A Close Look At Truth

[stvdv]

Funny that!!! I see much projection here.

I agree with this projection.
I once heard "what you see in others, is also in you". Remembering this, I try to project less; I feel no need to show off about all what is in me

Where's a christian "interprets" cherry picks to omit verses he does not like and creates his own story based on what he wants to believe

I think that is the beauty of belief, you can create the version you like best; so I never understood Hell, Devil human creations; probably masochists.

This i feel is fantasy, not the truth of what is actually written.

True. And I would wish that there "is actual truth written", sometimes I even doubt that.
But then, it's a belief, so I can create truth out of untruth words even
I see Scriptures as "inspiration material", not as "emulation material".

 

[stvdv]

Which in turn has resulted in over 50,000 different sects of christianity, none of whom agree 100% with any other sect what is the meaning.

I Googled on the number in my previous reply to get the facts not too far of the Truth. Google gave me only "more than 30.000" (date 2010 though)

Could there be a human Christian denomination/sect of which it's members 100% agree? IF possible, I think you might even believe God existed

 

[ChristineM]

I agree with this projection.
I once heard "what you see in others, is also in you". Remembering this, I try to project less; I feel no need to show off about all what is in me


I think that is the beauty of belief, you can create the version you like best; so I never understood Hell, Devil human creations; probably masochists.


True. And I would wish that there "is actual truth written", sometimes I even doubt that.
But then, it's a belief, so I can create truth out of untruth words even
I see Scriptures as "inspiration material", not as "emulation material".

My idea of truth is "that which is true or in accordance with fact or reality."

In my view claiming truth because of belief is an insult to language. But hey, there are billions of people belief their faith to be truth

 

[stvdv]

In my view claiming truth because of belief is an insult to language.

True. It's an expression of ignorance, and a lie.

 

[nPeace]

I'm not sure how this connects. Not believing in God means you don't have good deep knowledge of the Bible?

Maybe you mean spiritually?

Many atheist know the Bible when they were once Christian. Missionaries have became atheist and so have ministers who have studied Christianity and know more the context than the average Christian.

Intellectually, religious beliefs doesn't matter when studying scripture. It's obvious if one doesn't believe in the Christian god they can't derive the "spiritual" context of it...speaking those atheists who were never Christian to begin with.

I think you're talking to those atheists who never been Christian.

That's a good point you made. However, they would simply have been "Christians", which really is not that much different. See Spoiler in the OP.

The Bible isn't That special that no one else can know about it spiritually but believers. It's whether one applies it to their lives that makes the difference. Discrediting atheists isn't the answer.

That's a very interesting statement.
In order to prove you wrong though, you would have to be a changed person. Since you are not, I won't be able to prove to you that you are not accurate.
Remember though, the Bible is made up of many book - 66, to be exact, and they were written by different individuals, at different time periods, so it's not like a novel, although harmonious. Thus, it can't be as simple as you are imagining.
Some parts are very simple. However, other parts are hard to understand. What makes it simple in it's entirety though, is the help of God's spirit, so yes... it is special, and not so simple for the majority.

Think of what Jesus said at Matthew 13. The illustrations sound simple right, but yet they were not understood. Why? They had to be made understandable. Until Jesus explained persons did not grasp the sense of them. This is the way of the truths in the Bible.
Of Paul's letters, it was said, "Some were hard to understand, and yet persons felt they understood, and ended up twisting the meaning, just as they twisted the scriptures. 2 Peter 3:16

 

[ecco]

Koran says "only Allah knows the real interpretation of non-literal verses". I like that, it humbles me. And it's true. Non literal verses are free to interpret, so it's about belief, so it's not about Truth. It might lead us to the Truth.

Who decides what is and what is not a "literal verse"?

 

[ecco]

I heard a Christian once say "the snake is the penis"

Sooo...

• Adam wanted to eat the apple
• Adam made Eve believe his penis was a talking snake
• Adam was the ventriloquist to his penis
• Eve ate it up (Colloquial way of saying she believed it)

What a fun story!

