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Featured A Close Look At Truth

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by nPeace, Jul 29, 2020.

  1. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    It is often said, that Atheists know the Bible better than Christians.
    Although I would agree that this statement is true regarding the commonly held misunderstood and trivialized modern view (See Explanation), it certainly is not true when considering (1) the correct understanding of what Christianity is, and (2) the true understanding of what Atheists misunderstand.

    According to Wikipedia
    Christians are people who follow or adhere to Christianity, a monotheistic Abrahamic religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus Christ.

    If we are going to use this definition, then we cannot turn a blind eye, or ignore ignorance concerning the life and teachings of Jesus Christ.
    In other words, we cannot refer to any person as Christian, regardless of if their religion and religious beliefs reflect the way Jesus lived - his actions and activities, and his teachings.
    For example, suppose a religion promotes a life of luxurious living, with leaders taking prominent titles, etc., would it be correct to say that this religion follows, or reflects the life of Jesus Christ? Surely, we can agree... most certainly not! (Matthew 23)
    Or suppose a religion professing Christianity, taught that Jesus did not face death, or that he is not the son of God, can we truthfully say that such religious teachings are based on Jesus' teachings? Of course not. (Matthew 20:28; Matthew 16:13-17)

    Hence, it is clearly evident, that the words Christian, and Christianity are being used lightly, and with frivolousness, thus incorrectly.
    With such distortion, it is easy to overlook the clear distinction between Christian and "Christian"; Christianity and "Christianity", and thus fool oneself into thinking that the "Christian" knows what they are talking about... when evidently, they don't.

    Thus, the Atheist has created a fantasy world for himself - a myth, by mistakenly thinking that he is engaging a Christian.
    The other way the Atheist has created his mythical world, is by deluding himself into thinking that he knows and understands full well what he reads in scripture.
    To give a simple example, consider the very first book of the Bible, and just the third Chapter. Here is where we will take our first close look at truth.
    Gen 3 - particularly verse 14...
    Atheist think that they know all about this scripture, and God cursing the serpent. However, a close look reveals that they, as well as "Christians" are mistaken.

    Was God cursing a snake?
    Evidently not. How do we know? The context.
    When we consider the texts closely, from verse 1-15, we realize that there is an entity involved, that is not identified at this point in time, but is revealed much later.
    Verse 15 however, sheds some light on a future revelation.
    God said, "... I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed;
    He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel.”

    This is not a prophetic utterance regarding a slithery reptile.
    For the Christian, this is clear. The Atheists however, is evidently in the dark.
    In just that early beginning, is is clear, the Atheist does not know the Bible as the Christian does.
    Is he willing to learn? Let's see.
     
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  2. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    It is not only Atheists that are confused about what the Bible really means
    All Christians are confused as well, as there are thousands of Christian sects
    So, if the Atheists are confused it's only because the Christians make Bible confusing
     
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  3. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

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    “Truth?”
     
  4. bobhikes

    bobhikes Nowoligist
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    While there is truth to what you say it mostly concerns scholarly Christians. The average Christian does not know the bible as well as anyone that has taken the time to study and debate it, whether it be an Atheist or just another religions scholar. If you debate on the RF for any time you will find that out. The are a few but very few scholarly religious debaters on the RF most are general Christians that wont understand your post.
     
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  5. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    I'm not sure how this connects. Not believing in God means you don't have good deep knowledge of the Bible?

    Maybe you mean spiritually?

    Many atheist know the Bible when they were once Christian. Missionaries have became atheist and so have ministers who have studied Christianity and know more the context than the average Christian.

    Intellectually, religious beliefs doesn't matter when studying scripture. It's obvious if one doesn't believe in the Christian god they can't derive the "spiritual" context of it...speaking those atheists who were never Christian to begin with.

    I think you're talking to those atheists who never been Christian.

    The Bible isn't That special that no one else can know about it spiritually but believers. It's whether one applies it to their lives that makes the difference. Discrediting atheists isn't the answer.
     
