A Close Look At Truth

[nPeace]

@Trailblazer You called to hire a carpenter to build you a wooden bench. Five persons turn up at your home to do the job.
You go outside to meet them.

Which of these persons would you take seriously, and leave at your home to build your bench?
It's an obvious answer.

Likewise, when it comes to the identity of a Christian, we don't tell them by what they say. They have the Christian identity.
Hence why Jesus said, at Matthew 7:21-23
“Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’

He can identify them, and we can too.
Would you agree?

 

[Trailblazer]

You are in luck, because I am still waiting for the election results to come in…

@Trailblazer You called to hire a carpenter to build you a wooden bench. Five persons turn up at your home to do the job.
You go outside to meet them.

Which of these persons would you take seriously, and leave at your home to build your bench?
It's an obvious answer.

It is obvious? Do you mean I would pick the one who arrived first? No, not necessarily. I would pick the one who was the best for the job, after I talked to all of them.

Likewise, when it comes to the identity of a Christian, we don't tell them by what they say. They have the Christian identity.
Hence why Jesus said, at Matthew 7:21-23
“Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’

He can identify them, and we can too.
Would you agree?

Are you saying we know a true Christian by what they do, not by what they say?

I agree that Jesus could identify them that way, but I do not agree that you can identify them that way.

 

[nPeace]

You are in luck, because I am still waiting for the election results to come in…

It is obvious? Do you mean I would pick the one who arrived first? No, not necessarily. I would pick the one who was the best for the job, after I talked to all of them.

So you are not going by what you see... why not?
How would you know they are best for the job after you talk with them?

Are you saying we know a true Christian by what they do, not by what they say?

You can tell the real carpenter, when they get to work. Right?
You can see they don't only have the right tools, but they know how to properly use them, to get the Job done.
With the Christian identify there is no difference really. The same principles apply. Would you not agree?

I agree that Jesus could identify them that way, but I do not agree that you can identify them that way.

Why would you think only Jesus could identify the true Christian, and we can't ?

 

[Trailblazer]

So you are not going by what you see... why not?
How would you know they are best for the job after you talk with them?

How would I know by looking at them? Why would it matter what they looked like?

I would know more about them after I asked them questions about how they do their work, how long it would take, how much they would charge, if they have any references, etc. I would ask to see their license so I would know they are licensed to work in my state.

You can tell the real carpenter, when they get to work. Right?
You can see they don't only have the right tools, but they know how to properly use them, to get the Job done.

I might be able to determine if they have the right tools for the job, but I would have NO WAY to know if they knew how to use those tools.

With the Christian identify there is no difference really. The same principles apply. Would you not agree?

No, I do not agree, because I could not tell of someone was a true Christian by what they looked like, by their physical appearance. I would have to know how they lived their lives; did they live according to the teachings of Jesus?

Why would you think only Jesus could identify the true Christian, and we can't?

Because I believe that Jesus was infallible so He could not be mistaken. Jesus would know our hearts and minds. By contrast, all humans are fallible, so anyone can be mistaken, and they cannot know the heart or mind of another person.

What if another Christian said you are not a true Christian, would you accept that determination? Wouldn’t you want to know what they thought that about you?

 

[nPeace]

How would I know by looking at them? Why would it matter what they looked like?

I would know more about them after I asked them questions about how they do their work, how long it would take, how much they would charge, if they have any references, etc. I would ask to see their license so I would know they are licensed to work in my state.

Okay. So you would get into details that you thought were necessary to identify a real carpenter. Good.
Why is it different for a Christian?
Why would you think we cannot get to know a real Christian, in a similar way - by what they do, or how they do their work, and their references or qualifications?
Jesus said, "All will know you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves" John 13:35
Jesus said, "If you remain in my word, you are really my disciples". John 8:31
Should we not examine those who claim to be Christian, to see if they qualify based on Jesus' "references"?

I might be able to determine if they have the right tools for the job, but I would have NO WAY to know if they knew how to use those tools.

Of course. That goes along with how they use them.