 

[nPeace]

It's often said that atheists know what the bible says better than Christians... which has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not that they interpret what the bible says correctly or not. Of course the fact that there are 1000's of different Christian sects suggests that Christians don't have any better grasp of how to interpret the words than atheists do.

Did you read the spoiler? Please, I invite you to do so.
It seems you missed that, as well as the connecting statement preceding and following.
I really don't want that to be missed. It's crucial to being on the same page in any discussion related to the OP.

 

[nPeace]

What you take for granted, is that you hold Truth. That is simple to test how that works in practice. I disagree with you that you do hold Truth. Now because you hold Truth, it follows I don't. But I am still here. We are in an universe where it is possible not to hold Truth, but according to your version of Truth, that is the Truth. How? Since you hold Truth, it must be the Truth that I don't and thus the Truth is that is possible not to hold the Truth.
What now? What comes next? Where do we go from here?

I would not say I hold truth. How could I?
Consider it this way... What did Jesus say?
"I am the way, the truth, and the life."
"If you remain in my word... you will know the truth."

So, the truth has been presented by Jesus, and being made available for all to attain, but did you notice, it's a growth? Jesus said, If you remain in my word... you will know the truth."
So one has to continually stick to what Jesus teaches, and they will know the truth - complete.
Right now, we can know some of the truth, and be continually adjusted in truth,; thus in a relative sense we know truth, and can teach like Jesus did, and guide persons in that truth, but we have not reached complete truth... as yet.

That's the way I see it. Do you see it that way?
That would mean though, that yes, there are persons on earth, walking in truth, and following the way to truth... and of course life - everlasting. What s day that will be.

 

[stvdv]

Adam made Eve believe his penis was a talking snake

Even now celebrities made us believe their "things" talk

on YouTube I saw: "Chrissy Teigen Makes Her Boobs Talk: 'Y'all Are Very Inclusive'."
(I think this sharing the YouTube link is a bit too much for some people and RF Rules)

 

[stvdv]

Who decides what is and what is not a "literal verse"?

Allah

 

[nPeace]

First: I am glad that you point out my mistake, so thank you.
This gives me a good opportunity to address an important issue.

When speaking about God and/or Faith "stuff" we should not make a claim "G" (Generalizing for all), according to you pointing out my mistake; I agree

I have a few simple questions to all of which you obviously will agree with a big fat YES (Unless you want to make the same mistake I made):

Simple sounds good.

1) All Christians are confused who claim "Jesus Christ is the only Truth for all" (a claim "G")

How can one be confuse about something they know. For example, when Peter responded, "You are the Christ, the son of the living God." in response to Jesus question regarding whom they thought he was, they were not confused at all. They had seen clear convincing evidence. They were fully convinced.
So no, that can't be right.
I would say the confusion exist among "Christians" (please note the quotation marks", not particularly regarding what Jesus said, but regarding both what he did said, and did not say.
Jesus explained at Matthew 15:9

2) All Christians are confused who claim "Christianity is a better path than Atheism" (a claim "G")

I don't know of any Christian that makes this comparison.
However, making such comparison gives no proof that the one saying this is confused. So no, I do not agree.
What do you believe they are confused about?

Please take note that in the OP, I make no comparison, but am pointing out an error in thinking, where such comparisons are made, and iby doing so, pointing out a truth.

3) All Christians are confused who claim "Christianity is a better path than Satanism" (a claim "G")

Same as above.

4) All Christians are confused who claim "Only true Jehova Witnesses might be saved" (a claim "G")

No Christian I know makes this claim either.
If they did, they might be confused about what might be. Saying "might be" in a statement like that suggests some uncertainty, an indication of confusion.
For the vast majority of JWs in the earth, they know that it is only those who endure faithfully to the end, that will be saved.
They also know that, as Jesus said, many will not get in, in the same way many of God's chosen fell in the wilderness, and never made it to the promised land. A lesson we all want to take to heart.
That said, we do know from scripture though, that only Jehovah's witnesses will be saved. This is highlighted in many scriptures... that unless you be a witness for Jehovah, you have no part with him. Jesus compared it to disowning him.
So to this question, I think I can answer yes, although the question has elements of misunderstanding and confusion.

