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Featured A challenge to all Christians

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Harikrish, Nov 20, 2017.

  1. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find Genesis 2:17 does state the cause of death: Eat and you will die.
    By God saying Not to eat from His one-and-only tree then that was the law of the land.
    By saying do Not eat was as if God put up a No trespassing sign on His tree.
    They broke the Law of the Land and they paid the warning death-penalty price for their deliberate crime/sin.
     
  2. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    They did die after eating. True they did Not die within that 24-hour day, but they died within that 1,000-year day.
    In other words, No one could live past 1,000 years.
    I find Adam and Methuselah died before reaching age 1,000. Notice 950 years for father Adam as per Genesis 5:5.
    Because we are innocent of what Adam and Eve did is why Jesus will come and undo all the damage that Adam and Satan brought upon us. This is to take place during Jesus' coming millennium-long day of governing over Earth for a thousand years.
     
  3. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    My understanding of the word 'original ' would mean: first.
    The first sin I find in Scripture was a lie told by Satan at Genesis 3:4 that Adam and Eve would Not die.
    So, original sin for Satan was that he became the father ( or life giver ) to the lie - John 8:44.
    Original or first sin for Adam and Eve was the crime of breaking God's 'law of the land' to Not eat from God's tree.
    So, I don't understand how ' original ' or ' first ' sin is Not a Bible teaching because there was No sin here on Earth before Satan and Adam and Eve sinned. They started sin by being the first to originate sin. Adam and Eve by breaking God's do-not-touch from the forbidden tree law.
     
  4. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur Well-Known Member

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    First off, this site is so overrun with atheists that there is no peace to answer things spiritual at all.

    Secondly, you seem to have your dogma set in your mind. These things are very much about a harmonious interpretation, and if we have ca. 30000 different denominations calling themselves Christian, how do you think that if I cannot get them to agree that I would be able to agree with you! You are asking for the impossible on a site dedicated to atheism. Both things make this exercise unprofitable to pursue.

    I could argue the scriptures with you, but you wouldn't agree though I have the background in the scriptures to do so.
    When I see the way you treat the scriptures above, I know we have no common ground.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  5. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    Think of the fruit as the law. The direction to enter the garden is like the direction to enter the Temple -- West. The tent of meeting and temple are laid out like a journey to and from the garden of Eden (or the garden is laid out like them). As you travel towards the holy place you are going towards the ark in the same direction as if traveling to Eden and the tree of life, traveling West. You cannot go into the unreachable place behind its thick wall, cannot complete your journey. That way is guarded. At the wall there is probably some crying, listening and transformation, perhaps analogous to the praying which happens at the 'Wailing wall' in Israel today. In the holy place is bread laid on a table, and it just sits there making a nice smell. There is also a lamp that burns. There's always a smell of fresh bread and burning oil. The bread is not consumed, and the fire keeps burning. It is a puzzle.
     
  6. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    I’d like to say one thing (and I don’t want you to think ill of me, but I’m saying it to benefit you):

    You are reading the same words that Newton, Boyle, Kepler, etc., had read, and it strengthened their faith in God and His Love. Do you really think that your opposite understanding of those events is more accurate than theirs?

    Because your understanding is opposite. It destroys faith in God.
    Might you be trying to understand this event, without taking all the Scriptures into consideration, ie., out of context? You are.

    Here are some Scriptures that have a bearing on the events in the Garden of Eden account:

    2 Peter 3:8, (to God) “a thousand years is one day.” They died within that “day”.

    Romans 5:12....so there is a Scripture; remember, you said there wasn’t? (There are others.)

    How loving would it be for God (1 John 4:8) to tell them, “If you eat from the tree, you’ll die,” if they didn’t know what death was?
    That would be cruel.
    They did understand, because they had seen the animals die. Jehovah God’s purpose for animals wasn’t to live forever, only man. As a son of God (Luke 3:38), Adam could have enjoyed that prospect. We can have that opportunity in the future...as humans!
    Revelation 21:3-4.

    Take care.
     
  7. user4578

    user4578 Member

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    I would say it is of the likeness of Ester 6:13, falling thou will fall, or dying thou will die; being an imperfect verb form, it indicates a continuous action, one which started on that day, and ended much later. Also related is Psalms 104:29, though it uses a different imperfect verb. Further, the original KJV 1611 has for Genesis 2:17 "dying thou shalt die" in the margin.
     
  8. Profound Realization

    Profound Realization Active Member

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    I like this explanation.

    Adam and Eve: The Story of Human Consciousness
     
  9. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    Apparently you didn't notice you are in a debate section?

    And this site is not overrun with Atheists. This site has Agnostics, Atheists, and many religions.