No, I do not agree, because I could not tell of someone was a true Christian by what they looked like, by their physical appearance. I would have to know how they lived their lives; did they live according to the teachings of Jesus?

Excellent!

Because I believe that Jesus was infallible so He could not be mistaken. Jesus would know our hearts and minds. By contrast, all humans are fallible, so anyone can be mistaken, and they cannot know the heart or mind of another person.

Of course, you have not concluded that the carpenter is such because you can see his heart. It was by what you observed him doing, and how he did it.
Jesus said, "...only the one doing the will of my Father . . ." Matthew 7:21
So it's not required that you look at their heart.
You look at what they are doing. Are they doing the will of the father.
The Bible spells out the will of the father for all to see, does it not?
So all you need to do, is check their story against the Christian mark... the same way you check the "carpenter's" story, against the standard of a good carpenter.

What if another Christian said you are not a true Christian, would you accept that determination? Wouldn’t you want to know what they thought that about you?

If anyone accuses another of not being a true Christian, then the onus is on that person to present the identity of a true Christian. Wouldn't you agree?
I would welcome that.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Bahais say the Christian message is corrupted. Do the Christians have anything to say about the 19th Century Iranian preacher of the Bahais?

 

[Trailblazer]

Okay. So you would get into details that you thought were necessary to identify a real carpenter. Good.
Why is it different for a Christian?
Why would you think we cannot get to know a real Christian, in a similar way - by what they do, or how they do their work, and their references or qualifications?
Jesus said, "All will know you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves" John 13:35
Jesus said, "If you remain in my word, you are really my disciples". John 8:31
Should we not examine those who claim to be Christian, to see if they qualify based on Jesus' "references"?

I would have to know that Christian personally in order to know if they were a true Christian. For example, my boss and my coworker are Christians and I have known them both for many years, so I know how they treat other people and I know something about their family life, so I believe they are true Christians because they care about other people and treat them kindly.

Of course, you have not concluded that the carpenter is such because you can see his heart. It was by what you observed him doing, and how he did it.
Jesus said, "...only the one doing the will of my Father . . ." Matthew 7:21
So it's not required that you look at their heart.
You look at what they are doing. Are they doing the will of the father.
The Bible spells out the will of the father for all to see, does it not?
So all you need to do, is check their story against the Christian mark... the same way you check the "carpenter's" story, against the standard of a good carpenter.

That is what I said above about my boss and coworker. From what I know of them, they are doing the will of the Father.

If anyone accuses another of not being a true Christian, then the onus is on that person to present the identity of a true Christian. Wouldn't you agree?
I would welcome that.

Yes, I agree. Likewise, if someone said I am not a true Baha’i, they would have to tell me what would qualify me as a true Baha’i.

 

[Hermit Philosopher]

Do those scholarly "Christians" get that account in Genesis 3 right? Not that I know of.
Do you know of any that realize God is not there judging an actual slithering reptile?

Dear nPeace

As the true and good Christian (no quotation marks) that you are, would you say that he who is attentive, humble, patient, selfless, trustworthy, trusting, forgiving, generous, etc, in his daily worldly encounters, interactions and servitudes, but who “wrongfully” thinks the passage in question symbolises something other than what you say, will be a problem in the eyes of God...? Or an insult to the memory of Jesus Christ, perhaps?

Is “true” Christianity not rather a question of how you interact with yourself and your surroundings on a daily basis? Your input in this world, so to speak?

Humbly
Hermit

 

[Goddess Kit]

The apologist will ignore reason for an illogical interpretation. After all, if any part of the bible cannot be counted upon for accuracy, let us say that the theist can cherry pick certain parts as allegorical or metaphorical, then it stands to reason that the entire thing cannot be trusted in any way on its historicity.

 

[SkepticThinker]

It is often said, that Atheists know the Bible better than Christians.
Although I would agree that this statement is true regarding the commonly held misunderstood and trivialized modern view (See Explanation), it certainly is not true when considering (1) the correct understanding of what Christianity is, and (2) the true understanding of what Atheists misunderstand.