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  6. QuestioningMind

    QuestioningMind Well-Known Member

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    It's often said that atheists know what the bible says better than Christians... which has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not that they interpret what the bible says correctly or not. Of course the fact that there are 1000's of different Christian sects suggests that Christians don't have any better grasp of how to interpret the words than atheists do.
     
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  7. ecco

    ecco Veteran Member

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    How interesting. You know what atheists misunderstand about the Bible. Of course, it never occurs to you that you are the one who misunderstands the Bible. Do you personally know ten Biblical scholars who support your views? No? Why is that? Is it because you know more about the Bible than people who have spent years studying and researching it and comparing it to actual historical documents?
     
  8. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    When you say all Christians, I take it you mean both Christians and "Christians".
    On what basis are you judging Christians, since as you pointed out, these various sects disagree, and there are thousands?
    Do you know all Christians, that you can made this judgment?
     
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  9. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Do those scholarly "Christians" get that account in Genesis 3 right? Not that I know of.
    Do you know of any that realize God is not there judging an actual slithering reptile?
     
  10. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    What you take for granted, is that you hold Truth. That is simple to test how that works in practice. I disagree with you that you do hold Truth. Now because you hold Truth, it follows I don't. But I am still here. We are in an universe where it is possible not to hold Truth, but according to your version of Truth, that is the Truth. How? Since you hold Truth, it must be the Truth that I don't and thus the Truth is that is possible not to hold the Truth.
    What now? What comes next? Where do we go from here?
     
  11. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    First: I am glad that you point out my mistake:D, so thank you.
    This gives me a good opportunity to address an important issue.

    When speaking about God and/or Faith "stuff" we should not make a claim "G" (Generalizing for all), according to you pointing out my mistake; I agree

    I have a few simple questions to all of which you obviously will agree with a big fat YES (Unless you want to make the same mistake I made):
    1) All Christians are confused who claim "Jesus Christ is the only Truth for all" (a claim "G")
    2) All Christians are confused who claim "Christianity is a better path than Atheism" (a claim "G")
    3) All Christians are confused who claim "Christianity is a better path than Satanism" (a claim "G")
    4) All Christians are confused who claim "Only true Jehova Witnesses might be saved" (a claim "G")
    5) All Christians are confused who claim "Only true Jehova Witnesses can know the correct meaning of the Bible" (a claim "G")
    6) All Christians are confused who claim "The Bible is the best Scripture on Earth when it comes to the Truth" (a claim "G")
    7) All Christians are confused who claim "There is no other Scripture as good as the Bible when it comes to the Truth"(a claim "G")
    8) All Christians are confused who claim "Christianity is a better path than Buddism, Hinduism, Islam or ..." (a claim "G")
    9) All Christians are confused who claim "Practising gay lifestyle is inferior than practising straight lifestyle" (a claim "G")

    Notes:
    I do not judge them, because I made no judgment (as in "it's good/bad"), just an observation. Big difference, I hope you see and understand this.
    I only make the observation that all Christians are confused about what the Bible really means as well, so I did not single out Christians
    And I also clearly implied IF Christians say atheists are confused, then All Christians are confused too
     
    #11 stvdv, Jul 31, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2020
  12. bobhikes

    bobhikes Nowoligist
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    Do you realize that there are many christian Religions out there.

    As defined here, world Christianity consists of 6 major ecclesiastico-cultural blocs, divided into 300 major ecclesiastical traditions, composed of over 33,000 distinct denominations in 238 countries,

    Each one has there own scholars, I would bet there is more than one that uses your interpretation; however, that doesn't mean it is the right interpretation.
     
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  13. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    Is it safe to claim that most Christians are also in the dark, at least in many areas of expertise; also when it comes to the Bible?

    Do you think (or have seen on RF) that some Atheists have certain things right about the Bible, which some Christians have totally wrong?

    So, in short:
    We all (Christians, and non Christians) are less perfect as we would probably hope we were
    So, we all have certain things wrong and certain things right. Even when it comes to the Bible

    So:
    It's not just "is the Atheist willing to learn (and unlearn)?"
    It's also "is the Christian willing to learn from the Atheist (and unlearn)?"

    Are we all willing to learn and unlearn?
     