    That is what makes it so interesting here.

    Obviously so do you.

    How many time are you going to say such baloney?

    This is usually the kind of reply we get when someone can't rebut the other person's rebuttal.

    *
     
  10. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur Well-Known Member

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    I will answer you this once. Did you notice the name of this site? Religious Forums, in case you missed it. I didn't come here to debate atheists or unbelievers.

    Not interested in your or their beliefs. If there is an interesting exchange that is a bit fun, fine. All this other mean stuff, frankly keep it to yourself. There is very little religious communication on this site, and when there is - it is met by a legion of atheists.

    I am sure you are going to have the last word in this exchange, it seems the way of the atheist here. I will let you have it for I shall not answer your next post if any.
     
  11. Ingledsva

    Ingledsva HEATHEN ALASKAN

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    Apparently you also didn't notice that there are other forums besides religion on this site.

    Also, everyone on the site can join in religious debates, - religious or not, - because religion affects them.

    *
     
  12. Harikrish

    Harikrish Active Member

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    If Jesus had spoken truthfully and plainly people might have understood him. But instead, he only spoke in parables that no one understood which was the primary reason they rejected and crucified him.
    John 16:25 "Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father.
     
  13. Harikrish

    Harikrish Active Member

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    A law or command is null and void if it is based on a false premise. God told Adam not to eat the forbidden fruit for in/on the day he ate it he would die. Eve consulted with the serpent who assured her she would not die but become like God, that God was lying. It turns out the serpent was right, Eve ate the fruit and did not die. So God was lying. Adam saw Eve was still alive after eating the forbidden fruit and he ate some too. The serpent was right their eyes were opened and even God confirmed they became like God. So the command was based on a lie, a false premise and therefore null and void.
     
  14. Harikrish

    Harikrish Active Member

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    God did not tell them what the tree of life was for. It is only after they ate the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil and because it made them like God, God was resentful and decided to deny them access to the tree of life which would have allowed them to live forever.

    God confirms in scriptures he was lying because he offers the same explanation as the serpent offered to Eve :" Eat from it and your eyes will be opened and you will be like God knowing good and evil."

    Genesis 3:22 And the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

    God goes a step further and stops Adam and Eve from reaching out to take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

    So not only were Adam send Eve created as mortals. They were now denied access to the tree of life which would have allowed them to live forever. They certainly did not die as God had warned, in fact he said they would continue to live and work which totally contradicted his warning that they would die if they ate the firbidden fruit.

    Genesis 3: 23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side[e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

    So we know death did not come into the world because Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Death come into the world when God killed the first animals to make garments of skin for Adam and Eve and because he denied access to Adam and Eve the tree of life which would have allowed them to live forever.

    Thank you for responding to my OP.
     
  15. Harikrish

    Harikrish Active Member

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    The scriptures are clear about God's warning.

    God did say to Adam when he ate the fruit he would certainly die. Adam at the fruit but didn't die. He went on to live to 930 years, longer than any known human. The fruit actually prolonged his life.

    The KJV is more useful here.
    Genesis 2:16-17King James Version (KJV)
    16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

    17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

    Here we see God saying specifically in/on that day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. The fruit from the tree of life was supposed to be poisonous. But we know from the serpent it was just to scare them because the fruit would actually open their eyes and they would become like God possessing the knowledge of good and evil. God had ulterior motives for keeping the couple stupid. He like watching then running around naked.
     
  16. Kemosloby

    Kemosloby Well-Known Member
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    You just refuse to get it. Adam and Eve were immortal before eating the fruit. They could have been alive for a million years for all we know. But after they ate the fruit they became mortal flesh and died within the 1,000 year day as God said they would.

    2 Peter 3:8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.
     
  17. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    No, the Garden Story expressly denies that Adam and Eve were immortal. In Genesis 3, God states his reasons for expelling Adam and Eve from the Garden (note that sin and disobedience are not mentioned):

    22 Then the Lord God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever" ─ 23 therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden.
    That is, it was to STOP Adam and Eve from becoming immortal, and thereby becoming equals of God.
     
  18. Kemosloby

    Kemosloby Well-Known Member
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    They had already been living forever on the tree of life. Lest they reach forth and continue eating from the tree of life and live forever. Being expelled from the garden cut them off from the immortality provided them by eating from the tree of life.
     
  19. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    You can't have read it, or you'd know it says nothing of the kind.

    Or to put that another way, quote me the verse that says they ever ate from the tree of life at any point.
     
  20. Kemosloby

    Kemosloby Well-Known Member
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    Quote me a verse that says they didn't. They were free to eat from every tree except the tree of knowledge. There is no reason to believe they had not been eating from the tree of life.
     
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