5) All Christians are confused who claim "Only true Jehova Witnesses can know the correct meaning of the Bible" (a claim "G")

Hmmm.
Only true Jehovah's Witnesses....
Let me see. What is a true Jehovaah's Witness, and how does one determine that he is true, in the first place.
The question alone is confusing, so yes.

All Christians are confused who claim "The Bible is the best Scripture on Earth when it comes to the Truth" (a claim "G")

Ha Ha.
I just had to laugh. I hope you don't mind, but it sounds funny.
There is only one truth. There is never any comparison when it comes to truth. It's either true, or false. There is no such thing as best truth.
The Bible - or more accurately, the Tanakh - is the most ancient book about God. All other "scripture" following it either is claimed to be the correct scripture, or a supportive follow-on.
Just like religion, people will choose what they will accept.
However, either the Bible contains the truth, or it doesn't, and it claims to be, without any addition or subtraction.
So yes, both the question, and the claimant are confused.

7) All Christians are confused who claim "There is no other Scripture as good as the Bible when it comes to the Truth"(a claim "G")

Same as above.

8) All Christians are confused who claim "Christianity is a better path than Buddism, Hinduism, Islam or ..." (a claim "G")

As I said before, there is no better where truth is concerned. It's either the right path, or the wrong one. That's the way it is with religion... according to scripture. Matthew 7:13, 14; Ephesians 4:5
Yes, these "Christians are definitely very, very, very confused.

9) All Christians are confused who claim "Practising gay lifestyle is inferior than practising straight lifestyle" (a claim "G")

Inferior?
Please see answers to 7 and 8.

Notes:
I do not judge them, because I made no judgment (as in "it's good/bad"), just an observation. Big difference, I hope you see and understand this.
I only make the observation that all Christians are confused about what the Bible really means as well, so I did not single out Christians
And I also clearly implied IF Christians say atheists are confused, then All Christians are confused too

An observation? You accused all Christians of whom you don't even know half of them, or what they believe stvdv, and you call that an observation.
Yet you usually so quick to accuse persons of judging, who are not judging, but expressing how they feel - their opinion, or just giving their view.
You know stvdv, I must say, there are some things that truly amaze me... but I'm smiling.
I still think you mean well, and you have good intention, but that thing called sin, boy we gotta watch it uh.
I really hope your training is helping. Do you think it is?
How am I doing, would you say. Time for my licks.

 

[nPeace]

Do you realize that there are many christian Religions out there.

Many "Christian" religions, yes.

As defined here, world Christianity consists of 6 major ecclesiastico-cultural blocs, divided into 300 major ecclesiastical traditions, composed of over 33,000 distinct denominations in 238 countries,

Lots and lots of them, yes.

Each one has there own scholars, I would bet there is more than one that uses your interpretation; however, that doesn't mean it is the right interpretation.

I'm sure there are scholars who perhaps discerned that the scriptures are not to be taken as lightly, as they, when it comes to understanding them.
I'm not sure how seriously they take it though.
I was just wondering if you personally knew any of them that made reference to that scripture.

 

[stvdv]

1) All Christians are confused who claim "Jesus Christ is the only Truth for all" (a claim "G")

How can one be confuse about something they know. For example, when Peter responded, "You are the Christ, the son of the living God." in response to Jesus question regarding whom they thought he was, they were not confused at all. They had seen clear convincing evidence. They were fully convinced.
So no, that can't be right.

I did not claim that they might be (or are) confused about their own path.
I claimed that they are confused IF they think they know better than me, what is best for me
All the examples I gave were about such generalization. I put all the generalizations in red.