Spoiler: Explanation

According to Wikipedia
Christians are people who follow or adhere to Christianity, a monotheistic Abrahamic religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus Christ.

If we are going to use this definition, then we cannot turn a blind eye, or ignore ignorance concerning the life and teachings of Jesus Christ.
In other words, we cannot refer to any person as Christian, regardless of if their religion and religious beliefs reflect the way Jesus lived - his actions and activities, and his teachings.
For example, suppose a religion promotes a life of luxurious living, with leaders taking prominent titles, etc., would it be correct to say that this religion follows, or reflects the life of Jesus Christ? Surely, we can agree... most certainly not! (Matthew 23)
Or suppose a religion professing Christianity, taught that Jesus did not face death, or that he is not the son of God, can we truthfully say that such religious teachings are based on Jesus' teachings? Of course not. (Matthew 20:28; Matthew 16:13-17)

Hence, it is clearly evident, that the words Christian, and Christianity are being used lightly, and with frivolousness, thus incorrectly.
With such distortion, it is easy to overlook the clear distinction between Christian and "Christian"; Christianity and "Christianity", and thus fool oneself into thinking that the "Christian" knows what they are talking about... when evidently, they don't.

Thus, the Atheist has created a fantasy world for himself - a myth, by mistakenly thinking that he is engaging a Christian.
The other way the Atheist has created his mythical world, is by deluding himself into thinking that he knows and understands full well what he reads in scripture.
To give a simple example, consider the very first book of the Bible, and just the third Chapter. Here is where we will take our first close look at truth.
Gen 3 - particularly verse 14...
Atheist think that they know all about this scripture, and God cursing the serpent. However, a close look reveals that they, as well as "Christians" are mistaken.

Was God cursing a snake?
Evidently not. How do we know? The context.
When we consider the texts closely, from verse 1-15, we realize that there is an entity involved, that is not identified at this point in time, but is revealed much later.
Verse 15 however, sheds some light on a future revelation.
God said, "... I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel.”

This is not a prophetic utterance regarding a slithery reptile.
For the Christian, this is clear. The Atheists however, is evidently in the dark.
In just that early beginning, is is clear, the Atheist does not know the Bible as the Christian does.
Is he willing to learn? Let's see.

Umm, a lot of atheists used to be Christians. Like me.

Also, given that there are thousands of different Christian denominations in existence, and given that they are all on different pages from each other when it comes to interpretation, I don't know how you can claim that you know the way you are interpreting it is the correct one.

And finally, what you really seem to be saying is that you have to be a Christian believer in order to interpret, analyze, etc. words in an ancient text. I don't know how you can justify that.

 

[metis]

Also, given that there are thousands of different Christian denominations in existence, and given that they are all on different pages from each other when it comes to interpretation, I don't know how you can claim that you know the way you are interpreting it is the correct one.

Yep, and you well know how that works, namely my denomination is right and all others are bogus to varying degrees. Heck, we cannot find evidence without doubt that deities even exist, and yet some try to tell us how they supposedly even think.

Just to be clear, I do believe "Something" along this line exists, but just don't ask me exactly what or how that Something is.

 

[nPeace]

I would have to know that Christian personally in order to know if they were a true Christian. For example, my boss and my coworker are Christians and I have known them both for many years, so I know how they treat other people and I know something about their family life, so I believe they are true Christians because they care about other people and treat them kindly.

I think you know of Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Atheists, etc. who treat others kindly.
I know of some very hospitable Hindus, and African.
When Jesus said, "All will know you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves", does that sound to you, as though Jesus is talking about one or two individuals knowing that a couple is showing kindness?
It is evident that Jesus is referring to a group of worshippers, and their having love among themselves, being evident by all - that is, all nations.
In other words, no matter which part of the world they live, Christians - those who follow Christ and his teachings - his disciples, are identified, by the love they have among themselves.
If you see the opposite, then the claim that these are Christian, is false.