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  14. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    Is it safe to claim that most Christians are also in the dark, at least in many areas of expertise; also when it comes to the Bible?

    A Close Look At Truth

    What do you think regarding The Truth (I like it Capitalized and bold):)

    First 2 questions that come to my mind are:
    1) Do you claim to know that it's possible to know the Full and Highest Truth in the Universe, for a human being?
    2) Do you claim to know that only 1 Christian denomination can be the right one, as in having the highest Truth?

    IF so:
    Then, knowing there are thousands of Christian denominations, that means that at least "All but 1 denominations" have it wrong?
    So, statistically there is a high chance that "All Christians are confused". And it's safe to conclude "it's definitely not just Atheists have things wrong"
    So, I would say "Probably we are All quite confused", when it comes to understanding the Big Fat Truth.
     
  15. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    Funny that!!! I see much projection here. What an atheist, or anyone who actually reads what is written sees is what is written. Where's a christian "interprets" cherry picks to omit verses he does not like and creates his own story based on what he wants to believe. This i feel is fantasy, not the truth of what is actually written.


    And yet what is written is written, what is interpreted has given rise yo over 200 different English language versions of the bible (who knows how many versions in other languages. Which in turn has resulted in over 50,000 different sects of christianity, none of whom agree 100% with any other sect what is the meaning.

    Fantasy, you got the right word but assigned it to the wrong group
     
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  16. Hawkins

    Hawkins Well-Known Member

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    Hmmm. This is not even logical.

    If under the assumption that God doesn't exist, it's no point to discuss a book which is supposed to be from the eyewitnesses who encountered God.
    If the assumption is this God as witnessed by humans does exist, then we need first speculate why His message must be conveyed through this book we call Bible.

    Flood is a possible truth as reflected in the different cultures. However the info we can read today are in a form of myth. We have different flood myths from different cultures. This says, even when flood is a truth, all we can read today are in a form of myths. Why? It is because humans (last time I said the same humans some have to assume that I am talking about modern humans, I don't know why), well I am talking about ancient humans before the invention of the more efficient writing tools, don't have the ability to convey such a truth. They can only convey a fact in story form and finally myth form when further distorted.

    A large portion of the Bible (more on OT) is in story form. This is necessary for info contained to remain intact, as a result of conveyed by the incapable humans but supervised by a God. It boils down to how the intact contents recorded in story form be translated back to descriptive information. You have to rely on God the author (or supervisor in a more secular sense) to have the contents translated more correctly. It is in a "the more close to the author the more you can get" manner. It is more or less like you need to have a relationship with the decoder to read more from an encrypted document.
     
  17. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    :D. This I would self created karma, both ways.
    1) Some Christians blindly believe/interpret Bible stuff, including figuratively anecdotes, literal, they create others to tell them they live in a myth.
    2) Because of these Christians Atheists starts seeing these Christians as myth believers; and telling them this truth
    3) Now these Christians getting karmic upset return the favor, and call these Atheists "you live in a fantasy world - a myth"

    I think people are quite good in creating their fantasy world, that's not only a Christian thingy, Atheist can say #MeToo; only different myth world
    So, is it wise to point fingers at others "you live in a myth world", probably not, as Jesus even pointed out:
    "seeing the mote in one’ s brother’ s eye without noticing the beam in one ’ s own"

    It's wiser to learn from the other's mistakes, and from the other's good ideas
     
  18. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    Koran says "only Allah knows the real interpretation of non-literal verses". I like that, it humbles me. And it's true. Non literal verses are free to interpret, so it's about belief, so it's not about Truth. It might lead us to the Truth.
     
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  19. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    This is one of those non-literal anecdotes, so free to interpret, and learn new lessons.
    I heard a Christian once say "the snake is the penis"
    I see the Kundalini snake in this story
    I like this anecdote
     
    #19 stvdv, Jul 31, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2020
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  20. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    Even one Christian does not know the Bible as the other Christian.

    IMO:
    IF correct Christianity-understanding is possible THEN the 30.000 (thirty thousand) Christian denominations better educate their own about it first
     
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