You told me I should not generalize about "All Christians". I admitted my mistake
Now I told you Christians should also not generalize about "(All) Others"
"Jesus is the highway for all; other paths lead to Hell" is generalization
A generalization mistake also. So, it's wrong (according to you)
Like you said, Those Christians also did not meet all the others
Those Christians did not read all the other Scriptures
Those Christians did not meet all the other Masters

QUOTE="nPeace, post: 6759710, member: 64320"]Simple sounds good.[/QUOTE]
In short: My whole point was "No human knows what is the best path for others"
They better just worry about getting their own path straightened out

 

[oldbadger]

It is often said, that Atheists know the Bible better than Christians.

Trust me when I tell you that my atheist neighbour has no clue about the bible. He just reckons that it's all .... errr..... wrong.

............... it certainly is not true when considering (1) the correct understanding of what Christianity is,.......

Ah! there are hundreds of kinds of Christianity. Which one do you belong to exactly? Which Church or Creed?

Thus, the Atheist has created a fantasy world for himself - a myth, by mistakenly thinking that he is engaging a Christian.

But you are a Christian. Yes?
I mean, all those others, other churches, other Creeds, they are not?

OK..... so let's start with discovering exactly what your creed or church is.... ok?

Is he willing to learn? Let's see.

I am a kind of atheist, atheists mostly tend to think of me as a non-theist, so here I am...... but you will need to answer my brief questions on this journey, so let's see....

 

[oldbadger]

@nPeace .... I have just read your every post and here I am on page two and you have not yet told us what church or creed of Christianity it is that you hold to.

Please tell us this, will you?

Question 2. Do you believe that the bible is without any errors, the innerrant words of God? Or...what?

 

[Jedster]

@nPeace .... I have just read your every post and here I am on page two and you have not yet told us what church or creed of Christianity it is that you hold to.

Please tell us this, will you?

Question 2. Do you believe that the bible is without any errors, the innerrant words of God? Or...what?

PMFJI
Maybe @nPeace isn't a member of any creed.
(just a thought )

 

[ecco]

Koran says "only Allah knows the real interpretation of non-literal verses". I like that, it humbles me. And it's true. Non literal verses are free to interpret, so it's about belief, so it's not about Truth. It might lead us to the Truth.

Who decides what is and what is not a "literal verse"?

Allah

You wrote: "Non literal verses are free to interpret" and, when asked who decides which verses are literal, you wrote: "Allah".

That's not very helpful. If only Allah can make that decision, how does he communicate that to The People? If he doesn't (can't), then there are no verses that can be freely interpreted.

 

[ecco]

For example, when Peter responded, "You are the Christ, the son of the living God." in response to Jesus question regarding whom they thought he was, they were not confused at all. They had seen clear convincing evidence. They were fully convinced.

Some people believed Charlie Manson was God. Some people believed David Koresh was God. They were not confused at all. They had seen clear convincing evidence. They were fully convinced.

Convincing people is not that hard. It is, therefore, completely meaningless.

 

[stvdv]

You wrote: "Non literal verses are free to interpret" and, when asked who decides which verses are literal, you wrote: "Allah".

Koran 3:7 says:
It is He Who has revealed the Book to you. Some of its verses are absolutely clear and lucid, and these are the core of the Book.5. Others are ambiguous.6 Those in whose hearts there is perversity, always go about the part which is ambiguous, seeking mischief and seeking to arrive at its meaning arbitrarily, although none knows their true meaning except Allah. On the contrary, those firmly rooted in knowledge say: 'We believe in it; it is all from our Lord alone.'7 No one derives true admonition from anything except the men of understanding.

Allah knows of course.

That's not very helpful. If only Allah can make that decision, how does he communicate that to The People? If he doesn't (can't), then there are no verses that can be freely interpreted.

And "absolutely clear and lucid" seems to me that you and I should be able to figure it out ourselves. No need for Imams even