That is what I said above about my boss and coworker. From what I know of them, they are doing the will of the Father.

Okay. Could you show me what the will of the father is, since you believe you have identified it.

Yes, I agree. Likewise, if someone said I am not a true Baha’i, they would have to tell me what would qualify me as a true Baha’i.

Agreed.
We agree though, that just having a Bible, calling on the name Jesus, and going to a building of worship does not make one Christian. Therefore, whole groups of persons, can claim to be Christian, but are not.
What then qualifies or identifies us as being Christian?
We must be able to see that the group has love among themselves - that is worldwide unity of love, and the teachings must be in line with Jesus'.
(1 Peter 2:17) . . .have love for the whole association of brothers. . .
(John 4:23, 24) 23 Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.”

How can we worship God, if we don't know that there is truth, and what that truth is?
Image what Jesus will say to the millions that are saying the Bible does not say anything. When he actually says, "Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word is truth." (John 17:17)
I can only say, it will be a sad day for them, evidently. Matthew 7:21-23

Dear nPeace

As the true and good Christian (no quotation marks) that you are, would you say that he who is attentive, humble, patient, selfless, trustworthy, trusting, forgiving, generous, etc, in his daily worldly encounters, interactions and servitudes, but who “wrongfully” thinks the passage in question symbolises something other than what you say, will be a problem in the eyes of God...? Or an insult to the memory of Jesus Christ, perhaps?

Is “true” Christianity not rather a question of how you interact with yourself and your surroundings on a daily basis? Your input in this world, so to speak?

Humbly
Hermit

Hi Hermit.
In order to clearly answer your question, I would have to understand what you mean by humble - Do you consider humble to include listening to God through his word and being willing to follow what he says in his word, or do you mean humble only from a fleshly point of view?
There are many humble people in the sense from the later perspective - including Atheists, but this is not humility from God's point of view, as stated in the Bible. (1 Corinthians 3:18, 19)
What humility do you have in mind? What does it involve?

 

[nPeace]

The apologist will ignore reason for an illogical interpretation. After all, if any part of the bible cannot be counted upon for accuracy, let us say that the theist can cherry pick certain parts as allegorical or metaphorical, then it stands to reason that the entire thing cannot be trusted in any way on its historicity.

An "illogical interpretation"? What do you mean? Can you give an example please?
Accuracy of what? Can you explain?
For example, accuracy of God, Jesus, the kingdom... All of these are accurately identified in the scriptures.
Because they are people used to undermine faith of believers, by twisting the truth, and making up conflicting doctrines, does not mean the Bible cannot be counted on for accuracy.
It simply means, you cannot count on those claiming to represent the Bible, or Christianity for accuracy.
The Bible itself accurately foretold this, and warned about it.

(Acts 20:29, 30) 29 I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among you and will not treat the flock with tenderness, 30 and from among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves.

(2 Corinthians 11:13-15) 13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps disguising himself as an angel of light. 15 It is therefore nothing extraordinary if his ministers also keep disguising themselves as ministers of righteousness. But their end will be according to their works.

(1 Timothy 4:1) However, the inspired word clearly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired statements and teachings of demons,

(2 Timothy 4:3, 4) 3 For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the wholesome teaching, but according to their own desires, they will surround themselves with teachers to have their ears tickled. 4 They will turn away from listening to the truth and give attention to false stories.

Did you notice how sadistic these persons are? They set out to deliberately mislead persons, including you and I.
Evidently, they have been successful with much of mankind.
Now that you have been made aware of that. Is it possible you are one of their victims?

Umm, a lot of atheists used to be Christians. Like me.

Also, given that there are thousands of different Christian denominations in existence, and given that they are all on different pages from each other when it comes to interpretation, I don't know how you can claim that you know the way you are interpreting it is the correct one.

And finally, what you really seem to be saying is that you have to be a Christian believer in order to interpret, analyze, etc. words in an ancient text. I don't know how you can justify that.

