided by anyone that would stand up in a court of law. If someone did provide such evidence they would be rich and famous beyond avarice, religious leaders would be falling over themselves to get on their speed dial list. And of course it would be the end of faith.

 

[McBell]

IF God is proven to exist THEN Atheism/Atheist do not exist (only Theists remain).

I hear this nonsense quite a lot and it is never shown to be true.

Atheists tell Theists all the time "Prove that God exist, then I believe in God"

Not this one.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Not this one.

I think his error arises from conflating evidence and "proof". Evidence supports and idea but very rarely "proves" it. Atheists are always asking for at least some evidence. Since there appears to be none theists in self defense conflate evidence for proof and created a false claim based on that.

 

[Subduction Zone]

(Indeed, Allah never wrongs ˹anyone˺—even by an atom’s weight.1 And if it is a good deed, He will multiply it many times over and will give a great reward out of His grace.) Quran:Al-Nisa:40

I don't necessarily know about the Bible and the Torah but in Islam that verse emphasizes that if you do a good deed Allah will never wrong you.

I did not notice that you are a Muslim I do not understand the Muslim concept of God well enough to refute it or point out how it is evil, though I am rather sure that if I studied Islam I could show how that was the case. Of course his condemnation of bacon alone relegates him to being just another human construct.

 

[Loaai]

Falsifiable, verifiable evidence yes. To date none has ever been provided by anyone that would stand up in a court of law. If someone did provide such evidence they would be rich and famous beyond avarice, religious leaders would be falling over themselves to get on their speed dial list. And of course it would be the end of faith.

If Allah wants to.. he would instantly force everybody to believe (since he's omniscient and omnipotent) but that would spoil the whole test!
Messengers like Muhammed -peace be upon him- were sent with literal miracles that exist till now in a form of scientific statements mentioned 1400 years ago to invite people to worship Allah and obey his rules.

But doesn't (my Allah) know that there will be people who won't believe?
-Yes of course and that's why it's called a test!

 

[Subduction Zone]

If Allah wants to.. he would instantly force everybody to believe (since he's omniscient and omnipotent) but that would spoil the whole test!
Messengers like Muhammed -peace be upon him- were sent with literal miracles that exist till now in a form of scientific statements mentioned 1400 years ago to invite people to worship Allah and obey his rules.

But doesn't (my Allah) know that there will be people who won't believe?
-Yes of course and that's why it's called a test!

From what I understand such "miracles" are totally missing from the Quran and exist only as reinterpretation after the fact. Now if the Quran clearly predicted something that was later shown to be true you might have a valid claim. The history of scientific discoveries alone refutes this claim. The Muslim world was the leader in scientific discoveries until the disease of fundamentalism took over and their scientific discoveries went to almost nothing.

 

[McBell]

If Allah wants to.. he would instantly force everybody to believe (since he's omniscient and omnipotent) but that would spoil the whole test!
Messengers like Muhammed -peace be upon him- were sent with literal miracles that exist till now in a form of scientific statements mentioned 1400 years ago to invite people to worship Allah and obey his rules.

But doesn't (my Allah) know that there will be people who won't believe?
-Yes of course and that's why it's called a test!

Test?
What Test?

 

[Loaai]

I did not notice that you are a Muslim I do not understand the Muslim concept of God well enough to refute it or point out how it is evil, though I am rather sure that if I studied Islam I could show how that was the case. Of course his condemnation of bacon alone relegates him to being just another human construct.

Believe me thousands like you thought they could just spend their whole lives trying to refute Islam only to fail miserably and some of them even converted to Islam! Hundreds of scientific statements proved today were mentioned 1400 years ago in the Quran, believe me I would be more than happy if you actually learnt about this religion.

 

[Loaai]

From what I understand such "miracles" are totally missing from the Quran and exist only as reinterpretation after the fact. Now if the Quran clearly predicted something that was later shown to be true you might have a valid claim. The history of scientific discoveries alone refutes this claim. The Muslim world was the leader in scientific discoveries until the disease of fundamentalism took over and their scientific discoveries went to almost nothing.

Well, From what I understand I think you haven't even read a single verse in the Quran.

 

[McBell]

Hundreds of scientific statements proved today were mentioned 1400 years ago in the Quran.

A rather bold claim.
Another Muslim made a similar claim here years ago.

Said Muslim failed to support the claim outside the choir though.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Believe me thousands like you thought they could just spend their whole lives trying to refute Islam only to fail miserably and some of them even converted to Islam! Hundreds of scientific statements proved today were mentioned 1400 years ago in the Quran, believe me I would be more than happy if you actually learnt about this religion.

I don't believe you. In fact one does not really need to refute Islam, since it cannot find valid support for its beliefs it is self refuting. Do you understand this? The burden of proof actually falls upon you, not on those that do not believe your religion. But as to people failing miserably that is almost certainly a falsehood. Religious people can almost never be honest and impartial when it is their own religious beliefs that are being refuted so a Muslim would be likely the last person to know if his beliefs were refuted or not.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Well, From what I understand I think you haven't even read a single verse in the Quran.

And there you go. You confirmed my claim about how the religious cannot be honest about arguments against there own religious beliefs. There is nothing in my post that would have led to that conclusion.

The proper thing to do was to find an example that demonstrated that I was wrong. But you will not find such a case. You will only find reinterpretation after the fact at best. This is a prediction, but one that has never been shown to be wrong. Whether Christian, Muslim, or other religious person trying to support their claims.

 

[blü 2]

Exactly, but take it one step further..

God had actually given them free will and freedom of choice before they were born, he just knows what they are going to do with that free will, since he's omnipotent and omniscient.

Nope. That can't be right. They can do exactly and only what God perfectly foresaw they'd do back before he made the universe. [His] perfect foreknowledge leaves no room for freewill, no way of taking God by surprise, no way of altering the future. Indeed, if [he]'s omnipresent, [he]'s already in the future, so NOW is the past for [him], and as fixed as the past always is.

Then why are we even alive?

Because of evolution, but that's outside the framework we're discussing.

Imagine a judge judging a person with death or innocence without evidence, wouldn't that be unfair?

What, if the judge had the power to cure the person instead? No, curing the person is the only humane way to proceed.

In the afterlife, Every person will bear witness to himself for what he had done in his life, hadn't God done this would be extremely unfair since he would judge every person without actual evidence.

No, God has known all the evidence since before [he] made the universe. And [his] perfect foreknowledge extends to the afterlife.

You say [he] torments them, sends them to Hell for eternity, acts like a primitive vindictive human.

I say any God worth human respect is smart, insightful, a carer, a healer, a benevolent being.

But you prefer the former, you've made that clear, so we're done, aren't we?

 

[stvdv]

I hear this nonsense quite a lot and it is never shown to be true.

I answered a hypothetical question. So your "I hear this nonsense" reply makes no sense

 

[McBell]

I answered a hypothetical question. So your "I hear this nonsense" reply makes no sense

If you do not hear that particular nonsense a lot and it never be shown to be anything other than a bold empty makes me feel good claim, then I can understand how it makes no sense to you.