I'm not saying any of the things you are saying here.
I think you probably need to look at the OP of the other thread.
If you read the Op of this thread however, you would notice that none of what you said here could be accurate.
Do you understand what a Christian is?
Am I a Christian because I hold a Bible, and say the name Jesus Christ?
Am I a carpenter because I hold a hammer in my hand and carry tools. How would one know what a carpenter is, or a Christian, more to the point?

 

[Hermit Philosopher]

Hi Hermit.
In order to clearly answer your question, I would have to understand what you mean by humble - Do you consider humble to include listening to God through his word and being willing to follow what he says in his word, or do you mean humble only from a fleshly point of view?

Both, my friend!
In context of what I was saying, I was thinking of both.

Imagine someone on a daily basis, genuinely trying to follow the ideal of Christ (despite knowing that they are not Christ and are therefore likely to fail in multiple ways), but viewing the biblical passage you addressed in your OP differently to you...

My question was: would such a person
be a problem to God ...to Christianity? And if not, why - as a Christian - do you consider your interpretation of scripture a requirement for true Christianity?

Then, I went on to suggest that perhaps “true” Christianity instead is more a question of how we interact with ourselves and our surroundings on a daily basis... our input in this world, so to speak...

Humbly
Hermit

 

[nPeace]

Both, my friend!
In context of what I was saying, I was thinking of both.

Imagine someone on a daily basis, genuinely trying to follow the ideal of Christ (despite knowing that they are not Christ and are therefore likely to fail in multiple ways), but viewing the biblical passage you addressed in your OP differently to you...

My question was: would such a person
be a problem to God ...to Christianity? And if not, why - as a Christian - do you consider your interpretation of scripture a requirement for true Christianity?

Then, I went on to suggest that perhaps “true” Christianity instead is more a question of how we interact with ourselves and our surroundings on a daily basis... our input in this world, so to speak...

Humbly
Hermit

I understand your viewpoint Hermit.
I use the Bible, because it is the authority of what is right and true, where our worship of God is concerned.
At least for those endeavoring to follow Christ, since other religions persons like Hindu, Muslim, Buddhism, etc., have their own teachings about what God says, and how he communicates.

What I read in the Bible shows me this...
1) Jesus chose persons whom he gave the work of making disciples.
(Luke 8:1) Shortly afterward he traveled from city to city and from village to village, preaching and declaring the good news of the Kingdom of God. And the Twelve were with him. . .

(Luke 10:1, 2) 1 After these things the Lord designated 70 others and sent them out by twos ahead of him into every city and place where he himself was to go. 2 Then he said to them: “Yes, the harvest is great, but the workers are few. Therefore, beg the Master of the harvest to send out workers into his harvest.

(Matthew 28:18-20) 18 Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. 19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

(Acts 1:8) But you will receive power when the holy spirit comes upon you, and you will be witnesses of me in Jerusalem, in all Judea and Samaria, and to the most distant part of the earth.”

2) These persons along with others who listened to them, on humbly listening to and obeying Jesus, were able to make up the Christian congregation, which Jesus started by holy spirit. Acts 2:

3) All who listened to them and humbly obeyed what they saw was the truth, became joined to the congregation.
This was the arrangement. There was no other. (Acts 2:37-47 ; Acts 8:26-40 ; Acts 10)

Am I wrong to follow this arrangement, and stick to it, or should I follow traditions of men that deviated from the way of Christ's leadership?
The contrast must be considered, and avoided.
It is a serious thing, because it means our life.
If we fall victim to false religion which Satan uses, we have no one to blame but ourselves.

(Matthew 7:21-23) 21 “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’

I know that the truly humble person will find God, and join his congregation. I know this because that is what scripture says, and I have seen it - God is the one who draws humble people to himself - John 6:44.
He knows their heart. So I do not worry that the humble will find truth. I know they will. God opens the door to them.

When a person is humble they will not insist on their way - holding on to religion or traditions that suits them. They will let go, and leave those religions, as they are commanded to do. Revelation 18:4
Just as Saul did.

Did I say anything that is wrong, or not in agreement with scripture?